Savage ML10

[Reload3006]

If there has been another post on this rifle I apologize but need to ask for myself. I have for the last couple years really been chewing hard on one of these. The Idea of using smokeless in a Muzzle loader is very appealing to me as I have pounds of the stuff from all my reloading. What are all y'alls thoughts on this rifle.

[Hickory]

I'd not buy a used one, no telling how it was used and loaded.
If it had been over loaded with smokeless powder it may be
fatigued and on the verge of coming apart.

[451 Pete]

Reload,
A very dangerous rifle. If you make a mistake with double charging a rifle with black powder you might get away with it, maybe wall nut a barrel but it probably will stay together. Double charge one of these or use too fast a burning powder ( wrong type powder ) and it will come apart. Black powder burns at lower pressures and is a lot more forgiving. I would not own one of these unless I only loaded it with black. Too many other good muzzle loaders out there you can get for the same money. I just don't trust it or myself not to make any errors. It will happen sooner or later. I'm not sure Savage makes them any more either.

Pete

[Jim]

I've not had any experience with one of these, so I can't say 'been there, done that'. To the best of my knowledge, however, there's only one kind of smokeless that can be used in this rifle. I don't know what type it is as I'm working from a vague memory of something I heard years back. I also seem to recall there's an ABSOLUTE maximum amount of powder that one can safely load. All that useless jabber being said, a stockpile of various smokeless powders would be useless in this application.

I sure these things were tested before they were put on the market, so it has to be feasable. I can't put my finger on it, it's just the idea of lighting off a charge of powder that generates a considerable amount of pressure in a M/L causes me great apprehension.

Reload, I'm sure you're a competent and careful shooter. I would never suggest otherwise. And I'm not the least bit concerned about you throwing your money away. I'd just hate to hear of you loosing parts that won't grow back.

451 Pete mentioned the danger of a double charge of powder. Seems to me the rifle might frag with a double charge of bullets, too. I fired a Lyman GPR one day with a brass ramrod left in the barrel. It kicked the livin' dog snot outa' me, but the rifle survived my stupidity. I'm not suggesting that you would do that from complacency or negligence, but, hey, we're human and we make mistakes, right? Anything happen like what I did over a charge of smokeless and there's a good chance your next destination will be the emergency room.

All I'm sayin' is, just give it a lot of thought and research. Is it worth the risk?

[Potsy]

I've shot them and would own one were I not wanting to go primitive.

Be aware you are at a whole nother level with them in terms of performance, maintainence, and necessary precautions. Loading smokeless makes them a breed apart from other inlines.

The powder range is narrow. The one folks I know use is IMR-SR-4759 (DON'T TAKE THAT AS GOSPEL!!! DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH AND DOUBLE CHECK!!).

They are finicky on powder-sabot-bullet combinations so get ready for some load workup. While you won't have Black Powder or BP substitute fouling, you will get plastic fouling and if you let it build up, accuracy WILL go downhill.

Yes, if you double load it, you will probably lose appendages or at least phalanges. But not owning one for fear of double loading is like not owning a .45 Colt for fear of dumping 18 grains of Unique. Pay attention (ALL THE TIME), don't earn any Darwin awards, and I think you'll like it.

[corey012778]

savage stopped making them because of the dangers of them.

if you want an good inline there alot of models and makers out there. bolt action, there is knight. break actions, tc, cva and traditions. all companies make rifles that can shoot bh209 with is one of the newest subs. you weigh the charges like real black 3f. but you don't have to clean right after shooting. using smokeless guncleaners.

I personally am not an fan of bh209, I use real black to triple 7 3f. those you can just use soap and water to clean.

[Maven]

Reload3006, They weren't designed to use all types of smokeless powder, only 2 or 3 of the medium fast types. As I'm not certain about which ones, I'll not name them.

[45r]

there is a section devoted to smokeless muzzleloaders on modernmuzzleloaders.com and the savage is on it a lot.you can use vitt-110,120,5744,4759,re-7 and others.you can use blackhorn 209 and any other sub.the savage is probably the stongest ML made,the NULA is very good also.you have to be very carefull not to double load them but when loaded right they can be very accurate and powerfull.they are still being made when demand becomes worth making them,savage makes good firearms and usually working hard to keep up with demand.If I got a opportunity to get one at a real good price I'll get one or a rem and maybe have it customized with a pac-nor 45 cal barrel.there are some getting sub MOA out to 250 yards with them.Smokeless ML's are on the cutting edge of what frontstuffers can do nowadays.But you do have to be very carefull,some have hurt themselves using them by probably double charges.I've read the factory has tested them to way over what others are and they held up.

[Reload3006]

The nice thing about muzzle loaders is you dont have to have a FFL to get one at least not federal some states require it. Missouri is not one of those states. I have read several articles in magazines and have read the horror stories too. I have not however ever talked personally to anyone who has owned one. So I am getting a lot of second hand information. The magazine article i read (cant remember which one) the guy said he was using Hodgdon Lil gun. ... I have not seen any published loads out there for LIL gun. and I have been loading since the mid sixties. so I know that i risk my life and limb if i venture out into unresearched territory. But as lots of you know IMR SR4759 is common to a lot of loads. So is H110 and others that i have read loads for. I suppose I should writhe Savage and ask them
1) are you still producing them
2) can I buy direct from you (I can find no local dealer)


Also for those posting Knight as an option Knight has been out of biz for about 3 years now.

[rockrat]

Actually, IIRC, the smokeless ML's, at least the MKI version, is now considered a firearm, as you could take the barrel off, add one chambered for a cartridge, change bolt head and firing pin and have a center fire rifle. the MLII's, IIRC, were changed so you could not do this.

It may be now, that the ones that use a 209 primer are considered firearms, and must go thru an FFL. I sold an NEF Huntsman, that used the 209 primers, and on the box was printed that it is considered a firearm and must go thru an FFL.

My little brother had a MLI and used, IIRC, 4227 or 5744, as that is what was in the owners manual.

[45r]

The nice thing about muzzle loaders is you dont have to have a FFL to get one at least not federal some states require it. Missouri is not one of those states. I have read several articles in magazines and have read the horror stories too. I have not however ever talked personally to anyone who has owned one. So I am getting a lot of second hand information. The magazine article i read (cant remember which one) the guy said he was using Hodgdon Lil gun. ... I have not seen any published loads out there for LIL gun. and I have been loading since the mid sixties. so I know that i risk my life and limb if i venture out into unresearched territory. But as lots of you know IMR SR4759 is common to a lot of loads. So is H110 and others that i have read loads for. I suppose I should writhe Savage and ask them
1) are you still producing them
2) can I buy direct from you (I can find no local dealer)


Also for those posting Knight as an option Knight has been out of biz for about 3 years now.

natchez has them and some are on gunbroker.

[10 ga]

I have 2 Savage 50 cal MLIIs. Since i got them my use of smokey MLs for hunting has dropped to 0. Lots of major BS spewed out from people who don't know their head from a hole in the ground about SMLs. This isn't really the forum for learning about SMLing. I suggest you go over to Dougs Message Boards and see what they are really capeable of doing. Check the link to get there easily. 10 ga

http://dougsmessageboards.proboards.com/index.cgi

Savage isn't the only SML available. Check out Bad Bull, Swinglock and Smokeless Muzzleloading Inc. (SMI). Then there are the people who have SMLs that are custom built on CF action of their choice, kinda limited to single shot and bolt type guns but there are many out there.

Best to all. 10 ga

[451 Pete]

Reload,
Knight Rifle has been purchased by Modern Muzzleloading and several rifles under the Knight brand name are again available.

Savage had a loading sheet that came with the ML10 that gives loading information for the rifle. If you are inclined to buy one of these I think it would be wise to stick to the recommended loadings.
just my thoughts .... Pete