ideas for seating PB gas checks

[Whiterabbit]

Hi guys,

So the project is seating Hornady gas checks on PB Missouri bullets. I turned an aluminum punch just perfect so a tap with a mallet opens up the gas check to fit perfectly around the bevel base of the MO bullet. The bottom rests against the base of the bullet and check sides open up so the ID is snug against the sidewall of the bullet. So far so good.

Now I need to crimp the GC on. I have .454 and .452 lee push through sizers and a new-to-me lyman 45 with a .451 sizer (still need to open it up or buy a .452 sizer die). So I figured I would start with the .454 push through sizer and run the bullet through backwards. My press is much more sturdy than the lyman 45. It kinda spooks me a little to be honest, the lyman seems REALLY flimsy.

Anyways, I run the bullet up, but it takes ALOT of force to get the gas check to crimp. Enough force to where I needed a breaker bar on the RCBS press handle to get it to go. That makes me nervous for long-term longevity of my RCBS press if I want to make a bunch of these.

Running them through the .452 push through sizer nose-first works just fine after that of course.

I'm looking for ideas on what I can buy or make to help me pre-crimp the bullets before running them through the push throughs or the Lyman 45 to fully size up the gas check.

Ideally I want to make a hundred or couple hundred of these.

[Reload3006]

you can get a lot more power out of your RC by screwing your die up higher the most power from your press comes as it gets closer to the end of your stroke. So if you set it up so that its done with its stroke and you still have to get another bullet to push the other bullet through may help.

[Whiterabbit]

That's a great idea. The nose of the lower bullet may help prevent gas check base bowing also while seating. I'm gonna try that tonight.

[tjones]

Straight wall cases? Use the upside down, otherwise it's B.S.
Tj

[Whiterabbit]

I don't think I understood that one, tjones, could you elaborate?

[Whiterabbit]

OK, tried tall seating the die. Worked OK, about 50% popped right through, the other 50% needed some help. It wasn't the perfect solution, but undeniably helped.

[Bad Water Bill]

Try a Q tip with some sort of lubricant thru your die before running naked gas checks or anything else in a sizing die.

Even your car needs lubricant sometimes.:kidding:

[sharpshooter3040]

Hi guys,

So the project is seating Hornady gas checks on PB Missouri bullets. I turned an aluminum punch just perfect so a tap with a mallet opens up the gas check to fit perfectly around the bevel base of the MO bullet. The bottom rests against the base of the bullet and check sides open up so the ID is snug against the sidewall of the bullet. So far so good.

Now I need to crimp the GC on. I have .454 and .452 lee push through sizers and a new-to-me lyman 45 with a .451 sizer (still need to open it up or buy a .452 sizer die). So I figured I would start with the .454 push through sizer and run the bullet through backwards. My press is much more sturdy than the lyman 45. It kinda spooks me a little to be honest, the lyman seems REALLY flimsy.

Anyways, I run the bullet up, but it takes ALOT of force to get the gas check to crimp. Enough force to where I needed a breaker bar on the RCBS press handle to get it to go. That makes me nervous for long-term longevity of my RCBS press if I want to make a bunch of these.

Running them through the .452 push through sizer nose-first works just fine after that of course.

I'm looking for ideas on what I can buy or make to help me pre-crimp the bullets before running them through the push throughs or the Lyman 45 to fully size up the gas check.

Ideally I want to make a hundred or couple hundred of these.

you really need to do this on an arbor press. You don't have the leverage advantage you need on any lube sizer. I started experimenting with 40-82 plain base boolits and 416 hornady gas checks. I did as you did by first opening up the gas check first so it will fit snug on the base of the boolit. I bored a hole half way through in the base block of the arbor press to accomodate the lam of H&I die. then drill another hole 30 or 40 thousandts smaller hole so the die will bottom out and receive purchase to size the boolit. Pull the die out, flip it over and push the boolit out with the return pin. I use a little STP on a Q tip to lube the die, every 5 or so boolits. Now you can lube them in the normal way without fear of damaging you lube sizer. Flat nose boolits work the best, for other designs you would have to fit a nose punch in the arbor press

[Montana Ron]

Try Imperial sizing wax!!!!!!!!!!!! You can run a 06 case into a 22-250 and size it in one pass............this is some slippery stuff

[Bad Water Bill]

I and several other OLD timers have tried that one . You might get 1 out of 4 to work. We all tried that when 06 brass was there for the taking.

With todays prices for once fired 06 brass and the low success rate plus the time to trim it to length you are money ahead to buy new brass and then you know what you have.

I am not cheap but they have not created a word to describe how THRIFTY i am yet.:bigsmyl2:

This applies to converting 30-06 brass to 22-250

Sorry for wandering off track a bit

[tjones]

I don't think I understood that one, tjones, could you elaborate?

With a wad of cotton or something similar and in a straight walled case and a PB bullet ,flare the mouth of the case just enough to start the check upside down. Seat the bullet as normal. Works just fine, you've sealed the bore the check goes 50 to 100 feet somehow and your done.
tj

[Jim]

Tjones, tell me if I got this procedure correct.

1- charge case.
2- fill case void with 'cotton or something similar'.
3- place inverted check in case mouth over filler.
4- seat boolit over all of the aforementioned contents.

Is that right?

[tjones]

Tjones, tell me if I got this procedure correct.

1- charge case.
2- fill case void with 'cotton or something similar'.
3- place inverted check in case mouth over filler.
4- seat boolit over all of the aforementioned contents.

Is that right?

Yes. I suppose there are configurations where it could fail, but all checks I tried were nice snug fits is the case with little possibility of upset. I used cotton initially for comfort then none. Try one, check the bore and or cylinder etc, try another etc you'll see.
tj

[Jim]

I need some help understanding how this works. As I see it, the function of the gas check is going to be severely handicapped, if not useless altogether. When the light comes on, the gas check is going to obturate into a bowl shape, thus reducing it's diameter. Furthermore, the cutting edge of the check is turned backwards, disabling it from scraping the bore of any lead deposits.

The next thing that's got me puzzled is the effect of the filler on the chamber pressure. You didn't mention how much filler you use, so I'm assuming there's quite a bit. At least, enough to keep the check placed against the bottom of the boolit. Would this not drive the chamber pressure up to a dangerous level?

I'd be interested in some details of your loading procedures, boolit weights, powder choice, charge adjustments, that sort of thing, using this method as I've never seen this done.

Thanks!

[Bad Water Bill]

I also wonder if there will be air space between a WAD of cotton and the gas check and any air space between the gas check and boolit. Sure could get VERY interesting at the range.

[tjones]

I need some help understanding how this works. As I see it, the function of the gas check is going to be severely handicapped, if not useless altogether. When the light comes on, the gas check is going to obturate into a bowl shape, thus reducing it's diameter. Furthermore, the cutting edge of the check is turned backwards, disabling it from scraping the bore of any lead deposits.

The next thing that's got me puzzled is the effect of the filler on the chamber pressure. You didn't mention how much filler you use, so I'm assuming there's quite a bit. At least, enough to keep the check placed against the bottom of the boolit. Would this not drive the chamber pressure up to a dangerous level?

I'd be interested in some details of your loading procedures, boolit weights, powder choice, charge adjustments, that sort of thing, using this method as I've never seen this done.

Thanks!
The idea is to seal against gases. The expanding gases will flare the skirts against barrel land groove etc. At exit they are bowl shaped, dome shape if you like, some seem to start to tear once in a while . The are generally deeply engraved by the lands. The 'filler" was just to help me insure the check didn't dislodge etc. But as you know the web of the case get thicker as you proceed down from the mouth. Fellow gave me this idea 6 months ago and I'll stick with it. Checked as usual or upside down they hit the same spot in multiple tests.
tj

[Jim]

I think I'll stick with the method I've been using for almost 30 years.

[Bad Water Bill]

I think I will stick with Jim on this one.

Sounds WAY to risky for this old man. I only have about 45 years picking up WW and turning them into boolits but have never heard or read about doing it that way. Even Harvey Donaldson never mentioned it. I can not recall Dean G or Richard Lee ever mentioning that way either.

I have Handloader #1 and many more still on file ln my library of reloading books so I think I will work on the SAFE side and do it the way I always have.

Besides that if something happened to me WHO would volunteer to take care of Girty:bigsmyl2:

Stay safe

[PatMarlin]

Why I'll take care of Girty Bill.

She'd have a nice new home in the mountains, with a bedding of CFF.

[Bad Water Bill]

Sorry Pat yu wil NEVR git HER. Any budy that caint tel the difrnce betwn gurl and boy mules wil nivr git HER.:kidding::bigsmyl2:

Nowh Bukshot mite b a difrnt stori.

How duz yur CFF stuf tast az she iz a fusy etr an onli ets qualiti fud. No junk fud er flor swepinz fer that ladie

Sides that she iz a borned an bread dezert ladie an mite git noze bleds up in dem thar hilz.

[PatMarlin]

Sorry Bill, that was a typo and I fixed it right off the moment you mentioned it.

Buckshot's my cousin, so she'd be in the family. There's lots of good trees here to chew on too.

[nanuk]

I really can't see any issue with the OP.

the torn GC won't affect the boolit, cause it is already out of the bore.

it would help ensure undamaged bases

the pressure would ensure it is snug against the bottom of the boolit so no separation


Jim: lead scraping would still be accomplished as the GC is still over groove size and the corner would still be pretty sharp. (and besides, aren't your loads Non-Leading?)

BW Bill, Donaldson et al simply didn't have the "Outside the Box" thinking.
Every few days, we can read on here where their old ideas have been debunked.
if you took everything they said as gospel, and did nothing they didn't do, everyone would still be shooting cast under 2000fps.

[Bad Water Bill]

BW Bill, Donaldson et al simply didn't have the "Outside the Box" thinking.
Every few days, we can read on here where their old ideas have been debunked.
if you took everything they said as gospel, and did nothing they didn't do, everyone would still be shooting cast under 2000fps.

Someday sir you should spend the time and money to acquire and read some of those old time folks books. Who do you think the 219 DONALDSON wasp was named after and why. I could go on all day poking holes but why bother.

If it was not for those old timers thinking for themselves you sir would indeed still be shooting black powder only and PB only.

Sure we have made advances but look at all of the gadgets you have at your disposal that were not even dreamed of before 1950.

rant switch off

[goofyoldfart]

I do believe that is was an idea that was started from loading shot shells for straight wall cases. Powder in, a regular check over the powder, then shot in, then upside down check for containment with maybe a VERY slight crimp. it has been done by me, BUT instead of cotton, I cut meat tray divots to keep the powder against the primer then the bullet to hold the wads in place and use a slight crimp. Found out that using just the wads to take up the air space that I didn't need to use a gas check at all (either way). the wads were as good as the gas check and always seem to wipe the bore also. recovered bullets had NO gas cutting or deformed bases. the idea came from an Ablation engineer for NASA who was a shooter and ran out of gas checks one day so he stepped outside the box. He then wrote an article for American Rifleman some time in the mid 1970's. I have used it since then and it works. you still have to balance your lube and lead hardness and powder just like a "naked" Boolit. I have even used them on lead boolits in bottlenecked cases. a dollop of glue on the boolit and stick on a wad and load so that the wad doesn't go below the neck into the shoulder. That too works, But can be a PITA! the wads are made from divots punched out of polyethylene foam from supermarket meat trays that you purchase your beef, pork, sausage, chittlins' , chicken and so on. try 'em, you might be surprised. God Bless to all.

P.S. not trying to put PatMarlin out of business.:bigsmyl2:

[Whiterabbit]

None of us are, and none of us will. $10 says that if anyone DOES experiment more and more like this (like me) it'll just be a gateway TO Pat Marlin for one or more of his die sets.

Here's another thought. The Lyman 45 lubrisizer does seem really really flimsy, but with a .458 sizer in there, do you think that would work to get a crimp started on a PB bullet @ .452? The bullet could then be "swaged" in a lee push through @ .454 and .452 respectively.

I've actually used a .451 lman lubrisizer die to seat gas checks before sizing to .4525-.453. The top seems really conical and oversized, not going down to .451 till the die reaches the lube grooves. So by pushing the bullet in to 1mm past the gas check and releasing, seems to work pretty well. BUT, this is for GC seating on GC bullets. I have no doubt seating a larger GC on a PB bullet wouldn't work like this in a .451 die. But seems like it might work in a .454 or .458 die?

You know. Without breaking the erector-set-like linkages on the lubrisizer.

[PatMarlin]

Warms my heart to know I'm the drug of choice for cast boolit shooters... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: