Paco's Accurizer

[GaryN]

I read a while back about Paco's accurizer tool. It sounded very promising. At the time, it sounded like people were having trouble getting a hold of him. So I let it slip and I forgot about it. I'm still interested. Does anyone know if he still sells them? Is he any easier to get a hold of? How well do they work at increasing the accuracy?

[Bardo]

Gunblast did a update in 2008. In that article he said Paco has a new website as of August of this year. Dont know if that helps. Here is the article and website.

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco2.htm

http://www.pacotools.com/

[Larry Gibson]

I've a 2 hole Paco tool I got from him in '05. I also use the Waltz die. Don't know about how quickly either of them are to get these days.....

The Paco does a good job but I gave up on using a mallet as my wacking consistency wasn't to be bragged about. I use and old Craftsman drill press stand (sans the hand drill) as an arbor press with it. The press has stop adjustments so repeatability and consistency of the swaged .22LR ammo is excellent.

Accuracy most often is improved with the cheaper makes of .22LR as the swaging gives them a consistent "fit" to the chamber/throat/groove depth of the barrel. With the better "match" variety .22LR accuracy is not improved as it's probably as good as it will get out of the box. The "swaging" of the cheaper stuff just adds some quality control that is already prevalent in the match ammo.

However, the swaging of even the match .22LR into a "nasty Nose" dramatically increases the terminal effect of that ammo. A NN + a HP makes Blaser ammo very terminally effective + more accurate. I swage and re HP the bulk Federal, Winchester and Remington ammuntion as that also increases the terminal effect and makes it more accurate. You have to test each type of .22LR ammuntion with varying and increasing amounts of swaging and nose alteration to determine how much to do. You can swage and alter the nose too much and destroy accuracy and feeding reliability, especially in autos and mag fed guns. Each type will take only so much before accuracy goes south....really fast.

Photo shows some .22LRs swaged ready to test.

Larry Gibson

[GaryN]

"I use and old Craftsman drill press stand (sans the hand drill) as an arbor press with it. The press has stop adjustments so repeatability and consistency of the swaged .22LR ammo is excellent. "


Good idea.

[Olevern]

I wonder if this ammo modification would help accuracy in the Ruger single six, which has an oversize bore as a compromise between the L.R. and mag. rounds?

[Larry Gibson]

I wonder if this ammo modification would help accuracy in the Ruger single six, which has an oversize bore as a compromise between the L.R. and mag. rounds?

I swage/mocify .22LR to a SWC (almost like a Keith SWC) HP for use in my .22LR revovler (not a Ruger) and they shoot more accurately and terminal ballistics are greatly improved. A friend(?) with a Ruger single six kyped a handfull on our last squirrel hunt to use and now he wants me to swage more for him. Just cant trust them Ruger owners........oops, I am a Ruger owner several times over......[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

[Olevern]

I swage/mocify .22LR to a SWC (almost like a Keith SWC) HP for use in my .22LR revovler (not a Ruger) and they shoot more accurately and terminal ballistics are greatly improved. A friend(?) with a Ruger single six kyped a handfull on our last squirrel hunt to use and now he wants me to swage more for him. Just cant trust them Ruger owners........oops, I am a Ruger owner several times over......[smilie=l:

Larry Gibson

Larry,
Is that with the Paco accurizer?

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
Is that with the Paco accurizer?

I can do it with the Waltz die but I prefer the form the SWC shape with the Paco tool using the Nasty Nose punch and then form the HP with the HP punch.

Larry Gibson

[Naphtali]

I read a while back about Paco's accurizer tool. It sounded very promising. At the time, it sounded like people were having trouble getting a hold of him. So I let it slip and I forgot about it. I'm still interested. Does anyone know if he still sells them? Is he any easier to get a hold of? How well do they work at increasing the accuracy?
Were you unable to obtain this "bump" tool, Hahn's die set is the most useful - and expensive - bump tool on the market. And reshaping and regularizing 22 RF bullet noses with it achieves dramatic improvements in accuracy. And if you configure as LFN/wadcutter, killing power increases dramatically.

Hope this helps.

[shooterg]

So where do you find these Hahn's dies ?

[Reload3006]

there was a fellow on a different site that made a set of those reform tools. Has anyone shot any targets and did a side by side comparison of results with unaltered and altered ammo?

[Larry Gibson]

I haven't save a lot of targets but here is an example;

Test rifle is the Remington M504
Range is 50 yards
1st target: Blaser .22LR out of the box; 10 shots
2nd target: Balser (same box) .22LRPaco tool swaged with Nasty Nose punch at "3V" setting on press

I have fine tuned this so my swaged Blaser .22LRs now run .5 - .75" for 10 shot groups.

Larry Gibson

[Dale53]

I had a friend with a lathe make me a "Hanned" tool (Hanned was out of business) that allowed me to file the nose off leaving a Round Flat design. Bulk .22's did shoot better with Blazer being the best of the bunch.

Further, the flat nose worked exactly like a WFN or WLN LBT bullet does in a handgun. You could hear the "Plop" as the bullet hit the squirrel. Commercial hollow points damage too much meat (I typically go for head shots but squirrels sometimes hide their heads and the only shot available is a body shot). At any rate, a round nose .22 through the slats will often lose you that squirrel (he runs off to die and often is unrecoverable). With the Hanned tool, the stopping power is great without damaging too much meat.

I later bought a Paco tool set as it is easier (and faster) to use. Use of a drill press or an arbor press that allows consistent performance is the key.

At any rate, these tools DO work as advertised.

FWIW
Dale53

[shooterg]

Dale, my old Nana would cringe at those head shot squirrels . She wanted 'em shot in the neck, 'cause she loved squirrel brains - me , I never warmed up to pork or squirrel brains !

I've seen promising results from a friend's Waltz dies - might haveta have me one of these things to play with. Maybe somebody here like BT might look into making a similar product ?

[Dale53]

shooterg;
I grew up on a farm. Squirrels were plentiful. The circles I ran it considered it almost sacrilegious to shoot a squirrel with a shotgun. Head shots demonstrated the rifleman's ability (braggin' rights, doncha know:mrgreen:). However, if a squirrel didn't expose his head then I was not about to pass up a good body shot. Hollow points certainly worked on body shots but tore up too much meat.

In my later squirrel hunting years, I used a modern Marlin lever action in 25/20. I used Lyman's 257420 gas check flat nosed bullet. It worked best of all.

However, I would NOT hesitate for an instant when declaring that a modified flat nosed .22 rim fire would do the job best of the rim fire .22's.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I will also state that a cast bullet (flat nosed Lyman 225415 loaded at speeds of 1200-1400 fps in a .22 Hornet, .221 Fireball (I have single shot rifles in both calibers) as well as the formerly highly popular .222 Remington and the present .223 will do an excellent job, as well.

Squirrel hunting with rifles is a superior sport, without a doubt!

I have never been a ball sport fan, but, rather, enjoyed outdoor sports like "Squirrels with rifles, Deer with handguns, and Quail with shotguns" now THOSE are SPORTS:mrgreen:. (of course, I can't forget the years I spent racing motorcycles, paddling canoes and kayaks, and wilderness back packing)...

Shooterg,
Brains of any kind on the plate do NOT interest me - I don't knock what someone else finds interesting, but just not for me.


Dale53

[JeffinNZ]

I made my own rimfire reforming tool similar to the Paco but to be honest, if all you want is a broad, flat nose then a really simple solution is to get an old rimfire barrel, lop of the chamber and cut to allow the nose of a cartridge to stick up through the top. A coarse file or pocket knife will then whack the nose off the bullet to form FN. You could benefit from hardening the 'chamber' to prevent wear from the file also.

[curator]

Jeff,

The Paco accurizer is more than a flat nose or hollow-point tool. It is designed with several "chambers" of different diameter (.222, .223, .224, & .225) There are four "punches" that for different bullet nose-shapes: hollow point, "nasty nose", flat point, and shallow dish. When forming these bullet noses, the bullet diameter is bumped up to the diameter of the chamber in which it is held. By forming bullets to specific diameters you can determine the exact diameter your particular rimfire rifle is most accurate with. Bullet weight is unchanged, hunting effectiveness is often improved and once you find the correct diameter for your gun, cheap ammo can shoot as good as high-priced match ammo.

[Larry Gibson]

The reshaping of the .22LR nose certainly makes it a more deadly killer but that is only half the equation. It's the swaging of the .22LR bullets to a uniform and consistent diameter The provides for a better "fit" to the barrel and generally, with the cheaper ammo like Blaser or the bulk stuf adds to a more connsitent and lessor shot to shot variation. The 2 groups above were fired without a change of the scope adjustments, poa was the bottom of the 1" diamond. Obviously the swaging of the .22LR Blasers to a consistent .225 not only improved accuracy but it had a decided effect on the velocity.

As mentioned the PACO can be had with 4 different sizes. Mine has 2 different sizes; .224 and .225. The Neil Waltz die swages to .225". The swaging is necessary for any improvement in accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[Dale53]

While I have the Paco tool (as well as a Hanned Precision clone) and I have noticed an improvement in accuracy, this tool will NOT make Eley 10X out of Blazer. It just simply is not so.

I have a variety of small bore match rifles, and nothing you can do will make bulk ammo into world class match ammo - that is simply "reaching".

Just so you know...

Dale53

[brotherdarrell]

I've used the paco tool (all 4 sizes) since getting it in June of this year. I shoot rock squirrels in local pecan orchards and was trying to maximize accuracy and lethality w/sub-sonic and also trying to get a single six to group instead of patterning. I used the ammo in a number a guns with different results.

ruger single six - no help, the bore measured .2255 and no mater what I did could'nt get under 3" groups at 25 yds. no longer own it.

stock ruger 10-22 - when bumped up to .225 w/nasti-nose got consistant sub - 1" groups at 50 yds. started at 1 1/4 to 1 1/2".

stock savage mkII bv - when bumped to .224 w/nasti-nose got consistant 1/2 - 5/8 groups at yds, started at " groups.

stock ruger mkIII target w/weaver scope set at 6x - 50 yd groups dropped from 1 1/2 down to 1 1/4 with ammo sized to .223 or .224. but then again I am no pistolero.

norinco em332 - sized to .223 there was little difference in accuracy.

cz 452 u-lux - no difference at all in accuracy.

cricket pistol - accuracy at 50 yds did not change, with scope got consistant 1" groups when I did my part.

One thing I noticed as far as accuracy goes - the tighter the bore the less sizing made a difference in accuracy. With the savage win. super - x gave patterns at 100 yds around 12 to 14" for 5 shots. After bumping up to .224 groups dropped to 2 - 3" at the same distance. Fed. lightening was the same. This same ammo in the cz and the em332 give sub 1" at 50 yds out of the box. Also fed and win where consistantly smaller in diam. out of the box.

The biggest difference I found was with performance on game. Using cci sub-sonic straight out of the box I would get pass throughs on adult rock squirrels, and the young hardly slowed the bullet. After the nasti-nose exits on the young were over and inch in diameter, and the bullets would not exit on the adults. I hit a half grown jack rabbit at 50 yds and it gave a shudder and just sort of tipped over after the shot with barely a twitch. I shot in the area of 200 plus squirrels from may to oct. When hit in the chest with the nasti-nose they were dead right now, very little twitching or moving.

In short, my experience this last year is that if you want better accuracy you might get it depending on the gun. If you want better performance it will definitly deliver.

brotherdarrell

[Naphtali]

So where do you find these Hahn's dies ?

I apologize to all. I miswrote, thinking of cartridge tubes for my Sharps.

The 22 RF bump tool die set I have is made by:

Neal B. Waltz
4105 Hyatt N. W.
Massillon, OH 44648


I do not believe he has a web site, and I do not remember his email address. He is a retired tool & die maker who makes these die sets in batches a couple of times per year. If he has inventory, he ships immediately. If he does not, you'll wait until the next batch.

I think I paid about $150.00 for a die set with four reshaping punches. The master die fits into a standard reloading press.

For more information I suggest doing a web search for his name. If that fails, drop me a line.

Hope this helps.

[Larry Gibson]

As brotherdarrell indicates you must match the sizing to the gun for accuracy, so what's new there? Also you must have a rifle/handgun capable of using the improvement in sizing. If your rifle or handgun is a sow's ear sizing the ammo will probably not make either into a slik purse.

Dale53 is also correct to a point. Sizing bulk .22LR ammunition will not turn that ammo into world class match ammo. It won't do it in my match rifles either. It may (with most decently made sporter rifles) make the bulk shoot as almost as well as top end match ammo in them. A lot depends on the quality of the rifle. In medium quality .22 sporter rifles it will make some of the bulk ammo, especially if weight sorted also, shoot as well as the top end match ammo. In low end .22LR rifles it is a **** shoot if any improvement in accuracy can be made by swaging vs out of the box ammo.

If you've a low end .22LR rifle or handgun don't expect accuracy miracles and it's probably not worth the expense of the tool. If you have a quality sporter or one that is accurate to begin with using quality .22LR ammo then it's probably worth the effort to improve accuracy and lethality with the tool. If you've a match rifle you can get decent low cost, low end match accuracy out of the cheaper ammuntion swaged .22LR for practice. Lots of difference in price between Blaser vs Eley, RWS or Wolf Match ammuntion. Just depends on what you want and the effort you want to put into it.

I use swaged .22LR ammunition to improve accuracy and lethality in all of my seriously used .22LR rifles and handguns for hunting/shooting squirrels and rabbits. Swaged to .225 copper coated bulk Fed/Win also is more accurate in the .223 upper with 12" twist using the M261 sub cal device. I use swaged and weight sorted Blasers in my match .22LR rifle for practice and informal matches. For serious matches which most often involve an entry fee I use match ammuntion out of the box of excellent quality. For plinking with my old single shot JC Higgens .22LR out of the box bulk ammunition works as well as anything.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Naphtali

That is also the "Waltz die" I mention. It also is an excellent tool.

Larry Gibson

[crabo]

The Paco does a good job but I gave up on using a mallet as my wacking consistency wasn't to be bragged about. I use and old Craftsman drill press stand (sans the hand drill) as an arbor press with it. The press has stop adjustments so repeatability and consistency of the swaged .22LR ammo is excellent.

Larry Gibson

1. Larry can you show us a picture of your drill press setup? I am wondering how you can make the setup accurately repeatable. I have stops on my drill press, but am having problems visualizing the repeatability of it.

2. Also what is your favorite nose profile for terminal effects on small game?

3. Am I correct that the Waltz die is for swaging only, and the Paco tool swages and reshapes the nose? The Waltz would be easy to set up and repeat, and the Paco is going to be harder to repeat the adjustment?

[brotherdarrell]

I gave up on the mallet method pretty quick. Went to harbor freight and got an arbor press for $25, went to the hardware store and got a replacement bolt(6mm?). Much more consistant.

As stated above this will not make match ammo from bulk. In my cz winchester sub-sonic would be much more accurate than cci, except for the fliers. This tool will not get rid of fliers. And I would point out that each of my .22's still prefers certain brands of ammo even after going through the paco tool.

[/IMG]

[brotherdarrell]

try that again. not enough practice with photos.

brotherdarrell

[/IMG]

[Larry Gibson]

crabo

Larry can you show us a picture of your drill press setup? I am wondering how you can make the setup accurately repeatable. I have stops on my drill press, but am having problems visualizing the repeatability of it.

1st photo is of drill press. Once I lined up the Paco tool I traced around the bottom with a magic marker for repeatability of placing the tool.

2nd photo shows drill stops. I have marked th top one into quaters so I can give 1/4 adjustments. I've also marked the threads so I can traxk how many are used. When testing I mark the various settings as "NN - 1 1/4V". That means I used the nasty nose stem and adjusted the stop to 1 1/4 threads down from top mark. A "NN - 1 1/4V - HP -2 1/2V" means the same for the nasty nose but then I used the HP at 2 1/2 turns down on the stop. The stop is split so I use the top of the top one as reference and the bottom stop to lock it in place.

2. Also what is your favorite nose profile for terminal effects on small game?

On edible squirels, grouse and rabbits I use the Nasty Nose. On varmints I use the HP and open it as large as accuracy allows (You can swage and/or open the HP too much and destroy accuracy)

3. Am I correct that the Waltz die is for swaging only,

No, the Waltz swages but is limited to 1 size; .225" and it also with HP or flatten the nose with a Eley TeX dimple in the middle. It comes with the 2 punches.

and the Paco tool swages and reshapes the nose?


The Waltz would be easy to set up and repeat, and the Paco is going to be harder to repeat the adjustment?

Yes the Waltz is easier, espially in the Lee hand press, and more "portable". I can sit in my easy chair and do a couple thousand .22LRs while watching a movie. I track the adjustments by measuring the OAL from bottom of die to top of "seating stem" with a caliber. It is very repeatable that way. The drill press for the Paco tool is very repeatable the way I use it, not really hard at all. That set up requires a bench or table where the Waltz in the Lee hand press does not. Pro's and con's to both.

Larry Gibson

[brotherdarrell]

Ok, I give up. On the side of the arbor press is a lock collar for the handle. On the lock collar is a set screw. Replace the set screw with a longer bolt and use the screws on the side of the press as a stop for the longer bolt, thus being able to set a consistant depth. Will see if I can figure out this photo stuff. The pic explains very well.

brotherdarrell

[brotherdarrell]

try again

[GaryN]

Thanks Guys, this info has been a great help in deciding what to do.

[Larry Gibson]

Ok, I give up. On the side of the arbor press is a lock collar for the handle. On the lock collar is a set screw. Replace the set screw with a longer bolt and use the screws on the side of the press as a stop for the longer bolt, thus being able to set a consistant depth. Will see if I can figure out this photo stuff. The pic explains very well.

brotherdarrell

Obviously your press is quite different than mine. However, if there is a stop of sorts the principles are the same. Appears you've a solution.

Larry Gibson

[crabo]

SO Larry, if you were only going to buy one of the tools, which would you buy, Waltz or Paco's?

[crabo]

Check this one out

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/vbclassified.php?do=ad&id=32854

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=403074&highlight=waltz

[Larry Gibson]

SO Larry, if you were only going to buy one of the tools, which would you buy, Waltz or Paco's?

That is a very tough question. Every time I think I've the answer I think of the uses for the other tool. The difference between them to me are; the Waltz die is simpler to use, the Paco tool is the most versitile. Really hard to pick.........:-?

Larry Gibson

[USAF Shirt]

Larry,

I've have one of the phase 4 Paco tools, with all 3 forming rods for about 6 months. Are the forming rods with yours loose in the "die"? All 3 of mine are, and I can NEVER get a decently centered hollw point, dish nose, etc. when trying to form standard round nose ammo. I have tried several brands, and in all die diameters..The only good use for the tool so far is enlarging existing hollow point ammo, as the existing HP centers the forming rod for me. I would absolutely love to be able to make decently centered HP ammo out of bulk round nose. This is the whole reason I purchased the tool. To be honest, i am not real happy with it considering the price I paid. Do you have any tips/tricks? I guess I could shell out some more dough and have closer fitting pins machined, but i sure wish I didnt have to. Any thoughts?

[GaryN]

USAF Shirt: Not that you should have to do this to make it work but try some thin tape to fill up the gap.

[Larry Gibson]

USAF Shirt

Have to say that is the only "problem" I found with the Paco tool. I put a small steel shim around the forming rods to keep them centered. It stays in the die when changing rods.

Larry Gibson

[brotherdarrell]

I put a wrap of beagle tape at the end of my cupping rod. Having said that I use the nasti nose on existing h.p.'s for 99% of what I do.

brotherdarrell

[USAF Shirt]

Thanks guys! I thought I was the only one with loose forming rods. Never thought of shimming/beagle taping the rod. I will definitely give that a shot.