6.5 Carcano

[GT27]

Doe's anyone one have any load data using IMR 4198 for the 170 grn.Lee Cruise Missle in the 6.5 Carcano? I did a web search and a forum search and came up nada! Thanks in advance!:cbpour:

[swheeler]

14-16 gr IMR 4198, 1306-1464fps

[GT27]

Thank you,it's very much appreciated!

[MtGun44]

Have you slugged your bore? My rifle and carbine throw .264 bullets into 24"+ "groups",
but will shoot .267 Italian surplus ammo into 1-3" at 100yds.

My guess is that you will need about .269" to .270" sized diameter for the Carcano.

Bill

[GT27]

It slugs at.269 so I bought a LCM mold from a member here that was gracious enough to sell it.It has a 1-12 twist,so Im speculating this boolit is going to be too heavy and too long-170 grain/drill bit.Can I have this mold milled to produce a 120-130 grain-ish boolit that would match the rifles twist better,opinions? Thanks! Glenn

[swheeler]

It slugs at.269 so I bought a LCM mold from a member here that was gracious enough to sell it.It has a 1-12 twist,so Im speculating this boolit is going to be too heavy and too long-170 grain/drill bit.Can I have this mold milled to produce a 120-130 grain-ish boolit that would match the rifles twist better,opinions? Thanks! Glenn

Glenn; I think you have a gain twist barrel Carcano, only the model 1941 has a fixed rate of twist of approx 1 in 8 inches.

[MtGun44]

If the gun has been shortened, as some have been, the high rate twist has been removed
and the gain is lost. This will really reduce the ablilty to stabilize the long boolits and bullets.
The original guns had very fast twist to stabilize the very long 160 RN bullets. No way 1-12
will do that.

Look carefully for gain twist, or signs of the barrel being shortened. My bet is that 1-12 will
only support a 80-100 gr boolit, but look up the Greener formula and check out what the
reality will be. Length is all that matters, which is slightly indirectly related to wt.

Bill

[Buckshot]

...............A number of the M91's were shortened into carbines in 1924 and lost the fastest portion of the gaintwist. A large number of these reworks were as "Rifle grenade Launchers" as the rifle barrels delivered poor accuracy. I do not believe any of the 6.5mm carbines featured a gaintwist barrel.

.............Buckshot

[GT27]

Thanks everybody for the info,one don't realize the knowledge here until you post,I will check the bore out closer and report back for more info,thanks again!:cbpour:

[swheeler]

Here's what I show;

91 Fucile
91 CAv
91TS
91/24 TS
91/28 TS
91/38 Cav
91/38 TS
above are 6.5 cal and gain twist

91/38 Fucile Corto
91/41 Fucile
6.5 cal and fixed twist

[GT27]

It is a 91 Cav, I think, the stock was shot, so I rebedded a different stock and this is what I ended up with,a "Guiedo' Bubba"!! The rod showed 1 1/4 turns the full length of the barrel checking the rifles twist rate,also cut one of my cast cruise missles,full length was 170 grn.,cut off to the 2nd lube band from the nose is 140 grn... Any input is appreciated!!

http://i43.tinypic.com/5ea692.jpg http://i42.tinypic.com/w8q55g.jpg

[swheeler]

Nice looking Carcano! What scope mount is that, can you slip a clip under it to load?

[GT27]

Nice looking Carcano! What scope mount is that, can you slip a clip under it to load?

swheeler,it came from here http://tickbitesupply.com/akmt.html MNT-AKSM,$39.99, a all steel mount made for the AK.I bought 2 because I liked it so well on my AK, and the description said it" could be used for other applications with a little imagination".I mounted it on the side of the Carcano,drilled into the side of the receiver,tapped it and installed the supplied fine thread bolts to hold it on. The rings were at 5" above the breech,plenty enough to load with the chargers full,but I didn't like the height,most would have left it alone but I wasn't satisfied, so I cut the mount down in height,and re-welded it,smoothed everything down,and refinished. This mount has 2 mounting screws for zero(height),and a fine threaded bolt that is the main point of holding it ,as well as a ball & socket on the front for mounting.I have to take the mount off to charge the rifle,but not loosening the bottom screw returns the scope to zero,that's the beauty of this mount as well as being as strong as the rifle itself.Now all I do is loosen the top elevation screw,the main bolt,charge the rifle,reinstall the mount,tighten it down,it's back to zero, and the scope sits a 1-1/2 above the bore!Now if I could only find boolits for it to reload,instead of buying the $50.00 box of Norma imports!:shock: I would have a decent little deer,or scout rifle...:violin:With this dilemma it's still just a 24" MOA beautiful bore Carcano...

[swheeler]

Thanks, I'll look. FWIW Grafs has Hornady 6.5/.268 blems for 18.00 per hundred, just got a bag of them a couple weeks ago.

[GT27]

Thanks for the heads up!

[swheeler]

GT 27; I didn't completely finish testing the Carcano with Jacketed and cast but have actual shot data for jacketed 160 gr Hornady with H4350,AA3100,H4831,H335, IMR 3031, and IMR 4895. Cast bullets of 170gr,125gr(270mold) 130gr(7mm mold) with IMR4198,T5070,T5020,T870,AA5744,Hercules Unique, Alliant 2400,WC860 and WC872. I had a 24x Tasco scope on a Weaver side mount for testing then removed it after, couldn't charge with enbloc clip. If any of these are on hand powders for you, and interested just PM me. Scott

[GT27]

Thanks Scott,will do! I'm on a search for some boolits that will at least give a minute of pie-plate group,all I have right now are these LCM's(20 penny nails)when I find something, I'll give you a shout,thanks alot! Glenn

[MtGun44]

Don't even bother trying the Norma ammo. I have no idea how they continue to sell that
junk!. The bullets are .264 and in my 2 Carcanos, they will shoot into about 24" or so at
100 yds. The rifle has a really good bore as far as condition, and shoots real well with the
few Italian surplus rounds that I have tried that still go bang, so I know it is the stupid
undersized ammo. Same result for 160 RN and 140 FMJ spire Norma ammo. Just worthless,
AND super expensive.

Buy Hornady ammo, it has proper diameter bullets and while expensive, it will let you hunt
with that rifle. Also, the Hornady bullets are available as components, too.

That is a really impressive looking scope mount!

Bill

[GT27]

Thanks MtGun44,I had done a lot of research on AK mounts,and for $50.00 shipped, this in my opinion is the best! I'm going to suggest that anyone even remotely interested to purchase them now as they show limited quantities... As far as the Carcano 6.5 ×52,I'm really surprised that there are no casting molds in .268 to alleviate this problem,and allow shooters some type of at least decent accuracy 4" MOA is reasonable for this rifle IMHO!!!I do realize the guns are from the 1900's but around 25 years ago they flooded the market with them for sales, and if I remember correctly their wasn't much of a choice of decent ammo for these then.
It makes me feel like I'm the one of the few that want to make a shooter out of this paperweight,when I know there are others that have this gun, and caliber, and have just given up on it!]Is Lee really that independent in this economy??? "Frustration"...,"and then the depression set in"...LOL...:groner:[smilie=b:[smilie=l:Thanks for letting me rant!! BTW,I shot a message to Lee explaining the situation,I want to see how good their customer service is,maybe a reply??

[herbert buckland]

CBE makes a .268 mould for the Carcano

[MtGun44]

Typically for rifles, you want to size to .002 or .003 larger than groove diameter in the .30 cal
range. So if you think in terms of percentage oversized, probably for a .267 groove diam you
would want a .269 boolit, and want a raw casting of .270 or .271.

If the groove diam is .268, then .270 would be a good diameter to start with for a boolit.

Bill

[GT27]

Thanks Bill,I think I'm looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack at this point!Glenn

[GT27]

This is my response from Lee Manufacturing... Mr. Smith:

I understand what you are saying and offer you a solution.

We make Custom Bullet Molds to your specifications for a $150 setup and tooling fee plus the cost of the mold. When we receive your mold design, we will enter in the order and charge you. It is our policy that for ALL custom orders you submit payment with your order. If you should cancel your order after it has been placed and processed, the charge for the mold is refundable, but the tooling fee is NON-refundable. Double cavity molds are $26.00 and six cavity molds are $52.00. The above setup and tooling fees will be waived on orders of 30 pieces or more. Dealers and Distributors will receive their discount on orders of 100 pieces or more. As with all orders, Shipping/Handling is $5.00 per order. If you are interested, please view Bullet Mold Design Assitance Sheet.

Maximum bullet mold dimensions for standard mold blocks; (all dimensions in inches) double cavity, .600 dia. .900 length; six cavity, .520 dia. 1.000 length.

Lead time for all custom bullet molds is currently about 6 weeks, but could become longer with demand.



Andy
Design Engineer

Lee Precision, Inc.
4275 Highway U
Hartford, WI 53027
phone: 262-673-3075

Ticket HistoryGlenn Smith (Client) Posted On: 11 December 2011 12:19 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hello,I own a Calvary Carbine Italian Carcano in 6.5x52.The twist rate in the barrel is 1/12".I realize this is a caliber from the 1900's but 25 years ago sellers flooded the market with these rifles to sell to the general public.As far as factory ammo Privi-Partizen,and Norma make ammo for these rifles with a bullet that is .264 in diameter.The general bore size on these were .268 leaving very poor accuracy to be obtained!Hornady makes ammo now and sells their bullets as a component,which are very expensive btw!!You manufactured a mold which is for the 6.5mm swede 170 grain which is candidly referred to as the "Cruise Missile"which is the closest thing to using a cast bullet in this rifle but with the 1/12 twist rate is way to long and way to heavy.I am a member of The Cast Boolits Forum,and there are several other members there with the same problem in this caliber.Would you please consider making a mold in 80-125 grain,shorter length,somewhat spire, with 2 lube grooves for this caliber,like I said the market was flooded with these rifles,and by looking at the forums you can see the need for something that will satisfy the needs of the owners of these rifles,please don't consider these rifles obsolete as they are definitely here!Please, in this economy manufacturing this will be advantageous for the company, and the consumer,the need is most definitively here! Thank you! Glenn Smith

Ticket Details

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ticket ID: ZDT-882-62879
Department: CustomerService
Type: Issue
Status: Closed
Priority: Normal

Support Center: http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?

[GT27]

:Bright idea:My next question is,are there 30 of us that are interested enough to invest in this endeavor,and who has the smarts to draw up what would satisfy all 30?

[MtGun44]

I would recommend a variant on the 311466 boolit design. You can set up a group buy
on the group buy section.

PM .45 2.1 and ask if he could draw up a .272 as-cast diameter variant of the 311466 Loverin
design with a flat point suitable for hunting, in the ~100-110 grain wt range, something akin to the
311407 - oh, yes and you will want a gas check design, too. He is a very experienced
boolit designer, ask if he sees anything wrong with what I just recommended above.

Please either ask him to check it against the Greener formula for stability with a 1:12 twist,
or do that yourself once you have the length of the boolit. You may need a shorter boolit than
110 gr. The flat point will help.

Loverins are pretty forgiving and I think you'll have best results with this design. Heck, I may
even go for one myself. If you use .272 as cast, for a .268 groove diam, you add .002 or .003 and
get .270-.271 as a shooting diameter. This is just a slight size down from the as cast diameter.

Bill

[45 2.1]

I would recommend a variant on the 311466 boolit design. You can set up a group buy
on the group buy section.

PM .45 2.1 and ask if he could draw up a .272 as-cast diameter variant of the 311466 Loverin
design with a flat point suitable for hunting, in the ~100-110 grain wt range, something akin to the
311407 - oh, yes and you will want a gas check design, too. He is a very experienced
boolit designer, ask if he sees anything wrong with what I just recommended above.

Please either ask him to check it against the Greener formula for stability with a 1:12 twist,
or do that yourself once you have the length of the boolit. You may need a shorter boolit than
110 gr. The flat point will help.



Bill

One problem there Bill............ most of the military 6.5mm rifles have long throats for the 160ish gr. bullets. You get something a lot less and it bounces before it hits the throat and usually won't shoot for beans. Most of the 129 gr to 140 gr. Lyman molds all have the same boolit body length for this reason. The only problem with them is that they cast too small. My suggestion is that he turn around a CM and check the bearing length for the rifle (length from base of neck to base end of boolit useing a very lightly sized case neck so it will let the CM slide to proper length).
Question for GT27........ what does shoot in your rifle? Matching its specs (in cast) would ensure better results.

[GT27]

45 2.1,first and foremost thank you for replying, and your input is very much appreciated!I slugged the bore it mic'ed at .268.The bore looks shiny and bright,twist is 1 in 12",barrel length is 18".I have the Lee 6.5 Swede mold "known as the cruise missile"!I cast 25 boolits with this mold and they measure .270 unsized.I haven't shot them yet,but according to what I have read on here, and by my "hillbilly calculations" the group should be around 50MOA because of length, and weight!Several here have these guns,and I for one, feel the need to have something that we can at least obtain some kind of realistic groups.. Thanks again! GT27

[45 2.1]

I slugged the bore it mic'ed at .268.The bore looks shiny and bright,twist is 1 in 12",barrel length is 18".I have the Lee 6.5 Swede mold "known as the cruise missile"!I cast 25 boolits with this mold and they measure .270 unsized.I haven't shot them yet,but according to what I have read on here, and by my "hillbilly calculations" the group should be around 50MOA because of length, and weight!Several here have these guns,and I for one, feel the need to have something that we can at least obtain some kind of realistic groups.. Thanks again! GT27

Well, it's fairly well known that the Swede is an experts or graduates rifle. This caliber in the 6.5x55 defines just how well you can reload with cast. The 6.5 Carcano is basically the same provided you have a rifle that is capable of accuracy. To get really good groups one must load it another way. It takes considerable time to learn that way. Even with instructions you will probably fail on your own. It is as far from smokelss reloading as is blackpowder from smokelss is. SO, don't take what the so-called experts say here.................. because they don't know how (even though they say they do). You can get excellent groups well above 2200 fps with so called unstable boolits.
Now...... just what jacketed bullet shoots well in your rifle. What weight and length is it and how fast are you shooting it? Then we can define some of the parameters your seeking.

[Larry Gibson]

For that rifle with the faster part of the gain cut off I would try to find a Lyman 280468. Get a custom Lee sizer for .270. I would size the 280468s in a .277 size, seating the CG and lubing all grooves full. Then I would push size the bullet through the Lee sizer (yes, cast bullets can be sized down that much, especially with the lube grooves filled with lube). That will give a 110 gr cast bullet of 311466 design at will fit the rifles throat with the base of the GC near the base of the case neck and the driving bands well supported by the throat and probably very close to the leade.

It should shoot well in remainder of the gain twist left in the barrel, probably better than any other design when pushed to 2000+ fps. If it didn't then MtGun44 is correct in that a lighter weight bullet is needed. It is difficult to correctly measure a gain twist barrel that has been cut off to determine what the bullet is actually spinning at. Apparently from “The rod showed 1 1/4 turns the full length of the barrel checking the rifles twist rate” you measured the twist as per a constant twist rate barrel. That doesn’t quite work out correctly with a gain twist so I’m wondering if the 12” twist is correct?

Larry Gibson

[GT27]

I'll get a range report together with the Norma factory,and what I reloaded(14 grains of IMR 4198)with the CM and report back then.Iv'e only shot this rifle with the battle irons and the groups before were MOBarn.I'll get some factual evidence together though,thanks!:target_smiley:

[GT27]

For that rifle with the faster part of the gain cut off I would try to find a Lyman 280468. Get a custom Lee sizer for .270. I would size the 280468s in a .277 size, seating the CG and lubing all grooves full. Then I would push size the bullet through the Lee sizer (yes, cast bullets can be sized down that much, especially with the lube grooves filled with lube). That will give a 110 gr cast bullet of 311466 design at will fit the rifles throat with the base of the GC near the base of the case neck and the driving bands well supported by the throat and probably very close to the leade.

It should shoot well in remainder of the gain twist left in the barrel, probably better than any other design when pushed to 2000+ fps. If it didn't then MtGun44 is correct in that a lighter weight bullet is needed. It is difficult to correctly measure a gain twist barrel that has been cut off to determine what the bullet is actually spinning at. Apparently from “The rod showed 1 1/4 turns the full length of the barrel checking the rifles twist rate” you measured the twist as per a constant twist rate barrel. That doesn’t quite work out correctly with a gain twist so I’m wondering if the 12” twist is correct?
Larry Gibson


Thanks for the reply Larry!I was told by a member here to use a (larger)bo
re brush then count a mark on the rod for its twist rate-1 full turn after 12" of travel.What is the way to determine this?I cant tell if the barrel is a cut-off or not by looking...At the end(about a inch from the crown ) is a engraved marking that looks like CAL.St Alb...???For me the velocity I obtain with this rifle is negligible as the accuracy is my main concern. I know finding the right combo is key,Ive been reloading for 25 years,but I'm NOOB new to the casting process! I realize that this will never be a Weatherby Vanguard,but being able to deer hunt,making shots up to 100 yards is realistic, I think? [smilie=b:

[JIMinPHX]

Here's what I show;

91 Fucile
91 CAv
91TS
91/24 TS
91/28 TS
91/38 Cav
91/38 TS
above are 6.5 cal and gain twist

91/38 Fucile Corto
91/41 Fucile
6.5 cal and fixed twist

Is there someplace that one can look to find out how to identify which version he has?

[Larry Gibson]

That method is how you measure the twist with a constan twist barrel. With a gain twist barrel the twst gets faster toward the muzzle. Thus if you measured that from the breach and only measured 12" of barrel then it's still going to get faster toward the muzzle. It is the twist at the muzzle end that will establish the rotational twist of the bullet from a gain twist barrel. Frankly I'm not sure how to measure a gain twist correctly, perhaps someone does?

CAL.St Alb; that is the importer.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Is there someplace that one can look to find out how to identify which version he has?

Try this http://personal.stevens.edu/~gliberat/carcano/

[GT27]

http://i39.tinypic.com/kecidk.jpghttp://i40.tinypic.com/34hhyc7.jpg This is the original stock as when the rifle was purchased for $29.00- 28 years ago...short stock!

[GT27]

This is the same exact same profile gun,(except mine has a adjustable rear sight for elevation),seems to be a 91/38TS,Engineer/Cavalry model...Still did this model have a gain twist barrel?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80pRECh4RCg&feature=related

[Buckshot]

This is the same exact same profile gun,(except mine has a adjustable rear sight for elevation),seems to be a 91/38TS,Engineer/Cavalry model...Still did this model have a gain twist barrel?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80pRECh4RCg&feature=related

................ It's a M91 Moschetto Truppe Speciali (TS), or Special Troops Carbine in 6.5x52.

http://www.fototime.com/9CC81583032A470/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/1FE24E99E7DD71D/standard.jpg

This is one I bought for $75 about 8 years ago. It's of post capitulation manufacture as it doesn't bear the Roman numerals denoting the current year of facist rule.

http://www.fototime.com/371130D084561ED/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B26D2494941FFC5/standard.jpg

It may have been carried around for ceremonial guard or drill purposes as it has a couple of small dents and compressions in the stock.

http://www.fototime.com/BCBFC1FE0232667/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/B9E8FB7EBD260D7/standard.jpg

I haven't tried the Lee C270 - 170 - RF (Cruise Missle) in it as it's miles too long for the magazine. Single loading is a PITA.

http://www.fototime.com/B55472729A707A9/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/320564FA7E910BB/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/AF64316B2953327/standard.jpg

LEFT PHOTO: A 6.5mm, 135gr Kurtz (GB) sized .267" and the 6.5mm 170gr (168gr here) Cruise Missle. Both examples loaded in the 6.5x55 Swede, seated to engrave. The Kurtz with 4 lube grooves exposed, and the CM with 3 exposed.
MIDDLE PHOTO: The CM showing the extent of engraving with 3 LG's AND the drive band below it exposed. Seated to the 3rd LG gives solid engraving on the nose.
RIGHT PHOTO: The Kurtz showing engraving 4 LG's and a drive band. Crimped into 5th LG. As shown in the left photo the nose only is solidly engraved.

With the possibility that your bbl may finish with a 10" twist in the last few inches of the barrel it MIGHT possibly stabilize a 120 - 125gr slug. I was going to suggest that it might be possible to size down a cast slug (130gr) intended for the 270 Win. However further thought suggests that the .256" (ish) bore would probably bottom out or engrave THROUGH the bottoms of the lube grooves in that design? I don't know as I don't own a 270, let alone cast for one. An idea might be to contact Springfield Sporters ((724) 254-2626) and see if they have any Carcano barrels on hand.

They broke down thousands of milsurp rifles over the years and appear to have a pretty complete listing of parts for the Carcano's. Years back I bought quite a few parts from them. I was refurbishing a M95 Chilean short rifle and carbine. Both had poor barrels. SS didn't have direct replacements, but they DID have lots of 7x57 small ring Mauser bbls. I bought 2 paying (at the time) $10 each extra for their time spent looking for a couple nicer ones.

You have a very nice looking Carcano there. On the one hand if the current barrel isn't going to stabilize ANYTHING available OR conceiveable what else can you do? If you like, I can ship you 20 of the 6.5mm Kurtz sized and lubed, your choice of .268", .269", or .270". I'd be more generous in the quantity if I thought it'd really be worthwhile :grin: If it were me and the barrel was like it is, I'd get a new 30 or 35 cal barrel and have it turned to a pleasing contour and chambered to 7.62x39 or 35 Remington. Those 2 are supposed to be able to fit the clips and the bolt face.

..................Buckshot

[GT27]

Buckshot,thank you for the reply, and knowledgeable input!!I'll take you up on your offer of the 6.5 Kurtz in .270! I appreciate you doing this for me,some of the best,most willing to help people I have met are on this forum!!If you give me a price I will send you funds for your time and product.If I can get something to shoot in this I would know what tools to buy for casting for it!Right now like every new firearm it's trial,and error! I really don't want to invest a lot of Denero' into this firearm as it's starting price was $29.00!But if I cant get it to at least MO Pieplate accuracy,most definitely I will take your advice and look into a re-barrel,and I definably like the 7.62x39 choice of caliber!!

[GT27]

I would like to personally thank everyone for their reply's and much valued input on this thread,great people here!!!

[swheeler]

Buckshot; when radically sizing down I always lube and seat gas check first in conventional sizer, then run through the push through sizer to final size. In this case Lee c277-125-R through Lyman 4500 with .278 die and C Red lube, bottom of lube grooves measure .250(I do not have a raw casting available) then ran through .270" push through sizer, now the dia. in lube grooves averages .245". So as long as the grooves are full off lube when sized the minor diameter sizes down also. I am sure the amount of sizing down is dependant on alloy hardness and probably several other things. Same holds true when sizing 8mm to .313-.315' and sizing the 338 bullets to .331-.335 for the M95. The grease grooves have to be full. FWIW the Lee .277-125 mold has deep enough grease grooves as is, but they size down with the bullet being .010"+ deeper than bore dia.

[swheeler]

So I just took a 135 gr 7mm cast from the Oldfeller designed 7mm soup can mold. When sized and lubed at .285" the GG measure .260", I then ran this same bullet through the .270" PT sizer, bottom of GG now measure .250", sizing this bullet down .015" sized the GG down .010" with ACWW alloy. Now sizing the .278" bullet down .008"(to .270") reduced the GG dia from .250 to .245, or .005" reduction, same alloy. From this I would guess bullet diameter comes into the formula also. I size 8mm to .313-314-.315" for 7.62 Russian, 7.7 Jap and they could be used in many more,338 bullets to .331-.335 for M95, and 270 and 7mm bullets to .270-.272 for Carcano and a few through the Swede. I figured some of you guys would have picked up on this years ago, I did.

[Larry Gibson]

swheeler is correct; lube and GC the larger diameter bullets before sizing down. As he explained the lube compresses very little and will swage the lube grooves in when the bullet sis sized down. I've sized the 280468 and 287129 down to .266 that way and had no problems with the lube grroves smearing away or with being too shallow.

Don't have pictures of those sized down but here are 2 8mm bullets sized down to .314. They shoot very well in .312-.314 barrels.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I might add that Buckshot is also correct about "With the possibility that your bbl may finish with a 10" twist in the last few inches of the barrel it MIGHT possibly stabilize a 120 - 125gr slug". That's why it's essential to determine the remaining twist rate if possible(?). It's also why I recommended the 110 gr 280468 sized down. While 120 -130 cast bullets may be questionable for stabilization there should be enough twist to stabilize that 280468 cast bullet.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Thank you Larry! That's exactly what I do to the 8mm Max, size it down to .313" and shoot it in the 7.62 Russian, 338 Lee down to .331-.335 for 8x56R, Lee 277 and 7mm down to .270 for Carcano, none have GG that bottom out in the bore on any of these rifles.

[GT27]

Now the $50,000,000.00 question is where can I obtain some of the 280468 mold boolits,sized to .270 to try, and make the "fat girl finally sing"???[smilie=1:

[Larry Gibson]

Now the $50,000,000.00 question is where can I obtain some of the 280468 mold boolits,sized to .270 to try, and make the "fat girl finally sing"???[smilie=1:

Saw one (single cavity) in a 2nd hand store a while back. Was kind of spendy at $60 + tax and they wouldn't dicker. I can see if it's still there if you're interested?

Larry Gibson

[GT27]

Larry thanks for the offer,but I was hoping somebody here had one and I could buy some from them to try first.I appreciate the offer though,do you know of anyone with this mold that would be willing to cast some up,or is this a rare mold? Thanks, Glenn

[Nelsdou44]

Buckshot has a gem of an idea:
If it were me and the barrel was like it is, I'd get a new 30 or 35 cal barrel and have it turned to a pleasing contour and chambered to 7.62x39 or 35 Remington. Those 2 are supposed to be able to fit the clips and the bolt face.

Because the 35 Rem is a bit fatter at the head, only 5 will fit in the clip, but they feed very well. I've toyed with the idea of necking up the 7.35 Carcano brass to 35. That way 6 will fit the clip and be pretty close to 35 Rem capacity. Brass necks up easily enough but would require a custom reamer for the barrel.

[Buckshot]

..............swheeler, good info on the sizing down and I appreciate it. I know liquids aren't compressable but never even thought to check for a change of depth in the LG's after sizing down :-) I used to lube-size Lyman 323470's in a .323" die and then send them up through a Lee .314" die for use in a fat bored M1909 Argie Cav Carbine.

..............GT27 "I'll take you up on your offer of the 6.5 Kurtz in .270!"

No money needed. PM me with your info. We all WILL expect a range report! ;)

...............Buckshot

[nanuk]

just a thought on measuring the twist

get a long jag and patch it tight.

mark your rod at 3" intervals, and lines at 12-3-6-9 O'clock along the length of the rod

make a sheet up to record all the numbers

start with the tight patch at the leade.

move 3", measure the rotation (Guess it? even)
move 3" " " " " " "
move 3"... etc

you might be able to get a good idea of twist rate for the last 3 or 6 inches, and from that interpolate the twist.

that should show whether the barrel has been shortened also, as you should notice the difference between a 1/8 twist as opposed to a 1/12 twist.

it may give you a starting point

[GT27]

Thanks nanuk,I'll give it a go and report back! Too" much appreciated" knowledge shared here to fail on this project! Buckshot, I'll post a review and the target,thanks so much!Thanks again to all participants on this thread,you guys are the best!

[semtav]

Glenn
It will be interesting to compare the bullets Buckshot is sending you to the ones I am sending you. When i first got my rifle running, ManleyJT sent me some of those Kurtz bullets and they shot real well . My bullets are of a later group buy and are more of a tapered rounded nose than the flat nose of the Kurtz. Mine shoot as good as those crude sights will allow. I seat them out as far as I can.

Since you have one of the Cruise Missile molds, do a search here and you will find where someone milled down one half of a cruise missile mold. Bullet looked real nice. I'm thinking of doing that with mine.
Brian



Just found it

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=73781&highlight=cruise+missile

[GT27]

Thanks semtav,after I get the boolits from you Im going to load Buckshots and yours.Then I will have all 4 varieties to compare and report on! If the CM doesn't show any hopes of grouping or if It keyholes I am most definitely going to have it milled! Thanks for doing this for me and I appreciate the link!

[dabsond]

I just had the chance to shoot some CM's through my model 41. These were unsized and tumble lubed with aluminum gas checks. They dropped from the mold at .270 and my barrel slugs at .268. OAL at 2.950, shooting at 50 yds using Prvi once fired brass.

Loaded up some with 2400 with the following results:

14 grns, keyholed but hit the target.
14.5 grns, not full key holes but still tumbling. Group was starting to close.
15 grns, still a little tumbler (makedly less). Group closing.
15.5 grns, very little tumbling. Group at about 3 inches.

I will try again soon. Starting at 15 grns moving up to 16 grns. I don't think I want to push it much past 16. I don't have a chrony, to bad. There were no signs of over or under pressure.

[JeffinNZ]

DAMSOND: When you say 'tumbling' do you mean oval boolit holes or broad side boolits strikes? The CM is prone to what I have dubbed "Wobbly Bottom Syndrome". Mine shoots fantastically in my FAT 41 Carcano but the holes are always oval out to 100m. I imagine at 200m the boolits will be tumbling.

[swheeler]

14-15 grs 2400=1476-1570 fps. 14 grs(COAL 2.895) 2.8"@50 bullets tipping, 15 gr(COAL 2.955) 2.2"@50 yds oval holes

You could try 23.0 grs IMR4895 plus dacron filler, 170CM sized .270", COAL 2.91" 1754FPS 6 shots 2"@50 yds, notes say 3 holes oval, doesn't feed from clip. I do not show the alloy, danged CRS, but believe this was 7ww/3lt 17 bhn. This is from a 91/41 with barrel shortened from 27 to 25 to get rid of bad muzzle.

[corvette8n]

I ended up sizing .277 cast to .269 for my Carcano.

[dabsond]

I just had the chance to shoot some CM's through my model 41. These were unsized and tumble lubed with aluminum gas checks. They dropped from the mold at .270 and my barrel slugs at .268. OAL at 2.950, shooting at 50 yds using Prvi once fired brass.

Loaded up some with 2400 with the following results:

14 grns, keyholed but hit the target.
14.5 grns, not full key holes but still tumbling. Group was starting to close.
15 grns, still a little tumbler (makedly less). Group closing.
15.5 grns, very little tumbling. Group at about 3 inches.

I will try again soon. Starting at 15 grns moving up to 16 grns. I don't think I want to push it much past 16. I don't have a chrony, to bad. There were no signs of over or under pressure.

At 14 grains I am talking broadside key hole.

[GT27]

Went to a friends machine shop today to see if he would mill this for me,wouldnt let me pay him for his time,pays to have great friends! Lee 6.5 Swede Cruise missile 170 grain,now milled to make 130 grain boolits.This will make 5 varieties for me to try from the generous and helpful folks here,and I very much appreciate it!!As soon as it gets above 30 degrees here I will post a report and targets.

http://i39.tinypic.com/5z4cqr.jpg

[GT27]

These are the boolits I've got to load-left is Buckshot's 6.5 Kurtz,128.5 grain -center is semtav's spire,143.5 grain,and right is the modified Cruise Missle,which I'm going to rename as the "Mini Missile",weigh's in at 130 grains. unless someone objects. I just need ( load starts) using IMR 4198 as a starting point! I have no reference on cast to go by,all of my books are for jacketed only,except handgun .The boolits were weighed using my 505 scale, and a digital scale for back-up.All boolits are with-in .03 grain from each other in all three batches,pretty good consistency if you ask me!

http://i44.tinypic.com/dmqr2q.jpg

[GT27]

Still too cold here...10 degrees,please be patient as the weather isn't permitting right now and also I do move like my butt is made of lead that doesn't help either!

[Buckshot]

.............Just checked this thread again. I have some H4198 data but it's for the Swede. I'll see whatteh Lyman manual shows for the Carcano too.

...............Buckshot

[GT27]

Thanks Buckshot,that's exactly what I need!

[semtav]

If you can't get the 4198 running, try some 4227. 15 grains worked great in mine.

[GT27]

If you can't get the 4198 running, try some 4227. 15 grains worked great in mine.

Do you have any recommendation on a starting load using IMR 4198 with the boolits you, and Buckshot sent,my only info is using jacketed,thanks!:cbpour:

[semtav]

using the 257 Roberts as an example, they start @ 16 gr and max 21.5 with a 89 gr bullet.
A 6.5 x 55 Swedish mauser starts out a 15 gr and max 26 with a 143 gr bullet.
so I'm guessing right in there somewhere

Lyman 47th edition

[Buckshot]

.............Lyman Cast bullet manual 3rd ed:

6.5x52 Carcano

129gr cast
Unique, 8-10grs 1350 - 1530 fps
2400, 19grs 1901 fps

6.5x50 Jap (very similar case dimensions)

119gr cast
4198, 22grs 1920 fps
4227, 19.5grs 1893 fps

6.5x54 MS I'd think this would be the more useable data

129gr cast
4198, 16grs 1635 fps

.................Buckshot

[swheeler]

I would use a dacron filler with the 4198

[GT27]

Thanks Buckshot! swheeler- I read somewhere where using filler raises the cup pressure to what could be dangerous levels,correct me if I'm wrong,and excuse my lack of not knowing.I can't remember where I read it somewhere on the wild-web!I'm going to try and get out tommorow to try the unmodified CM's first and get rid of the rest of the factory Norma that I have,then I can load up with the good stuff that Buckshot,and semtav sent me,both very impressive boolits!:cast_boolits:Thanks again! GT27

[Buckshot]

Thanks Buckshot! swheeler- I read somewhere where using filler raises the cup pressure to what could be dangerous levels,correct me if I'm wrong,and excuse my lack of not knowing.I can't remember where I read it somewhere on the wild-web!I'm going to try and get out tommorow to try the unmodified CM's first and get rid of the rest of the factory Norma that I have,then I can load up with the good stuff that Buckshot,and semtav sent me,both very impressive boolits!:cast_boolits:Thanks again! GT27

...............A fillers intent is to make the load more efficient, and that DOES raise presssures. That's the way smokless powder works. Pour some on the ground and light it and it burns slowly. Put it in an enclosed container, ignite it and you have a bomb. A cartridge is an enclosed container but with a safety valve in the guise of the boolit :-) So yes, a cartridge operates more toward the 'Bomb' end of things:veryconfu

If utilizing a filler you use it from the beginning of your load development. Adding a filler to a load that is only going to develop say, 15K psi in a modern rifle cartridge isn't going to blow it up. But if you were already at the raggedy edge of things and added a filler then yes you could blow the primer, or casehead and possibly wreak the firearm. Shooting cast, we're generally using the filler to keep a smaller the usual powder charge back against the primer. This has a tendancy to allow the powder charge to ignite more consistently then having it lying up against the base of the boolit, or scattered randomly within the case shot to shot.

I personally do not use a filler with powders faster then 2400. However I HAVE done simple tests of loads using like 12.0grs of Unique. Chambering and firing 5 rou nds, and then chambering and tipping the muzzle up to orient the powder, then lowering it and firing will generally show a net velocity increase and sometimes (not always) enhanced accuracy.

..............Buckshot

[swheeler]

GT27; the filler will help the reduced loading of 4198 burn cleaner by raising the pressure(ever so slightly), give more consistant ignition by positioning the powder against the primer and in my opinion help obturate the bore. All of these things will aid you in finding accuracy with your Carcano. Go back and look at post #2, 14-16 grs 4198 with 170 gr cm, your bullets are 30-40 grains lighter, at these loadings you are not going to be over pressure. Buckshot makes a good point about if going to use a filler do it from the start of work up, but many times I load two sets of test rounds, one with dacron and one without, fire in order of lightest charge to heaviest watching for signs of pressure. As far as powder speeds I use dacron with 2400 and anything slower when shooting reduced loadings for cast bullets. You don't want to use dacron as a wad tampted down tight against the powder but instead fill the space from the powder to the bullet base with fluffy dacron leaving no air space. There are many pages written here on the correct use of dacron for filler you just have to do a search.

[GT27]

Can you use cotton balls as a filler,I know the dacron is generally used to fill pillows and such? And basically how much do you use,just enough to hold said powder to the base?Loosely packed,or tight?Sorry for all the questions,Ima' learnin'!!:oops:

[GT27]

GT27; the filler will help the reduced loading of 4198 burn cleaner by raising the pressure(ever so slightly), give more consistant ignition by positioning the powder against the primer and in my opinion help obturate the bore. All of these things will aid you in finding accuracy with your Carcano. Go back and look at post #2, 14-16 grs 4198 with 170 gr cm, your bullets are 30-40 grains lighter, at these loadings you are not going to be over pressure. Buckshot makes a good point about if going to use a filler do it from the start of work up, but many times I load two sets of test rounds, one with dacron and one without, fire in order of lightest charge to heaviest watching for signs of pressure. As far as powder speeds I use dacron with 2400 and anything slower when shooting reduced loadings for cast bullets. You don't want to use dacron as a wad tampted down tight against the powder but instead fill the space from the powder to the bullet base with fluffy dacron leaving no air space. There are many pages written here on the correct use of dacron for filler you just have to do a search.

Thanks for the info,I'll do a search and become more familiar with the process.

[swheeler]

I would give those 4198 loads a try both ways, waiting for a range report on it.:)

[wallager57]

you are in luck. Privi Partesan (sp) is selling reloadable Carcano fodder for appox $15.00 a box. I bought a couple of boxes last summer, it's loaded with .264 bullets and groups roughly in the same zip code, like you I saw lead as the way to go with it. Also dyin to try slingin lead out of my mosins, and Privi Partisan is also in handy reloadable brass for it for about the same price. Think I got it at Weidners? maybe cheaper than dirt, will try to find the receipt.

[cratergrease]

Got A link for "CBE" ? I traded 3 boxes of .257 bulletsthat have been sitting on my self for years (in hopes that someday I'd get a 257 Roberts) for a carcano W 2 boxes of mil surplus ammo just this weekend, but would love to cast bullets for it.

[OBIII]

This is where I got my 6.5 Carcano reloadable ammo: http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/index.php/cName/65-carcano-fmj-ammo