broken slide stop

[rodsvet]

Hi guys!! I have a Para P12 that is my primary carry weapon. I have two problems that have started to make me carry my Glock, and I really prefer the 45. The slide stop shears off after maybe 2-300 rounds. Both times the parts were replaced by Para Ordnance. The parts appear to be cheap castings not forged or billet. The loads practiced with are 200 SWC over 5 grains of bullseye. Do you think I should try a forged stop or do you think that may cause stress to other parts and that breaking the stop is an indication of some other problem and not just poor castings? I hate to send the weapon to Tussey and spend the $'s, but maybe thats what I need. Any insights would be appreciated. Thanks, Rod

[Casting Timmy]

The very last post sounds interesting, actually it seems like a couple other people are having the same issue.

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=4&t=2450

[Frank46]

Had a problem with my 1911, wouldn't lock back on an empty mag. Put an ed brown slide stop in and no further problems. Is the para slide stop like the 1911?. Frank

[rodsvet]

The stops for my Colt and Springfield don't work in the Para. I guess I'll ship it off to Terry Tussey and pay a craftsman to remedy the situation. Thanks, Rod

[rmcc]

Try Rick with Competition Specialties. I have 2 Para's. One is 7 LDA that had the same problem. Too it to him, don't know exactly which stop he used but cured the problem.


Rich

[Ronbo256]

I'd contact Chuck Warner at www.Warnerpistols.com, He will be happy to help you out.

[rodsvet]

I called and talked to John at Cylinder and Slide about my problem. He felt that the parts from Para were cheap production parts and should be replaced. I ordered their tactical hammer, trigger disconnector. and sear 4.5 lb. kit and a forged slide stop. The P12 is a bitch to "drop" the kit into, but once in it is fantastic and well worth the effort. The forged slide stop was the only part that required any fitting as it is really designed for the single stack Colt. I put in a new Wolf 23 lb. recoil spring and man is the pistol better than new!! Thanks for the replies. Rod

[andremajic]

Somebody chime in and correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an improperly fit barrel cause undue stress on the slide stop from the link pin pressing the barrel into lockup. I'm thinking that either:

The barrel locking lugs need some more fitting.

or improper size link putting too much stress on that part.

Andy.

[wv109323]

I have never heard of a broken slide stop in a 1911. Where are they breaking at?
The stress (if any) would be where the barrels lugs lock up. I would try a quality aftermarket slide stop. Make sure that the gun (unloaded) goes into full battery easily. There should be no interference between barrel lugs and the slide stop. Ideally it will be a zero tolerance but not an interference.

[DCM]

Andre and WV have some good points. I have never seen this condition myself. I have an "old" p14 that I fitted an extended stop to that I have never had an issue with.

Exactly where is it breaking??

[rodsvet]

The stop was breaking the pin just to the right of the link. You can see that the parts are MIM. Para says they had a slew of porous pins and have since beefed the new ones up. There is no peening of the slide or the barrel lugs. The barrel locks up well. This has only happened recently and I have fitted a new forged stop and will try it out next time I'm at the range. Thanks for the input. Rod

[MtGun44]

"You can see that the parts are MIM." So what are you are seeing? MIM parts done
by a quality house are very much the same as forged parts. I would expect cast to look
different but not MIM, but I haven't actually broken any MIM parts ever, but I have run
a Kimber through about 50-60K rounds of .45 ACP with the 2 lb trigger that I put on it
the day I bought it (stock parts) staying a 2 lb, perfectly safe trigger to this day.

Are you sure these are MIM? MANY 1911 parts are being cast these days.

I would think that the lugs are fitted badly to cause this kind of a failure. You should mark
the bottom surface of the lugs with magic marker and assemble the gun and fire once or
twice and then dissassemble and look at the marker. The marker should be worn off evenly
on each lug, ideally with full width contact. If you are getting hard camming from improper
bottom shape on the lugs it can put tremendous loads into the cross pin, or maybe it is all
bearing on one lug and if it is cast I can see this may be breaking it.

I think putting a forged stop in will just be masking the problem which sounds like a badly
fitted set of barrel lugs.

Bill

[rodsvet]

You, as others make a good point. The parts were whatever Para was putting in for replacements. I assumed they were MIM. Looking at them I can't tell, but the broken end looks like porous casting. I will take the pistol out to the range next week and try the magic marker drill and see what it looks like. I'm in Southern California and there are no more "real gun smiths in this part of the country. Most of them can just change parts and tell you it's fixed, Hell I can do that!! Thanks for taking the time to respond and for the advice. Rod

[MtGun44]

Please report back, even with pix, if you can on the contact pattern on the bottom portion
of the barrel lugs. This part is supposed to be carefully fitted on a match gun, but in some
guns it is not well fitted at all.

The only failures I have ever seen in slide stops is the little tip that hits the mag follower
to trip it up and lock the slide.

Bill

[rodsvet]

OK, so I finally got to the range and fired 100 rounds of hardball plus 100 rounds of 225 RNL reloads backed by 5 grains of Bullseye. The barrel appears to lockup into the slide cleanly . However, when I cleaned the barrel, the link hole for the slide stop pin is elongated and the link is cracked in two place. Something is definitely putting a lot of strain and trying to stretch the link. I guess the this is the reason that I kept breaking the cast slide stop pins. I think I had better take it to a smith as I can change parts but have no real idea on how to fit parts. Thanks for your comments. Rod

[MtGun44]

Yes, my guess is that the link is too short for the lugs. Probably somebody replaced
the link with one too short, or one leg on the lugs is too long, which will twist the
whole assembly out of shape and break stuff.

It's not rocket science, but you do have to know how all the parts are supposed to
work together, and be able to fit the parts.

Bill

[Ragnarok]

The barrel is supposed to bottom out at the back of the frame..simultanious to the back of the barrel lugs contacting the frame.

Sounds to me like the op's slide-stop is also acting as the 'barrel stop'

[rodsvet]

An update on my Para p12. I sent the pistol to Kent Singletary. He looked it over and couldn't be definitive about the reason it was shearing slide stops. The lugs and frame had some battering, but nothing unusual for 2500 plus rounds. He did however find 3 small cracks in the barrel, one along the chamber. He's going to fit a new barrel and link, test fire, recheck and send it back to me. Hope the new barrel corrects the problem. I know Kents work and trust the pistol will be as good as new. Rod

[John 242]

An update on my Para p12. I sent the pistol to Kent Singletary. He looked it over and couldn't be definitive about the reason it was shearing slide stops. The lugs and frame had some battering, but nothing unusual for 2500 plus rounds. He did however find 3 small cracks in the barrel, one along the chamber. He's going to fit a new barrel and link, test fire, recheck and send it back to me. Hope the new barrel corrects the problem. I know Kents work and trust the pistol will be as good as new. Rod

Man, 2500 rounds really isn't that many to have all those issues.
Broken link, slide stops, frame battering... even if only a little... CRACKS IN THE BARREL! Man, that's a lot of wear and tear!

I'm just a novice, but the your description got me thinking something wasn't right with how the lower lugs were cut. Cracking slide stops repeatedly, over and over means that there is a lot of stress being put on that pin.

I'm just thinking out loud here and if anyone can answer me a couple of questions...

MtGun44 mentioned that the link pin might not be the right length and that makes sense to me.
The length of the link controls the timing of the barrel in and out of lock up, correct?

If poor barrel lower lug fit was at fault, then a properly fit barrel with the right link should fix the problem, as I understand it. But, I wonder though, what if the hole for the slide stop is a few thousandths off? I wonder how that would affect things?

Anyway, I dig these kind of threads because they really get the brain going...
Good luck to you. I hope your gun gets sorted out. It's a shame that you had to someone other than the manufacturer to get the problem resolved.

[rodsvet]

Thanks for the post John. Kent Singletary is a premier gunsmith when it comes to the 1911. He originally said I should contact Para Ordnance as there might be a warranty. But my P12 was made in the mid 90's and they didn't offer their lifetime warranty till 2001 or so. I feel better having Kent fix it than Para since they were the ones that originally fit the barrel and link. I hope the new barrel is as accurate as the old one. I can shoot the P12 better than I can my TRP from Springfield. Follow up shots are faster also with less mass to bring back down on the target. [for me at least] Rod

[John 242]

I'm bumping this up because I've been doing a bit of research on the Verticle Impact Surface (VIS) where the lower barrel lugs strike the frame.

First, I was reading here;
http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=120227&page=6
I found at post #135 that Chuck Rogers (Pistolwrench) mentions that he often needs to modify the VIS on Paras to correct improper link down timing. He modifies the frame because there is not enough distance from the slide stop pin to the VIS.
(Para pistols are mentioned measuring .325 while .335 was said to be normal. My Kimber measures .342)

There is a timing test here under "1911 timing";
http://www.schuemann.com/Information/tabid/67/Default.aspx

From what I understand, there is also a timing test in Kuhnhausen's .45 Automatic Volume 2 (which unfortunately, I do not have).

Based on what I understand so far, correct timing on a 1911 is absolutely critical to barrel life.

The battering that was described by the OP and subsequent major damage to the barrel lugs, link and slide stops indicate that something is "out of whack".

Also...
Note that the above mentioned thread includes a really interesting discussion of the "bow tie" relief cut in the VIS and its purpose of preventing broken lower barrel lugs.

[rodsvet]

Just thought I'd revive this to say a few things. Kent Singletary is one hell of a gunsmith. He had a hard time repairing the P12 because the early Para's have a lot of "New Model" problems. He ordered a new barrel from Para Ordnance only to find out that it was 125 thousandths too short for the slide. Para Ordnance does not make a barrel to fit the early slides. The original barrel was not fitted properly as were several other of the original parts. He put in more hours custom fitting parts and testing than the pistol is worth. After much fitting, stoning, and installing new parts, the pistol is good [better] than new. He kept his price as originally quoted and I know he made no money on the deal. He even put in new springs and didn't even charge me. I'm sure he can't do this and stay in business, so I just want everyone who needs expert smithing to give him shot at your custom work. He is a true old school craftsman. Sorry about the long post. Rod

[DCM]

Where and how do we get in touch with this gentleman?

[rodsvet]

Kent Singletary is the owner of kscustom.com. His web site is KS custom. He is located in Glendale Arizona. Phone is 602 526 6836. Really a nice guy!! Good luck, Rod