1902 roller

[bigted]

DID IT...GOT A ROLLER AFTER LOOKING FOR SOOOOO LONG. it is a 1902 rolling block remington and dont think it is a military gun. it is a 7 mm so i figure it be a 7x57 mauser chamber. will see when i get it shipped to me.

the stock appears to have been re-finished so the collecters value is bust but i want a shooter anyway and that big dollar value on an otherwise tight safe gun adds to squat for me. only better could have been to get a 50-70 in good sharp shape but if this does not work out then for the price i paid i should be able to re-barrel and get the chamber i desire which would be a 50-70 gubberment.

any words of wisdom from yall? it was advertised as a good bore with a black bore...that didnt make sense to me but dont know.

anyway more when the rifle is in my hands........but YAHOOOOO!!!!!!!

[frnkeore]

That most likely means that it has strong lands and the grooves are dark and rough but, you won't really know how it is until you clean it good.

Frank

[powderburnerr]

There are a couple different 7mms one is spanish and the other is reformando I believe the spanish is the odd ball in that it is in between the other two. it isnt a problem but it does make you scratch your head if you are expecting something else.

[bigted]

guess another question is this...is a 1902 action of the newer steel and production to withstand the smokeless preassure? if this shoots good i may leave it as is but i wanted to land a action that would withstand the smokless preassures as i want to build another kind of rifle if this barrel wont shoot.

thinkin on a 50-70 or maybe a 50-90 [ 50 2.5]. but i would want to be able to shoot lower preassure smokless loads if the spirit moved me.

which brings me to another point which is kinda the same and it is thusly....is the green mountain barrels tough enough for lower preassure smokless loads? like in the 35 to 40 thousand psi area?

[frnkeore]

If it's a 1902 model, it's made for smokeless. Keep your pressures under 36,000 CUP

Frank

[John Taylor]

The 1902 stamp is about the last date they used. The action was made up to 1910. There were a few chambered to the 30-03 ( fore runner of the 30-06). If the action is in good shape it will handle things like the 30-30 and 30-40 with no problem. Going to the 50-70 may have some clearance problems for the large rim and the 50-90 you may need to take a little off the hammer. Most work fine with the 45-70.
Trigger pull will most likely be 15-20 pounds. You can file the trigger spring way down to help and cleaning up the sear and hammer notch will help get it down.

[bigted]

thanks for that John. i dont have it in my hands yet but will as soon as the seller gets home within the next week im hoping.

id really like a 50-70 but the 38-55 is tempting as well. i have a 38 now but my present one is a heavy bench shooter and a little heavy for packing...thought id build a 50 of some kind as the game collecting would be terrific i think. would really like a 50/2.5 but dont know if i want that much horsepower.

these newer rollers sound like they are pretty strong...iv read about them being on the par strength wise with the sharps design but i find this kinda hard to believe. what is your outside psi strength limit that you would put to this old girl considering that it is tight and sound?

[Buckshot]

.................The first smokless Rem RB's was the model 1897, and for some reason they took the much earlier bar extractor. I have one and the barrel that was on it was stamped on top "7mm SM" which stands for 7mm Spanish Mauser. Since Span was the first user of the 7x57, it was known widely as the 7mm Spanish. The original barrel was slap wore out from corrosive ammo, and I was lucky enough to find a like new take off barrel. This might have been from a M1902, I don't know for sure. The barrel is simply stamped "7mm". I did shoot the first barrel and neither it nor the replacement barrel exhibit any headspace problems.

The cartridge case is fully contained within the chamber, and I fail to see an issue with headpsace? If the shoulder has to blow forward some, simply neck size and go on about your business, and do a modified FL sizing when the cases become difficult to chamber. I keep remembering the guy at the range with his new 30-06, who was happily merrily shooting 308 ammo in it without a single problem! If that isn't a headspace issue, I don't know what is. If the face of the breechblock closes flat against the barrel with the hammer under it, you're gold. The new barrel does have one issue I wish it didn't. It has a chamber neck a tad too large in OD. A fired case will almost allow a 30 cal slug to seat:-) Whatever, it certainly doesn't affect the rifle's accuracy any at all.

A freind of mine bought a M1902 that is like brand new, with really nice case colors and still had cosmoline oozing out from under the rear sight spring. I don't recall how his barrel was marked.

Remington did offer a #5 sporter that was a nice looking outfit, and I have an article about it. Really the article was about a guy who was remodeling a smokless action INTO a #5 sporter, and in the course of the article there was quite a bit of info on the #5 including photos of old period advertising. This rifle was available in several calibers. I'd heed the recomendations of others and keep the pressures sensible. A good load that does, if you take it to shoot jacketed is a casefull of WC872 or WC860 surplus ball and a Rem 175 CL. From my 29" bbl it gives the original 2400 fps design velocity, burns very clean and is nicely accurate.

...............Buckshot

[bravokilo]

The new barrel does have one issue I wish it didn't. It has a chamber neck a tad too large in OD. A fired case will almost allow a 30 cal slug to seat:-) Whatever, it certainly doesn't affect the rifle's accuracy any at all.



...............Buckshot

My 1902 had the same problem. A little hard on the brass (neck splits). I fixed it. A little crude but it worked. I had some .30 carbine steel cases and I cut a small (7mm neck length) section off and roughed up the outside of the case. I slipped that over the neck of a loaded round and chambered and fired it. It's in there! I have tried to get it out because it is a little short and leaves a ridge at the base of the neck. I did this many years ago and I have better equipment now to do a neater job of it, but it won't budge. Oh well, the necks don't split anymore!

[Ed in North Texas]

Buckshot, Thanks for the sane answer to the 7x57mm Roller, or any single shot/bolt action rifle with excess headspace (as long as you reload for it). IIRC (too lazy to go look) my 1910 barrel is marked 7mm only.

These RBs intended for smokeless were also made in .303 British, .30-40, 7.62x54mm (allegedly for an Imperial Russian contract), 7.65x53mm (IIRC) and in 8x50R Lebel for the French in WW I (I believe this was the last contract for the RB which Remington had, using machinery which was sitting idle). And Number 1s were converted to the 8x58mm in Denmark and Sweden. There is occasionally a mention that some 1902s also were produced in .30-06 for a Columbian (?) contract.

And there were many RBs custom barreled in cartridges such as the .257 Roberts.

Ed

The action is quite strong, but lacks ability to handle gas if a case fails or primer is pierced.

[frnkeore]

I have a 1897 RB that I had rebarreled to 45/70. I'll add a couple of things to this thread regarding safety and headspace of these fine rifles.

1. If your conserned about gas leakage, drill one or more .078 holes at the junction of the firing pin body to where the firing pin diameter starts when the firing pin is in it rearward possition.

2. The Rb's are said to have a problem with headspace. What the real problem is, is that the breech block "springs" back under pressure and will stretch the case heads at some pressure based on the diameter (area) of the case head. It's not dangerous but, DO NOT reuse the cases or continue shooting at that pressure, back off untill there is no more stretching no matter what you think the pressure may be. I found that my 45/70 RB would stretch at 39 gr of Rx7 with a 430 gr bullet, that not a high pressure load.It ruined about 10 cases for me.

For military use, they didn't care about reusing brass and I never heard of a case failure in those applications but, I would think that the 7.62 Russian and '06's would have stretched cases.

Frank

PS
There is no way to stop the springing because of the leverage that the design uses on the two pins (breech block and hammer)
to the center line of the chamber.

[bigted]

i just got an answer from 'Dennis Palidino' at green mountain barrels and his answer to my #4 contour 38-55 barrel was that it is a 'high pressure' barrel and thusly would withstand the 40k pressure im looking for. i sposed that the 50-70 bore will withstand anything im going to want to run thru with the cast boolits...and really would be cool for the 38-55 bore that would be my second choice in a bit liter configuration.

so thought id post my findings so far and if the action will withstand the 35 to 40 k pressures then all my fears are laid to rest. i know this is not a ruger #1 so i can build with confidence just about anything i desire on it if it dosnt shoot as is.

got all the paperwork in order so am waiting on the post office at x-mas time.

[bigted]

this is very interesting about the trends that happen here i think. first there is no mention of a style of rifle for mounths then there is an over abundance of threads on such as this...rollers.

anyway i finally got my greedy hands on mine and man im very happy...PHOTOS WILL FOLLOW AS SOO AS I GET MY SLOBBERS OFF IT. the wood is very dark and has what appears to be a more modern bright shine to it...almost like shelack[spelling] . it looks sound and the action is very snappy with the ejector working well with a snappy action as well. the hammer is tight and my goodness what a trigger pull...will have to work on this . no cleaning rod tho...will have to search out one if it is goint to stay in origalal shape as it needs one and a bayonet as well to hook up to the under lug on the forend tip.. im very happy so far and as mentioned...photos will follow.

[frnkeore]

"it was advertised as a good bore with a black bore...that didnt make sense to me but dont know."

Tell us what the bore is actually like.

Frank

[bigted]

the dark bore is turning into a real job. it is filled with crud and after a few runs of my bore brush [brass] it became clear that the bore probably has not been scrubbed for a very long time. the rifling looked good and defined when i started but after 100 scrubs with the brush with a generous application of shooters choice every 10 strokes ...it apears that im only now getting down to the true bore and with a bunch of crud left to go. thus the dark bore that was described.

when looking into it before starting the cleaning action...the rifling looked very sharp and defined but after starting to clean it they are not as sharp as they looked at first. im not discouraged tho as this still can be a good bore if i can get down to the metal without all the gunk that was in it.

overall im still very proud of getting it tho and i discovered a nice find with the over heavy trigger pull...i pulled the trigger with the rolling block open and then closed the action to see if the trigger was going to hold after being squeezed with the action open...sure enough it held in a safe way and then pulling the trigger it breaks with only 2 to 3 lbs pull. this surprise led me down the path to see if it would happen all the time. sure enough it works every time and i only have to open the roller just enough to hold the hammer then pull the trigger to "set" it...then close the roller and gently pull the trigger with it in the "set" configuration to get the lite trigger pull i had hoped for. as the hammer is pulled all the way to the rear it sets in the deepest portion of the hammer notch and this has to be at least 7 to 10 lbs pull to release the hammer...so for hunting it would be fine for snap shooting but when i wanna set it with the time to do it rite...ill have a dandy lite trigger pull for deliberate shots at long range.

got pic's of her and will work on getting them posted next...while the barrel sets with shooters choice in it for another go-round with the brass brush.

[bigted]

so these are not the best pictures but they will have to do for now.

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/1902roller014.jpg

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/1902roller013.jpg

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/1902roller011.jpg

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/1902roller009-1.jpg

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/1902roller008.jpg

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/1902roller006.jpg

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/1902roller003.jpg

and im going to include this but dont think it will do the bore justice.

http://i777.photobucket.com/albums/yy55/bigted1956/1902roller002.jpg

there she is and im just tickled to have it. i believe this garish shiney wood is overdone so am thinking about stripping it and re-finishing with an oil style finish. overall im happy with it and the action is very sharp and tight so all is well so far...gonna shoot it with a lite load of 36 grains of imr 4064 behind a hornaday 175 grain round point this afternoon so will report the first firing later.

[MtGun44]

Nice looking rifle, and the bore looks pretty good too, although these pix are hard to take and
hard to evaluate from afar.

With the sight all the way down, mine hits dead on the sights with that load at 100 yds.

Hodgdon shows 35.2 as 44,700 psi, with a Nosler partition 175 gr which is a much harder
bullet (solid copper web in the middle) than the Hornady 175 with it's thinner jacket and
full lead core, so this is just a hair above what they recommend.

I have used this load in mine many times, but maybe you want to try 33 and work up from that
since yours may have a tighter chamber or bore. I am guessing that with the very loose
chamber and throat in my gun that the actual pressures are well below what a nice tight
SAAMI spec presssure barrel chamber will produce. Mine has slightly protruding primers with this load,
which is a sign of a low pressure load in a long headspace chamber. The pressure is not enough to
stretch the brass enough to push the case head back all the way to reseat the primer.

I have used some hotter loads that leave the primers flush, but I don't get quite the accuracy
and it seems safer to use the lower pressure loads.

I shot a friend's #5 RB 7x57 when I was a teen and we moved away, and I bought my own rifle
many years later. Somehow the sights got much smaller and harder to see between 16 and
55 years of age. ;-)


Bill

[bigted]

yes those sites somehow got smaller and harder to see for my 55 year old eyes as well. i had an old argentine 7x57 mauser when i was a kid...[ my first centerfire...39.95 in a barrel covered in cosmoline ] and that had this small v in the rear as well as the narrow post in front that didnt seem so hard to see way back then...think i was 14 or 15 and bought it with my hay money ]...

if this cleans up well enough and shoots small enough groups [ i doubt that it wil tho with this mess im getting out of the barrel now] then ill probably try to get a tang sight for it but i wanna make sure im not going to ruin something that ill regret later.

lots of cancer under the wood tho on the barrel outside and a bit next to the reciever where the forend sets against the action but if it is a shooter then ill still leave it alone.

i did shoot 6 rounds in the yard this am and it miss-fired on 2 of these and i had to re-cock and squeeze off another hit on the primer whereupon they lit up on the second hit ... so i spose that the chamber is a bit deep on this one too.

im thinkin that the dark stuff on the grooves will have covered a bunch of pits n rotten stuff as well so my hopes for a shootable barrel is waning but still have to dig down to the bottom of stuff before its decision time.

[MtGun44]

Correct taht load to 35 gr 4064 under 175 Hornady RN.

Look at the other 1902 RB thread for some pix.

Bill

[bigted]

i descuvered what i think is the problem with the miss-fires in this roller...upon removing all the moving parts for a more in depth cleaning i decided to remove the firing pin and the pin retractor...the retractor lookd fine...a little use showing altho...but when i remover the retaining pin that holds the friing pin in the block it came out in 2 pieces. so until i get another pin i will resist doing any more shooting till it is replaced.