Introduction

[GerryM]

Hi Guys.
I just wanted to introduce myself.
My name is Gerry,
If you look at my profile you will se that I'm retired and a benchrest shooter.
I have been swaging bullets for quite a long time.
I make benchrest quality bullets in 224, 243 an d 30 calibers.
Most of my dies are the expensive ones that i have aquired over the years.
I have dies from many makers.
If anyone needs help making high quality bullets just ask.
Right now i'm trying to get my hydraulic press running and set up for Jacket makeing.
Any help would be appreciated.
Take care Gerry

[BT Sniper]

Welcome to the sight. Sounds like you have just as much to offer us as any of us may have to offer you. Look forward to hearing and seeing more about your shooting and swaging adventures.

Making jackets? From cut guilding metal disks? Cool!

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[GerryM]

Thanks for the welcome Bt ""'
I stumbeled on this site by chance, It was lucky find.
The people posting seem to know quite abit about swaging and building dies and die sets.
The photos are great.

[DukeInFlorida]

Gerry,

Welcome to Cast Boolits, and especially welcome to our Swaging area of discussion. There's wealth of knowledge hanging around here, and we welcome all input.

I've been casting for decades, but the swaging stuff is somewhat new to me.

[GerryM]

Thank you for the welcome' Ive been swaging for longer then I want to admit'
I hope i can help someone . Right now i'm trying to get started in jacket makeing.

[Reload3006]

Pretty new here myself but Welcome. Started swaging a while ago like you i'm using the more expensive stuff. Have been working on my own tubing jacket dies. Close but no cigar yet but its getting there. Have been considering the strip for jackets too.

[BT Sniper]

I wasn't sure if Gerry plans to make jackets from strips (cut disks) and draw jackets or form them from tubing but I'm anxious to see. I'm going to make some 30 cal jackets real soon as well from 5/16 copper tubing. Just need a minute of time for my personal projects.

Good shooting

BT

[martin]

GerryM,

Welcome to the forum.

I too have been swaging on and off since the mid 70's. My interests are very similar to your in that I am a bench rest shooter and swage 22, 6mm and 30 cal for myself and a few select friends.

Much of what I have in the way of swaging dies I have purchased used along the way but have made several sets myself over the last couple of years. The process of making dies has been challenging, intersting, and rewarding.

I must say that I have looked at making my own copper jackets several times and each time came to the conclusion that it was unlikely that I could turn out quality jackets as good as Berger J4's. Perhaps you could post how you are going about doing this and if you think your jackets will be of bench rest quality?

Welcome and best regards,
Martin

[MIBULLETS]

Hi Gerry, as the others said, welcome. I would love to hear about your benchrest bullet process. I currently make 22, 35, and 8 mm bullets. I also make tubing jackets for my 35 bullets.

You mentioned a hydrolic press, is it similar to the Corbin types that are single stage or are you looking at something more progressive and automated?

[GerryM]

Hi Guys I plan on makeing jackets from strip guilding metal. Ive looked at KTN dies and they are a step in the right direction. I have also looked at corbins style of die and did some research on jacket drawing. I'm in the planning drawing stages of the Process.
Ive looked at some coining dies so far. Corbins are a two stage and KTn are a single stage.
Blanking coins is the first step.
I have a Dennison Hydraulic press 2 tons . The ram is in the top and is threaded for punch holders. theres 10 inches or more of daylight.{open area} On the press. 2 1/2 inch stroke
I have to make a table for the dies before anything else. I also have a Lathe and do some chambering but not really a lot of machine work. I have made punches and sizing dies/
I have a die maker willing to make the tools that i need for the complete process.

[GerryM]

The bullet making process is pretty straigh forward. I use J4 precision jacket. I'm hopeing to make my own of the same quality. I do things bit different then some bullet makers. i was included on a thread on benchrest central. I wound up being quite long with a lot of information from many bullet and die makers. What would you like to know about the process that i use? I'm willing to share.

[MIBULLETS]

I have read that piece on Bench Rest Central. A very interesting read. It looks like they have removed some of it. I just looked at it and it is much shorter than I remember.

I was just currious how your method compared to the what others shared in that article. Nothing really specific.

[martin]

GerryM,

When you say that you do things a bit different than some bullet makers, what do you do differently?

I would guess that the process is similar or the same in that you cut a core, squish it to size and weight, seat it in a jacket and point form. Beyond the process can be a lot of little steps of weighing, sorting, how much lube is used, type of lube, oxidizing cores, what process the lube is removed, tumbling and meplate fomation/triming. Am I in the right ball park or do you do somthing differnt in the process?

Thank you,
Martin

[GerryM]

I disagreed with some comments like tumbeling jackets and the shape of the core.
also about washing jackets in solvents and etching cores.
A lot of steps just made makeing bullets more complicated then it has to be.
I follow what Baihler and astles wrote in there book.
The J4 jackets we receive are ready for swaging right out of the bucket.
Clean lead is the key along with uniform core weights.
Mt formula is simple uniform cores =uniform core seating= uniform points
The proper lubes are amust Anhydrous Lanolin is the properlube also.

[Reload3006]

Gerry looks like we are in complete agreement. Although i have noticed that when i recover some of my bullets i have core separation issues no problem when your shooting paper or a steel ram. But can be a huge issue when hunting. So i have started using plumbers flux and melting the cores in my jackets works like a champ ... but huge warning if you bond your cores make sure and I mean doubly sure you clean your die immediately because the salts in the flux will rust the heck out of your dies.....Dont ask how I know. LOL

[GerryM]

I
read somewhere that there s aglue in powder form that is activated by friction{heat}
That would solve a core bonding problem. Usually core seperation is due to not having enough seating pressure . The jacket is springing back instead of trying to spring in.
If you use j4 or sierra jacket it shouldn't be a problem.
I left a few things out of my post.
I wash the cores after they are formed, then a rinse is hot water and a towel dry.
same with the finished bullet.

[martin]

GarryM,

Thank you for your feedback.

We are on the same page doing things in the same way. I was just inquiring to get your thoughts on each of the topics I listed.

Question: What do you mean by the shape of the core? With my various core making dies, I have a bevel that is formed that matches the contour of the jacket and it is flat on the other end. Is that what you are suggesting?

I have several sets of B&A dies that produce good quality bullets including 3 sets in 22 and 2 sets in 6mm. What die sets do you have?

You mention Anhydrous Lanolin - do you use this strieght or do you cut it with somthing (neetsfoot oil, caster oil, petrolium jell)?

Sorry for all the questions - just comparing notes with an experienced swager. By the way, do you sell any of your projectiles?

Martin

[cgtreml]

Welcome to the forum.

A good friend is a benchrest shooter and fellow swager. Very particular in everything he does. He and this forum have dragged me back to swaging after many years of just casting, reloading, and watching my swaging dies gather dust. Great bunch of guys and very helpful. Someday I will join you guys and make benchrest quality bullets. For now just handgun stuff and converting 22 emptys to 223 bullets.

Again Welcome
Chris

[Grandpas50AE]

I wasn't sure if Gerry plans to make jackets from strips (cut disks) and draw jackets or form them from tubing but I'm anxious to see. I'm going to make some 30 cal jackets real soon as well from 5/16 copper tubing. Just need a minute of time for my personal projects.

Good shooting

BT

BT, the 5/16 copper water tubing makes great jackets, I have done them in both plain-base and RBT. You will probably find however, that the core seating punch for those jackets will have to be a little smaller than the one you are used to using for the J-4 or drawn jackets since the copper tubing is a bit thicker.

Happy swaging.

[Grandpas50AE]

Welcome Gerry, you will find a wealth of knowledge and information here on this forum. I also stumbled onto it by accident, and I have been humbled by the amount of knowledge on here that I have discovered since. The folks on this site are just super, and I have not seen any of the character-assasination type threads that seem to occur on many other gun-related forum sites. All folks here seem to be genuinely interested in helping each other discover and learn, and I look forward to seeing the wealth of your knowledge shared over time as well. I began swaging about 20 years ago, and as far as I'm concerned, have much yet to learn.

Again welcome.

[GerryM]

Compairing notes Great"'
One die make claimed that the shape of the core didn't make any differance.
I won't argue the point because it would take extensive testing and in a tunnel.
The ideal shape in My opinion is one that has a taper like the inside of the jacket. the core must also be small enough in diameter to go all the way to the bottom of the jacket before any pressure is applied. This should help or eliminate trapped air under the core.
Dick Maretzo hase been xraying bullets. He has found trapped air pockets in several of the comercial bullet makes products.
Dies? Heres what I have 2 sets of B&A one 6mm one 224. I set of Pindell dies 6mm and one point closure die. One set of detsch 224 dies, two sets of Detsch 30 cal dies 7 1/2 og and 8 og. LONG I set of Bob Simonson dies 6mm 7 1/2 og two sets of Detsch 6mm dies {long}
8 og and 10 OG. I also have a set of other dies that are made by a famous shooter die maker. They are the upside down type like Blackmoun but higher quality.
That set makes heavy bullets from 150 gr to 220 gr on long sierra jackets Bt and flat base.
I also have a set Of Corbin Dies that I bought as a learning tool. They are 6 og.
I set my dies up on three different presses {with ejectors}. I also have a CH core cutter that works great The model 30.
If you ever see one around let me knnow . I have a friend that is going to start in swageing.
Lube is a mix of 7 parts anhydrous lanolin and 1 part vaseline as a carrier.
It comes out thick like vaseline and goes a long long way. I apply with my thumb and forefinger by rolling as i seat cores or point. Carbide dies don't need very much lube. just enough to make them slide a bit. If it point too easy thers too much lube Drag theres too little lube. Yes I do make benchrest bullets for some people usually my close friends
and fellow shooters at my range.

[GerryM]

Thank you for the welcome granpas50AE.
Yes ive noticed other sites' Some are pretty crusty''
I have seen the wealth of information thats shared by all of these nice people.
I also have been swaging since the early seventys. I stopped to do what most people do Raise a family' then jumped back into it as i had time.
Guess i have been lucky . I had good friends and one was a fine machinest and a great asset.
Most of them were older then me and had a great wealth of knowledge from working in defense plants during WW2. Now I have younger friends that are into the modern equipment.
I appreciate all of them.

[BLASTER62]

Welcome G.M there are loads of knowledge I also swage bench rest & junke caes & bullets, You will like it here.

[GerryM]

Thank you for the welcome Blaster62

[martin]

GerryM,
I don’t know what to say other than wow, you must have a great passion for swaging and a lot of shooter friends :) I am sure that you have a wealth of knowledge to share with others and are a welcome addition.

Of the die sets you have, which produce the best bench rest bullets and why? What criteria in swaged bullets do you think are most important when it comes to benchrest - Square bases, consistent weight, consistent ogives, consistent meplates? Are there certain things you measure and/or sort for - jacket run out, core weight, finished length?

I don’t own any Detsch dies but have used a set that were smoother than anything else I have ever used. The only down side is the cost of the dies is beyond my budget :)

My lube is a mix of 50/50 Lanolin and Vaseline. Do you think that 7/1 would work better? My application technique is the same as your but I have to be very careful not to get too much on the jacket as it can cause dimples when doing pointing.

What are your views on using molidium disulfite? Do you coat your bullets benchrest bullets or leave them naked? Advantages and disadvantages?

Martin

[BT Sniper]

I agree with the shape of the core you are talking about and potential trapped air. I frequently use cast boolits for cores, mostly pistol bullets nothing match grade yet with riffle bullets, getting closer, but with a recent set of 338 cal dies I found a 7mm cast boolit die worked great for a core. Modified it a bit and it had a great tapper to fit the inside of the jacket I make from 223 brass. Dropped right to teh bootom as you mentioned. I'm happy to get +or- a few tenths on weight with cast boolit cores so I'm happy. Now to see if I can get some accuracy from the bullets.

Makes you wonder why we just don't use a point form die of such for a core swage die?

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060654.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1060529.jpg

[GerryM]

Hi Martin " I'll try my best to answer your questions.
Thats a tough question on dies I have to say David Detsch dies as being the smoothest.
They are carbide and internal polish is like glass' I have never seen any one polish a die like david/ The other carbide set is Bob simonsons, They are a close second to davids. The 0thers are tool steel and won't polish as high as the carbide dies. They are very very good though. All of the dies with the exception of the corbins will make benchrest quality bullets.
The big differance is the wearability of the steel dies vs the carbide dies.
The 7 to 1 lube mix is what i use with great success.
Heres the things i strive for in a benchrest bullet Careful adjustment of the point die ,It has to be right on the money, no stove pipes and closed to smallest it can get,
Proper lube not too much or too little.{thats why i use my fingers to apply lube.
core seating make sure to use the maximum pressure without stressing the jacket. I check the lead line at the end of the core for dimention with agood 1/10000 mic. The core seating punch must also be right on dimention. I have sets in 1.5 thous increments. you cant have any bleed back on the core seating punch , and the punch should not scape the walls of the jacket. Core weight is critical I weigh each core that I make before its seated. I only allow 1/10 gr variation by that I mean 1/10th IE 68 gr - 1/10th 67.9 . not over or under this weight, on any given weight , That includes the 30 cals IE 115 or 114,9 grs. Core shape . The core must easily slide to the bottom of the jacket and be on a taper like the jacket,
Molly , we used it and now we don't, molly builds up on itself after a while accuracy will grop. My barrel maker hates it . some guys use a little graphite {lock eaze on a patch with alcohol. Thy say it works even better. Most use nothing at all in the bore, anything else?

[GerryM]

Great idea on a bullet But The" What kind of core seater would you use? That would have to be one beauty to work right and also shape spacific. Bet it would work for some applications.

[DukeInFlorida]

Let's agree that there are a few levels of quality for "swaged bullets"..........

There's the benchrest quality level. There are few players in that level for making die sets. Those dies are never cheap, and you need to be very fussy with cores, seating the cores, swaging, etc. Those swaged bullets are NEVER cheaper than factory bullets. However, they aren't intended to be cheaper than factory bullets. They are intended to be the best bullets that can get fired from a high quality barrel.

Then, there's the plinking quality level. That's where the expectation is that they're only "as good" as a factory bullet, but cheaper, or at least as cheap as a factory bullet. That's where 80% of the people in this forum area are working at.

Finally, there's the "really doesn't matter" area of experimentation level of quality. Mis-shapen bullets.... poor designs... horrible accruracy... there's some of that here also. BUT, there's some things to be learned from some of those experiments. Not that those learning lessons aren't already covered in the writings of some of the well known swagers.

Gerry, I'm not sure that there's a lot of bench rest shooters here, who would be working at the level of quality for the top end die sets. I'd hope that there are.

However, it's not worth any effort to try and argue whether the high end benchrest dies are in the same league as any swaging experiments here. They're not.

Bench rest is bench rest. Plinking is plinking. Cheap and simple experiments are just that.

Perhaps if there is enough interest, the forum owner (45Nut) would consider adding a swage section for the high end benchrest shooters. That could bring in some new forum members, and they could swap ideas, etc, at that level. Benchrest swaging is the upper stratosphere of swaging. Most (all?) of the people shooting at the world class level are using high end swaging dies (above Corbin's level of quality I might suggest) and making their own.

[GerryM]

Duke I have to agree with you as to different levels of quality. with bullet prices going thru the ceiling it really pays to swage your own.
As to quality of dies there is a great differance, but i don't think that with time some of the people here could build benchrest quality dies. Its a matter of tooling and technique.
Some of the ideas I have seen here are top notch . I guess necessity is the mother of invention. The dies I see here can be great learning tool for a lot of people.
I as a swager am looking for the very best bullet that I can get to compete with the big dogs. I started with a set of Corbin dies and took it from there . Carbin dies can be very good or just so so. The ones I have are just that so so ok for hunting and plinking but great for a learning tool.
I wouldn't discourage anyone from buying any of the dies I have seen here nor discourage anyone from trying to make their own dies. It s what ever your bag is.
Plinking is also fun But I like the ultimate accuracy. Have fun plinking I do shooting small holes.

[Utah Shooter]

Welcome Gerry.

I have just been watching the thread here and some darn good information. Nice to see that there are others out there trying to get their bullets to the best they can be.

I would be curious though, (along the lines of the cores that have been discussed) how would anyone here suggest that I get my cores to have a bit of a rounded tip to them? I would like to make sure that no air is in there.

I purchased a squirt die from Lafaun on the site. Love the die gets my cores right on the money, but sometimes does leave a bit of a very thin piece of lead from where the punch is pushing it out as well.


Perhaps if there is enough interest, the forum owner (45Nut) would consider adding a swage section for the high end benchrest shooters. That could bring in some new forum members, and they could swap ideas, etc, at that level. Benchrest swaging is the upper stratosphere of swaging. Most (all?) of the people shooting at the world class level are using high end swaging dies (above Corbin's level of quality I might suggest) and making their own.

I do not think that I am any where near knowing a lot about bench rest projectiles but I think that is a good idea.

[GerryM]

Amen BT" To answer the quetion about rounded core end.
The curve is usually on the ejection punch if its a top die Like the corbin 7/8 14 style.
The knock out pin is concave
Just have some one or your self take that part out and cut or mill that out.
I bet anyone here makeing dies can do that for you.
Same with a Boat tail. If you wanted Boat tail bullets it's made in the punch {core seater}
You have a matching bottom punch made for your point die. cool huh?

[Reload3006]

Amen BT" To answer the quetion about rounded core end.
The curve is usually on the ejection punch if its a top die Like the corbin 7/8 14 style.
The knock out pin is concave
Just have some one or your self take that part out and cut or mill that out.
I bet anyone here makeing dies can do that for you.
Same with a Boat tail. If you wanted Boat tail bullets it's made in the punch {core seater}
You have a matching bottom punch made for your point die. cool huh?

I wonder if perhaps a small bleed hole .005 or less in the base of the jacket would be more effective than a shaped core to dispose of and prevent trapped air pockets than the core being shaped to the bottom of the jacket?

[BT Sniper]

I thought my comment (original post #32) might have been able to be taken wrong so I deleted it. But basicaly I said the only thing that sepperates shooters is the size of the group. So even someone that might not think they have as much knoledge as the next guy can have a good day! :)

[Utah Shooter]

I thought my comment (original post #32) might have been able to be taken wrong so I deleted it. But basicaly I said the only thing that sepperates shooters is the size of the group. So even someone that might not think they have as much knoledge as the next guy can have a good day! :)

I was wondering where that went. Not taken wrong at all.

[BT Sniper]

Cool!

Bt

[GerryM]

Reloader that probably would work but I bet it would have to be exact so as not to throw the bullet off balance. if lead were to build up on one side it might not fly right, Then if the hole was small like .062 or so it may work out pretty well. Ipicked .062 because thats the size of my ejection pin. good idea ' why not give it a try. all you couls loose is a bullet or two.

[Reload3006]

I am thinking it may be ok ... but i will put the jackets in a Harding speed lathe and drill them with the smallest drill bit i can get. thinking that may be around .010 I know if they aren't in the exact center centrifugal force will cause more yaw than an air pocket. but turning in a 5C collet it should be less than .0005 TIR probably even better.

[Reload3006]

Just did some checking #80 drill is about .014 still pretty small if in the center should work well for air bleed and not cause any yaw.

[DukeInFlorida]

Taking it a bit further......

There's nothing wrong with ANY of the dies I have seen for sale or made and shown on this forum. As long as that set does for YOU what you want it to do.

One of the first things I discuss in my reloading classes is bullet selection. It all starts with the bullet. What are you planning on doing with the bullet?

If you're plinking at 50 yards, then you are wasting $$$ buying match grade 600 yard bullets.

If you're shooting elk at 800 yards, then 50 yard plinking bullets are a bad choice.

If you're a serious benchrest shooter, then nothing but the very best long distance bullets are OK.

Keep in mind that the serious benchrest shooters are the ones with matched sets of brass, trimmed, trued, and processed to eliminate any possible deviations. They weigh and measure every bullet, and would most likely discard 80+ out of a box of a hundred commercial "match grade" bullets. They shoot $6000 rifles, and $3000 scopes sitting on $800 rests, and have the finest optics for spotting.

The equipment (including the rifles) is so precise that even the mirage from the gun's barrel heat is an issue.

Bullets for that end of the sport could easily cost $5-$6 each (just the bullet), and it's worth every cent.

Read up on what's called, "F Class" shooting, and you'll get a sense for that level of swaging.

So, again, Gerry, welcome to castboolits. We'll learn all we can from your knowledge, and hope to retain half of that!

The making of jackets takes your experience to even higher levels! Wow.

[GerryM]

Just to get a handle on what I do
I shoot the short range 100 to 300 yds.
Most of the bullets i make are designed for that . My rifles are about $3000 or so and the scopes are anywhere from $400 to $1000 IE I'm not bragging Please"' I got hooked on this when it cost way way less'
The bullets I make cost me about .18 cent each thats with the J4 jackets.
Groups are now in the teens so 5 5shot group averaging .1900 or Less.
The rests are about $500 to $1000 pretty pricey'
but they work well. or we wouldn't pay for them.
Now the long range guys are something else they cost a bit more due to the special actions they use for the 50 cal and cheytac line of cases. Stocks too they run the price right up there. so one of those rigs is around $5000 . The ammo cost way more also basicly because they use way more powder and bigger bullets.
I believe everything is relative shooting at 300 is and can be just as complicated as shooting at 600 and 1,000 yds especialy when you have to shoot against people that set world records.
I swear some of those guys could shoot a Water pipe and win' It makes be back up at times.
On a good note my 105 10 og shoots really well out to 600 yds.
One shooter wanted to try them out and shot some amazing groups out at 600.
That Made my day as a SWAGER' I,ve always tried to help the other guys shoot better but that was a big reward for me. I got hooked on swaging along time ago and i really do enjoy makeing bullets.