cure my ignorance

[ss40_70]

i have been stuck at home for more then a few weeks now with a broken leg and the boredom is realy starting to get to me. ( also my wife and kids )
i also have developed an urge to try patching . i'm not sure why exactly but part of the draw is the work needed to get things right . another part is just wanting to try something differant .
i have decided to use my trusty 45-70 sharps for this . and that leads me to a few questions .

1 molds .. i need to try this with a bit of attention to cost , as it is christmas time and i am not working till the cast comes off .. are there any production molds being made suitable for patching to bore dia ?

2 alloy .. with costs being a factor i am thinking of trying wheel weights mixed with pure .. is this possible if so what should i aim for as far as hardness .. if not feel free to educate me i am ignorant about this

3 self education materials ... what would you recomend as far as what to read to educate myself so i dont have to ask a bunch of fool questions , this is realy the question i most need answered

thanks

[Don McDowell]

Might get ahold of Bernie at Old West for a mould, but it'll be 125$ or so. Other than that the BACO moulds are the same price range, unless you can find a mould on Ebay or gunbroker etc.

Straight wheelweights work alright with patched bullets. Mixing pure lead may or may not help.

Read about anything you can find on the net, by Powderburner, Leadpot (kurt), and Kenny Wasserburger.

[Don McDowell]

There may also be an article or two on paper patching on the articles page at bpcr.net.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Slug your bore first. Check the wrap and shrink on your paper by actually patching. Measuring will tell you what diameter slug is needed. Things never line up alphabetically without help. To get the bullet seating snugness you desire you may have to diddle paper thickness, or bullet hardness, or case neck dimensions. Just to start learning, you can use a well shaped GG mould to patch that will shoot nicely or you can go directly to the smooth sided at some point.

READ, READ, read. There are very knowledgeable people here and elsewhere.

BvT

[Don McDowell]

If you decide to go with one of Bernie's , I'ld recommend the .441 creedmoor. I'm shooting the .444 but wishing I had of gone with the 441.

[ss40_70]

i have been doing a bit of reading threw old posts and what not , i hafta say it all seems a bit intimidating ,..
hearing that wheel weights will work is encouraging , i hate to sound cheap but buying alloy or tin to make it gets expensive i went that route when i started with grease groove boolits but have switched to ww as i am not a good enough shot to see any measurable loss of acuracy

there is one concept i keep reading and bvt also mentioned above ( if i'm understanding correctly ) is choose a paper first then a bullet dia .. ok now this confuses me just a tiny bit .. .. ok now i do understand how the paper will stretch as you wrap the patch and then shrink as it dries that is the easy part to get ,... what throws me off is ( maybe i am overthinking a bit ) how am i to know what the finished product is going to be without using the bullet i plan on shooting ... if i try wrapping one of my gg bullets that are not only a larger dia but will have less surface area for that patch will i get the same results as on a smooth smaller dia bullet ,. as in the same stretch and shrinkage
or will they be close enough to not matter .
or would i be better served as a rookie to just decide on a bullet dia then find a paper that gets me where i want to be .
if it helps my bore dia is .450 and thinking i should have a patched dia of .449

[Don McDowell]

IMHO this stuff that has cropped up on the internet as of late about finding the paper and then get the bullet to match is, mostly just something to sound cool while rolling up a higher post count.
If you go with a 9# onionskin or any other paper that is about .002 thick and a .441 bullet you won't be to far wrong.
Sometimes depending on the rifle and the bullet rolling dry can shoot better than rolling wet. But that's just something that needs to be decided between you and your rifle.
Rolling greasegroove bullets in paper is a perfectly good waste of time and patching paper. The only reason to do that would be on account of having absolutely no other way to load a round for that particular cartridge.
The biggest mistake folks make is trying to lob a bullet to long for the twist. Remember when you're shooting bore diameter patched bullets in a 45-xx the bullet itself is actually 44 caliber and not 45. That's the nicest part about the nosepour adjustable nose moulds, you can make adjustments to bullet length to suit your rifle , and there's alot to be said for the original Sharps 45-75 load and it's 1.1 inch, 420 gr bullet.

[Lead pot]

40-70.
Patching is straight forward. You dont need to pound lead slugs down the bore o get a exact diameter if you use black powder. Like Don said a .441 diameter unpatched bullet will work and work very good even in some of the Import rifles that have slightly different bore/groove diameters. With a .441 to .444 diameter bullets you can just about regulate how tight you want the bullet to fit your bore with the paper you can get.
The mould would be a little more difficult to get with the over the counter moulds from Lyman, RCBS, Lee, or Saeco, I have no idea if they even offer a proper one.
Buffalo arms http://www.buffaloarms.com/Buffalo_arms_Bullet_moulds_pr-3853.aspx make excellent moulds that dont take the back seat to any of the high priced moulds. I have no idea what the mould Don mentioned is like I never had one. NEI http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog.html have a big selection of different types of mould blocks, but I have not dealt with them since Walt died.
Keep it simple and you will get along just fine.

Forgot, WW straight or mixed 50/50 will cast and shoot just fine. I use a lot of WW.
Go to the scrap yard and get lead, it runs about .50 cents/lb to .80 cents for clean sheet lead or pure lead ingots some times.

[BrentD]

SS40, it is sounds like you are looking for a target bullet for the most part, so shoot for a .450 bullet when it is wrapped.

As for the paper first, then bullet, routine, what you are trying to find out is how much additional diameter will be added to the bullet when you wrap it twice with your chosen paper. Most of the papers we use add between 0.006 and 0.010" to the diameter of the bullet.

For measuring this before you have your bullet mould, it doesn't matter if you use a bigger bullet, or a drill bit shank of any diameter. The point is only how much bigger is the diameter with the paper? So measure before you wrap, then measure after you wrap (and dry if you wet wrap) and the difference between those two is the magic number you want.

BTW, you can get a cheap and very effective push-through sizing die for $30 from Lee Precision. It can size a paper patched bullet a bit smaller, but it can't bump it up. So, if you err, err on the high side.

[Lead pot]

:razz: Brent to add $30. for a sizing die to the price over a over the counter mould wouldn't it be better to just order a BACO mould??:-P

[BrentD]

:razz: Brent to add $30. for a sizing die to the price over a over the counter mould wouldn't it be better to just order a BACO mould??:-P

If it is the right size, sure, but now we aren't supposed to the paper first thing according to the resident expert, so sizing might be the only post-purchase option to get a correct fit. In my book the fit is critical.

Also, I believe that the shapes of the .441 and .446 Money bullets are considerably different from each other, with the latter being a good bit pointier.

A local shooter has done both of the BA money bullets for his .45 and one was very blunt. The pointier of the two (closer to a true prolate shape) gave better results.

[montana_charlie]

IMHO this stuff that has cropped up on the internet as of late about finding the paper and then get the bullet to match is, mostly just something to sound cool while rolling up a higher post count.would i be better served as a rookie to just decide on a bullet dia then find a paper that gets me where i want to be .

When I got equipped for paper patching, the first thing I found was a great price on two reams of discontinued ononskin on Ebay.

My most careful measuring said the paper was .0019" thick.
I then ordered a bullet mould which would throw the diameter I wanted, believing that when patched it would be a particular size.

I was wrong.
The paper yielded considerably less increase in diameter than I thought is would.

My bullet mould arrived two thousandths larger than I had ordered ... and it was still too small for the paper I had.
That left me in the position of buying different papers until I found one the right thickness ... or buying a larger mould.
I chose to have a new mould made, and got the fit that I originally wanted.

BUT IF I HAD ACTUALLY TEST WRAPPED with my paper to begin with ... I would have known from the start what bullet diameter I really needed.

I had a thread going at the time, and I think it was in there that I said something like ... I have gone about this the way others do, but I think it makes more sense to buy the paper first ... then get a bullet to match it ... rather than the other way around.

It was just a random thought at the time, but since then BrentD and Leadpot have both recommended the same sequence in other threads they have replied to.
Those guys understand the significance of the idea, while some others don't.


Having said all of that, I see that my post count just went up ...

CM

[BrentD]

My post count is too pitifull to worry about, but what a great opportunity to bag #101 anyway...

[Lead pot]

I have several boxes of paper that range from .0016 to .0021.
I like my patched paper thickness that is right at groove depth to two thousands over and I personally like to patch .003 over bore for the target range one of my rifles I load .004 over bore diameter but it has a throat that will use a .446" unpatched bullet and it shoots it better then one patched just under bore diameter.
Three of my rifles I patch .002 over bore diameter but all of these rifles have a throat that will allow a bullet seated in the case .200 and chamber with out a problem and accuracy is good.
All this patching depends what works in a particular rifle chamber.
The reason I said the .441 diameter is the paper that is the easiest to get is .002 to .0022 and that makes the .441 good to fit the bore.
I have the BA .441 and it shoots very good using the paper mill .0021 paper and it also will drop right in the chamber if it gets patched using a thinner paper if one wants to shoot with out fouling control.
It all depends on how you want to use the rifle on how you patch your bullet.

[Lead pot]

I might add.

I also use unpatched bullets that are naked right at bore diameter and use .002 paper and patch it to .001 over groove diameter, but for those I use a bullet breach seating tool and load a full case of powder with a flush wad at the case mouth and those shoot very good, but It is not the way to go at the gong shoots because time does not allow to load this way.

[Don McDowell]

Keep in mind 40-70 wanted to know about shooting bore diameter bullets. So this hubbub about paper thickness does not play the part it does when your trying to shoot groove diameter bullets.
The paper texture is more important than the thickness, a slick paper won't shoot as well as a courser textured paper. As one well known shooter puts it, sort of like wipin your butt with the slick paper from the Wards catalog compared against a softer textured paper..

[BrentD]

Keep in mind 40-70 wanted to know about shooting bore diameter bullets. So this hubbub about paper thickness does not play the part it does when your trying to shoot groove diameter bullets.

Of course it does.



The paper texture is more important than the thickness, a slick paper won't shoot as well as a courser textured paper. As one well known shooter puts it, sort of like wipin your butt with the slick paper from the Wards catalog compared against a softer textured paper..

Hell, I shoot cooking parchment paper at times - and with excellent results. Texture-smexture, it ain't important to me, and I'll put my system's accuracy against anyone's.

[Don McDowell]

Well whoopytytedooo. I shot some coffee filters,,, didn't work worth a hoot.....Thickness was right tho.....

[BrentD]

Great. I don't shoot coffee filters myself. I shoot targets and animals. But whatever.

You are about the only person I know that thinks paper thickness is so unimportant. Everyone that shoots paper patches competitively thinks bullet fit is everything and that starts with paper. MOst of us have been working at this a long long time to figure out these little details. I don't think they are trivial unless one is happy with minute of boulder or minute of pie plate accuracy.

FWIW, parchment is prelubed with something like silicone I suppose. It is slick as hell. Shoots well too. Rolls like ****, but if you get it on there right, it shoots well. Very well.

Another somewhat slick paper that is thin and tough is some of the heavier weights of tracing paper sold in art stores. It is not cheap stuff, but rather pretty pricey, finely made paper that will add about 0.007" to a bullet's diameter even though it is listed as 20 or 25# bond. That stuff must be compressed somehow. Anyway, slicker than most papers, thin and a good shooter. But pricey.

Ha, I"m up to #104. Climbing up there! :(

[Don McDowell]

OOOOOO one of them hairy chested bowlegged competition shooters....
Never said paper thickness wasn't important, said it didn't make as much difference as some try to portray it.
If 40-70 were to start with a .441 bullet in the original Sharps/remington style not over 1.3 inches long rolled in 9lb onion skin, or some of the midweight tracing paper from the office supply, chances are once he got his wad stack down and his fouling control figured out he could go compete with the best of em.

[BrentD]

Probably not.

Why not do it right from the get go? Avoid buying multiple moulds and making dozens of mistakes.

For instance, my wad stack: one 0.06 fiber wad. Pretty complicated. With the right bullet size and paper, this isn't hard. With the wrong stuff, it becomes a nightmare of problems to pursue - most of which never get solved.

[Don McDowell]

Sure that works , if you want to wipe after every shot....
And everybody knows a wiping routine can make or break a patched bullet load.
Why not just keep it simple to start with, find out if he's even going to like having the extra steps of paper patching?
It's not a terribly hard thing to do, but it can get frustrating.

[ss40_70]

i worked the phone a little bit today and found an actual stationary store , it sounds like they have a good selection of paper with near all the papers ive seen mentioned threwout these threads , i'm going to try to hobble my butt around this weekend and have a looksee with my mic in hand for a bit of cheap entertainment .

one of my reasons on choosing to patch to bore dia is ease of loading .. i mostly just shoot for fun with a few clang and bangs thrown in for good measure , i dont shoot shoot to win just for entertainment , although i do plan on trying my hand at the midrange sillohette at mcdonald pa a couple times next year

and i'm not going to play the fouling game .. with greasers i blowtube .. its humid here and it works good ... with the pp i figure lifes going to be a lot easier if i just wipe between shots and save myself the frustrations .

thanks for the help so far fellows i am going to do some more reading , im sure to confuse myself even further so expect some more questions shortly

[Don McDowell]

Well that's the neat thing about going with the slightly less than bore diameter and using greasecookies etc. You can run several rounds without wiping and still not loose much accuracy for the things you've listed.
You do have to experiment with the wiping routine, it can throw a good load right out the window.

[BrentD]

Wiping it quite simple. Beyond quite simple actually.

Good luck SS40. I'm sure you will manage to do pretty well.

[Don McDowell]

Actually the wiping routine I use for most match shooting is simply run a damp patch on a nylon brush after every shot.
If you go to shoot Orville loomers match (invite only) there are no blowtubes or wiping sticks allowed. 10 shot strings, you foul out,.... you loose....

[BrentD]

Don, you are the on with problems wiping.

Lots of things can be done if wiping and blowing isn't allowed. Hardly difficult, but there, done that, but this shooter doesn't sound like he's been invited to Oville's now does he?

Don, go chill out with your new Shiloh. You need to cheer up...

[Don McDowell]

No Brent you're wrong, just like you are on some many things. Wiping is a very easy thing to do, unnecessarry if you load your ammo right, but easy non the less.

[BrentD]

I've shot far more paper patch bullets than you ever will. Done it in every sort of condition imaginable. I shot without wiping (25 shots/10 minutes in the old Ackley matches), hunting from New Mexico to Namibia, from 100 yds to 1000 yds, in competition, out of competition. More different rifles than I can count, more different barrels and moulds and swaging dies that I can count. Why do you persist that I don't know what I'm talking about?

Now go play with your .44-77 and come back and tell everyone how you shoot MOA all day with sub bore diameter paper patched bullets and no wiping or blowing. We all need a good laugh.

[Don McDowell]

Little bit of jealousy there boy? Was shooting paper patch from Shiloh and C Sharps and original rifle, probably before you ever found out about it.
Yeh I got my 44-77, and yes if the short few rounds that it fired this morning are any indication it will shoot close to moa, and with the patched rounds loaded the way they were instructed to be via the original sharps and remingto catalogs, probably will shoot most of the day without cleaning or wiping. Especially with the KIK powder.
What's with you and your animosity anyway?

[BrentD]

Of course of course. Always that internet MOA, every time.

Every time I see you have the courage to shoot a match, I see your scores at the very bottom. Why is that? You won't shoot a lick better with your new .44 either.

You still haven't learned anything.

PS. I've read the original Sharps cataloged shot original Sharps and you still ain't gotta clue do ya?

[45nut]

personal insults? over a thread on paper patching? please folks, try to walk a tighter line.

[Don McDowell]

Every time I see you have the courage to shoot a match, I see your scores at the very bottom. Why is that? You won't shoot a lick better with your new .44 either.

You still haven't learned anything.

PS. I've read the original Sharps cataloged shot original Sharps and you still ain't gotta clue do ya?

Not every match Brent, and it has nothing to do with courage to shoot a match, which brings up the question why we've never seen you shoot Alliance ???
Anyway yeh there's been some pretty miserable scores especially since after my heart attack . But at every match with the exception of one or two, there's been some pretty good scores on various targets. Mostly a function of the reaction to sunlight and heat by my blood pressure medicine. Usually finish up in the middle to upper middle somewhere. Besides I don't go to be the big winner, I spend alot of my match time load developing and prooving. I go to enjoy the shooting and the challenge of different targets away from home, and the opportunity to shoot with like minded folks from different parts of the country.
We could go on and on but as history prooves, there's no let up with you.

[Lead pot]

There comes a time when everyone's score drops shooting matches. I know mine are and will continue as time goes by. If you cant see the target clear you cant do good hitting it and it's not the load always that tears down a match score.
Like I always say; Every little dog will have it's day, some just sooner then others.

[ss40_70]

i just read threw montana charlies patching my way thread a good read and i believe i learned a good deal of useful information from it , though there was a lot to process

what i found most helpful was the description of his chamber and how he explained why he decided to go with a groove dia patched bullet , being a touch ignorant about such things he did a good job of making it easy for me understand , it also confirmed my thinking on using a bore dia boolit in my standerd shiloh chamber

something else i learned was what i had not thought a lot on .. proper patch size ..
all the pictures i found realy helped one of the most telling to me was one don posted that showed the results of having a slight gap between the ends of tha patch .

the better half is driving me to the paper store in the am .. should be fun.
thank you gentleman things are starting to make sense to me now

[Don McDowell]

I'm getting along pretty well with the bore diameter bullets in my Shilo chamber, and the wifes Winchester likes them pretty good as well.
Good luck with your endeavors. It's more time consuming than shooting greasers, but it is rewarding when things come together.
While you're at the paper store, get a paper cutter, then you can draw your template out on the bed of the cutter, cut the patches to the width you want and just lay the strips (I staple 5 strips together) out over that drawn template and in a couple of minutes you'll have 250 patches cut and ready to go.

[montana_charlie]

i just read threw montana charlies patching my way thread a good read and i believe i learned a good deal of useful information from it ,
Since you found it useful, thanks for saying so.
FWIW, your standard Shiloh chamber is not very different from mine. They are both designed for grease grooved bullets.

CM

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Ham fine thread though ! Its the competition that brings the improvements.

I gotta state for the record I never worry about my count getting up. That's a misplaced worry for sure.

BvT

[Don McDowell]

BvT, what paper and bullet are you using for bore diameter bullets in your 45 caliber Shiloh?

[bydand]

Aside from all the remarks, there is a book on the subject if it's still around, called
The Paper Jacket by Paul Matthews
Wolfe Publishing Co.
Prescott Arizona
It covers EVERYTHING on the subject including how to do it.
Might be out of print and you would need to check with used book dealers.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Why, I have enjoyed each and every post on this topic and viewed them by my own experience, as much less than the heights of the OLYMPIC experience of others that it is, and that has let me smile at the screen and nod in agreement with parts of many and frown a little at others.

I never worried about post counts personally but can see where some may count them up as treasure though. Admittedly it struck me as odd to see that comment for sure, although I didn't care enough about that to take note of the author. .

Being as the BOSS had just stuck his head in and suggested a little moderation. I posted thinking the "*am fine thread" words I used would not be harmful to the exhuberance of technical wrangling and would assist in the patching discussion continuing on. I have sometimes found true gems of insight or truth in a tangle of experiences. I did say it was a misplaced worry about post counts though. MAYBE it isn't for some. There, I fixed it. Or maybe I could get some of mine transferred to a needy poster.


I still use the 9 pound 100% cotton rag bond I bought in 1967. You see, I had a lot and still have enough to patch up near anything I want. I do just that too. I've patched to bore and groove and sought moulds to match my papers , to match my bores and grooves, and sized some for the pure fun of it. It was a great thing to do before electronic communications, when you could speak to masters of the arts in some cases, and factory moulds were still reasonably good.

I don't have a Shiloh anything, although I still drool over the Shiloh 50-70 Military rifle I passed up foolishly many years ago. It was a wonderful piece. If my stock is questionable because of a rifle I don't have, I would say, the arsenal cherry ramrod bayonet trapdoor I shot for years makes up for that crime. Few have ever shot one as good as the one I had or could even get one these days. Shilohs stand in ranks like infantry regiments I hear.

For a fellow wanting to explore patching to see if he wanted that discipline, and do it on the cheap, I would still say what I said in my initial post at the start of the discussion. But I also was thinking the discussion was great, and he had to start somewnere in the light of his experience and would do just that. I would for sure. BvT

[montana_charlie]

I never worried about post counts personally but can see where some may count them up as treasure though. Admittedly it struck me as odd to see that comment for sure, although I didn't care enough about that to take note of the author. .
If you sashay back to http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showpost.php?p=1493116&postcount=12, and note the quoted text at the top, the reason for the 'post count' mention might be more clear.

CM

[ss40_70]

well i found some paper .. the store i went to was very helpful . i the first person i talked to was the store manager , and while he didnt under stand exactly what i want to do he did know his product and gave me a few sample sheets of each type i wanted to try before i commit to buying .. was a much better experiance then expected ... after dinner i'm going to find something to roll them on , in the meantime though i thought i'd try to show a rather poor picture of my trusty well used and showing its age shiloh , nothing fancy , just a standerd no frills shooter


http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab11/stephen4570/SU1HXzIwMTExMjExXzE0MzQxOC5qcGc.jpg


sorry its not a better picture its from my nephews cell phone

[Red River Rick]

SS40 70:

One would think that there's enough member's here on this board that could possibly send you a small number of 0.441" - 0.443" diameter straight sided PP bullets for you to try..............before you make the plunge!

FWIW.

RRR

[Don McDowell]

40-70 , nice looking rifle.
Try a 7/16 drill bit, it measures in a bit over .437 , that's getting close enough to a proper size bullet to let you know the increase in diameter.
I have a few .444, and .435's I could send you, but I'm out of .441 and 2's.
Rick Mulhern has one of Red River Ricks bullet moulds that throws a .441 bullet that shot very well to 900 yds for me.

[RMulhern]

40-70 , nice looking rifle.
Try a 7/16 drill bit, it measures in a bit over .437 , that's getting close enough to a proper size bullet to let you know the increase in diameter.
I have a few .444, and .435's I could send you, but I'm out of .441 and 2's.
Rick Mulhern has one of Red River Ricks bullet moulds that throws a .441 bullet that shot very well to 900 yds for me.

Don

Haven't forgotten to send you a few! But....hunting season is still in here so it'll be a while before I get to casting! Before it was ball games and now....well...I'm sure you understand!:drinks::wink:

Oh...this ones from Kansas! Had forked G2s!

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7174/6449969265_6eced489c2_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6449969265/)
RickKans (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6449969265/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

How you like my Sharps??

[ss40_70]

i spent last night patching every drill bit shank i could find that was close to .450 ..
and as most here already mentioned it looks like a .441 dia bullet is going to be my best choice along with the papermill paper to get started
i wrapped wet, dry stretching the paper and every way i could think of ... my wife wasnt impressed with me using the mouse pad as a work station .

i was impressed by how much you can actualy vary the finished dia just by doing it a differant way

i guess i just need to make a choice on what mold to buy ... i am leaning towards Dons suggestion of going with one of old west's adjustable molds .
the price is reasonable and the one mold of his i seen first hand looked very nice .
the greasers ive been shooting are a 535 grn postell and while they shoot very well im not conviced i need that heavy and long a bullet ..

i still need to research .. neck tension and what cases to use
from what i have read i'm going to guess that the ww cases ive been using arent my best choice . i do have a bag of 50 unused remington cases to try

[Red River Rick]

i guess i just need to make a choice on what mold to buy ... i am leaning towards Dons suggestion of going with one of old west's adjustable molds .


SS40 70:

Old West doesn't make a adjustable Paper Patch mould.

My mistake, they do make adjustable moulds

As far as I know, I'm NOT the only one!

RRR

[ss40_70]

thank you for clearing up my confusion , i have a bit of information overload happening

[Don McDowell]

Red River Rick, Old WESt makes several adjustable nose pour paper patch moulds. I own two of them at the moment.

40-70 I think you'll like that Old West .441 bullet, I'ld set the length to no longer than 1.35 inches, looking for a weight of 500 grs +- a very few. Or set it down to 1.1 inches and shoot a 425 gr bullet like the original 45-75 Sharps load, very accurate in all of my 45-70's.
I have a Lyman 45-70 size die that sizes the cases down just the right amount to barely let the patched bullet slide in..
I find Remington cases to work the best in my shiloh. Winchester are alright altho the case rim thickness varies enough it can give some small shaving problems in my Shiloh chamber.

[Lead pot]

Rick.

I keep looking at that funny looking black wood Sharps with a south pawed flush handle and a big eye on it :?

That is a nice Buck Feller what's the story behind all of this??

[Red River Rick]

Red River Rick, Old WESt makes several adjustable nose pour paper patch moulds. I own two of them at the moment.



Don:

Thanks for clarifying that info, I wasn't sure and obviously wrong!

RRR

[EDK]

Aside from all the remarks, there is a book on the subject if it's still around, called
The Paper Jacket by Paul Matthews
Wolfe Publishing Co.
Prescott Arizona
It covers EVERYTHING on the subject including how to do it.
Might be out of print and you would need to check with used book dealers.

The Matthews book is pretty good...has been reprinted by Wolfe and is readily available...got a second copy sealed in plastic. You might also consider getting a copy of LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCH BULLETS, A BEGINNERS' GUIDE by Randolph Wright. (SHILOH has it and sold a bunch at Quigley in 2010.)

:Fire::cbpour::redneck:

[Don McDowell]

RR Rick, no problem. Brooks and Leeth also make nose pour adjustables, and there's another one somewhere in the midwest, but I can't recall the name at the moment.

[Buckshot]

...............SWAGE'EM [smilie=1:

http://www.fototime.com/F5B2831828DBFE3/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/4C9F502AC298773/standard.jpg

LEFT: Cup based 530gr HP's .443" wet wrapped with 9# onionskin, .450" RIGHT: 560gr cup based solids. A bit much for a 20" twist:D Worked okay in an 18" twist Rigby.

http://www.fototime.com/60E6988607F591E/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1A262E95FAAAC0D/standard.jpg

LEFT: 38-55, 292gr FBHP .374" patched with 9# onionskin, .381" RIGHT: Same slugs, center 2 run up into .374" sizer (bore size) so they could be seated out for MORE POWDER! :lol:

http://www.fototime.com/0FDEA25C2215222/standard.jpg

Just for fun, 577-450. Lee 457-405 solids patched 'as cast' (.458") using 20# bond for .472" over 38.0grs IMR3031, sorry :coffeecom

...................Buckshot

[Lead pot]

I swage and cast. The swage bullets are true and the length and bases can be changed as to what ever you want and one can take the cast bullets that are not filled as the mould warms up for cores and just run them through the swage and make then a few grains lighter but I cant say they shoot any better then a properly cast bullet will.
The expense is high to get set up for swaging and getting dies made in reasonable time is tough. You better have patience waiting to get the dies you order.
There are only three guys that make swage dies. The two Corbins and CH4D and I think Rick Kalynuik (KAL Tool & Die) Is starting to maybe get into making them.
One can swage a almost perfect consistent bullet using alloyed wire a lot faster then then casting but again with the custom moulds now being made and if your casting skills are up to par a cast bullet will shoot just a good as the swagged bullet.

Lp.

[Don McDowell]

Good looking bullets buckshot

[RMulhern]

Rick.

I keep looking at that funny looking black wood Sharps with a south pawed flush handle and a big eye on it :?

That is a nice Buck Feller what's the story behind all of this??

Kurt

I'll reply by PM! Noone here interested in hunting![smilie=f:;)

[wiljen]

Kurt

I'll reply by PM! Noone here interested in hunting![smilie=f:;)


no, never - none of us ever hunt around here.

:kidding:

[Lead pot]

Buckshot those are all fine bullet profiles except maybe the 560 grain for the slow twist. Especially the long elliptical nose. I have two for the .44-90 BN and they go crazy past 400 yards in my 1/19 ROT but they should do good in my .44-100 Rem straight with a 1/17 ROT when I get it build. Still waiting for the reamer. I had a bunch of them cast @ .432" and ran them through my .446 swage die that has the profile like your left .443's.

[Buckshot]

................Actually I only threw that post in there for the fun of it. It IS a viable means to get the EXACT shape you want with one caveat, and that is it AIN'T gonna have grease grooves [smilie=l: And yes it's spendy to start, and then buy new dies. I made the swage die set for the 38-55. But then again you run into that money thing. Unless someone gives you the lathe and all the tooling, along with the desire and knowledge, it isn't cheap.

...............Buckshot

[Lead pot]

BS

Back in the 60's you could get a swage die that would swage a GG bullet. I might still have a die in my "obsolete" box under the bench that Herters sold.

[Buckshot]

BS

Back in the 60's you could get a swage die that would swage a GG bullet. I might still have a die in my "obsolete" box under the bench that Herters sold.

.............I've seen one to make 158 SWC's, and the result seemed to be at least "Pistol Worthy" :veryconfu. I don't know how it'd work to produce match grade 400 - 500+ grain slugs though, but I wouldn't bet money on the outcome.

...............Buckshot

[Lead pot]

The Herter dies were pretty crude looking but they worked and shot pretty good.
The Hemp swage was a better die set but nothing larger then the .32 cal for rifles.

[ss40_70]

ive been doing a lot of reading and ive nearly convinced myself to go with a a old west adj mold in .441 dia but i have just a couple more questions .

one thing i havent found a whole lot of info on is total paper thickness vs groove depth .
my bore is spot on at .450 and my groove dia is .4575 just up from the chamber and .457 at the muzzle

so my question is if i patch right to .450 or just under at .448-.449 am i going to have problems with the patch not being cut all the way threw due to my paper being thicker then my groove depth

and my next question , is what do i need to measure the wall thickness of my cases so i can get a correct dia m die for neck tension

[Don McDowell]

The paper will shred, no worries there.
If you're going to use the M die , best to just get one at .450 or 451 so it opens the case just enough to take the patched bullet. Be sure and chamfer the case mouths, it'll save you having to repatch a bullet no and again.

[RMulhern]

Check the diameter of your compression rod! Mine is .450" and when I chamfer the mouth of the cases with a 22* tool...the compression plug will just barely fit into the mouth of the case to slightly enlarge if that's what's needed!

[ss40_70]

i think im ready to give this a whirl , come next week as long as the better half aproves my purchase i am goin to order me a mold from bernie ,

as an added plus i go next thursday to get this chunk of plaster off my leg and hopefully back to work as soon as possible

[Don McDowell]

Well here's to hoping for a great doctors visit.
You'll have a lot of fun with this paper patching. Frustrating sometimes but fun always.

[ss40_70]

i tried to order a mold today .... the wife had other ideas on that i guess we might have spent to much on the holidays , i guess it wont be to hard to wait another month or so it is winter after all ...

[Don McDowell]

Well hang in there, hopefully your cast comes off and you're back to work, then the bank account looks better.

[ss40_70]

the cast is coming off thursday regardless .
and back to work , i need that more for piece of mind right now the boredom is going to drive me crazy ... i kinda think the wife not lettin me buy the mold isnt about money , its about getting even for me working on her last nerve

[RMulhern]

If I had to ask my wife what I could do....I reckon I wouldn't have the first Sharps rifle!

[giz189]

That's right, Rick. By the way nice buck. I only got to kill one of south arkansas doe with a patched wheel weight this year, put the smackdown on her though. Tell us the story. We'd love to hear it. We all heard you used Pyrodex!!!

[ss40_70]

rmulhern , i reckon theres a lot of truth in that , but theres also that old saying .. a fool and his money are soon parted . i just happen to be a fool when it comes to money

[ss40_70]

i got to thinkin about the ask my wife remark mr mulhern and i dont think you was tryin to be a jerk or anything i just thought i'd let you know how things work in my house .

my wife takes care of the money and does a very good job of it to i learned early on that i am not a good money manager and lucky for me i dont have to be because of her .
we have priorities here with me having a rather modest income the essentiols come first .
food housing heat and electricity in that order my lovely wife in 17 years has never failed to keep all four of those even in tough times ,..
after those come clothing for the kids the things they need to get by in school and all of the things kids want , as you probably know keeping girls in cloths gets expensive .
after all the kids and household obligations are met we might think about ourselves and what we want and need with our hobbies taking a back seat to everything else .

now getting to the ask my wife part ,. i do not ask her if i can buy anything !
i do tell her what i want along with about how much its going to cost and we discuss it
and she in turn does the same if theres something she wants .
this has worked out very well for us over the years not once have we ever fought about money . because i respect her if she says hey we realy shouldnt buy this right now i do not question her judgment , i just wait untill she tells me to go ahead and buy it

i reckon if it wasnt for her i wouldnt have ever been able to afford my first shiloh

[RMulhern]

i got to thinkin about the ask my wife remark mr mulhern and i dont think you was tryin to be a jerk or anything i just thought i'd let you know how things work in my house .

my wife takes care of the money and does a very good job of it to i learned early on that i am not a good money manager and lucky for me i dont have to be because of her .
we have priorities here with me having a rather modest income the essentiols come first .
food housing heat and electricity in that order my lovely wife in 17 years has never failed to keep all four of those even in tough times ,..
after those come clothing for the kids the things they need to get by in school and all of the things kids want , as you probably know keeping girls in cloths gets expensive .
after all the kids and household obligations are met we might think about ourselves and what we want and need with our hobbies taking a back seat to everything else .

now getting to the ask my wife part ,. i do not ask her if i can buy anything !
i do tell her what i want along with about how much its going to cost and we discuss it
and she in turn does the same if theres something she wants .
this has worked out very well for us over the years not once have we ever fought about money . because i respect her if she says hey we realy shouldnt buy this right now i do not question her judgment , i just wait untill she tells me to go ahead and buy it

i reckon if it wasnt for her i wouldnt have ever been able to afford my first shiloh

ss40_70

My post WAS NOT meant to deride you or anyone else...so if you took it that way...you have my apology! Basically it was stated because to many women....a closet full of shoes FOR THEM comes first! And I was married to one of those at one time but times got better!:-P

[ss40_70]

no apologies needed mr mulhurn i didnt take offense

[RMulhern]

That's right, Rick. By the way nice buck. I only got to kill one of south arkansas doe with a patched wheel weight this year, put the smackdown on her though. Tell us the story. We'd love to hear it. We all heard you used Pyrodex!!!

giz189

"heard you used Pyrodex"

Yes sir....I love that stuff....even got stock in the company!!:p

[ss40_70]

i hafta say fella's life is good !
got my cast off i can walk on the leg with a cane fairly easiliy , doc says i'll be able to go back to work as soon as 7-10 days

and on top of that i sold/traded some stuff i didnt need for some cash and a new toy .
now ive got a new to me encore to play with and money to buy my pp mold , yes sir life is good

thanks for all the help thus far gentleman here in about 6-8 weeks e shall see how it works

[Don McDowell]

Sounds good.

[giz189]

giz189

"heard you used Pyrodex"

Yes sir....I love that stuff....even got stock in the company!!:p

It never got over 75* down there in Louisiana this past summer either did it? :kidding: