Ruger BH question

[336A]

I have a quick question for you experienced BH owners. I have a BH and at full lock up there is a very slight amount of rotational movement of the cylinder, is this common with Black Hawks? I don't think that it is a problem as the gun shoots great but I've never encountered this with any of my S&W either.

[white eagle]

yes that is common
and unless you can rattle like a baby rattle I would not give it a second thought
the gun shoot good....... no problems

[336A]

The cylinder does jiggle a minute amount if gently shaken from side to side on four of the six chambers. Not like a baby rattle though. Could this cause a timeing problem in the future?

[wellfedirishman]

How big is minute? My blackhawks and super blackhawks all have a small amount of left to right play when in lockup, under 1 mm (slightly more than 1/32nd of an inch). Nothing to worry about.

If you start seeing lead spitting from the side of the cylinder gap, then I'd get the timing fixed.

[336A]

Well I'm not sure exactly how to measure the movement but I'd say it is identicle to yours. The amount of movement is very very slight.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I've got a couple of Blackhawks and some K Frame Smiths. The BHs do have considerably more rotational play than the K Frames, but the cylinder diameter of the BHs is also larger. There needs to be some wiggle so the boolit can move the cylinder when it hits the forcing cone.

I consider the proof of a problem to be the target. If it shoots well, then well its not broke. If it doesn't shoot well, its probably me.

I did have a J Frame loosen up to the point it failed to fire a couple of times due to the hammer missing the primer. It had several primers indented on the edge of the primer. The boolits still found their way into the barrel without any apparent problem. That one did go back to Smith and they did a super job setting the barrel back, recutting the forcing cone, installing a new hand all for less than a $100. It was well used when I got it and I put high miles on it.

Upshot, I'll bet your BH has years ahead of it before it gets anywhere near loose enough to be an issue.

[MtGun44]

A bit of rotation is GOOD. Remember NO cylinder is ever exactly made exactly correctly,
there will be a slight bit of error in alignment between the cylinder and the barrel. As the
boolit exits the cylinder, it will be forced to line up with the barrel - and trying to move the
cylinder to line up with the barrel. If there is no slop at all (like Colt revolvers, unfortunately)
the hand or cylinder bolt takes a mighty whack at every shot.

Bill

[44man]

A bit of rotation is GOOD. Remember NO cylinder is ever exactly made exactly correctly,
there will be a slight bit of error in alignment between the cylinder and the barrel. As the
boolit exits the cylinder, it will be forced to line up with the barrel - and trying to move the
cylinder to line up with the barrel. If there is no slop at all (like Colt revolvers, unfortunately)
the hand or cylinder bolt takes a mighty whack at every shot.

Bill
This is exactly right!
Some play must be there for the best accuracy, reduced forcing cone and throat wear.

[336A]

Thanks a bunch for all the help help folk, and she shoots like a champ. This is a big load off my mind as iI thought I had a problem, thanks again for the help.

[mongo]

I had to go and check mine also, Yup , Just a little wiggle, LOL

[Lloyd Smale]

I had a vaquero that was shot with STIFF loads so often that it did shake like a rattle. Got the bug to have it fixed so off to clements it went for some rebuilding and custom work. Came back a beautiful case hardened gun. Thing is it shot better when it rattled. That been said my two most accurate handguns have absoulutely no movement in them. but then there custom guns and are lined up properly. Something like a ruger that isnt would benifit from a little slop. Only dissadvantage is in my experience loose guns tend to get looser if you shoot big loads.

[44man]

Lloyd, was that end shake?
I have used STP forever on the pin, front bushing and ratchets of my revolvers and never had any increase.
You can beat the cylinder locks by cocking fast and peening the notches. I can't see them wearing from just shooting.

[GARCIA]

Clean the cylinder notches good.
You would be amazed at the amount of junk that sits down in there.

Tom

[9.3X62AL]

When you stop to consider all that goes on during the firing cycle of a revolver, it's kind of amazing that the system works as well as it does.

My two most-fired 357 Magnum revolvers are very different platforms--a 4" S&W M-686 and a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk x 7.5". I estimate a round-count of at least 12K in the 686, most of these running 158 grain-class boolits at 1250-1300 FPS. The BisHawk has about 7.5K rounds through it, and "current SAAMI" ratings are the lightest loads it sees. Some of its work has been RIDICULOUS. Neither revolver shows a bit more end- or side-shake in their cylinders than when new. Believe me, I have ZERO complaints about the engineering or metallurgy on these fine handguns.

[pdawg_shooter]

A bit of rotation is GOOD. Remember NO cylinder is ever exactly made exactly correctly,
there will be a slight bit of error in alignment between the cylinder and the barrel. As the
boolit exits the cylinder, it will be forced to line up with the barrel - and trying to move the
cylinder to line up with the barrel. If there is no slop at all (like Colt revolvers, unfortunately)
the hand or cylinder bolt takes a mighty whack at every shot.

Bill

Well, they might take a mighty whack, but my 4" Python has just over 6000 full power reloads through it and it is still just as tight as when I bought it. It is also the most accurate revolver I have ever owned.

[W.R.Buchanan]

If you really need it to lockup tight they make oversized locking pawls available from Brownells, but they will wear in in about 50 rounds till they are just like the one you have.

All of them need some play to work right.

Randy

[pdawg_shooter]

The slop in the lockup is just a cover up for poor timing. If you are satisfied with it, no problem. A properly bored cylinder, so the chambers line up with the barrel, with correct timing does not require slop.

[44man]

The slop in the lockup is just a cover up for poor timing. If you are satisfied with it, no problem. A properly bored cylinder, so the chambers line up with the barrel, with correct timing does not require slop.
Too hard to do and maybe 1 in 1000 will be perfect.
Here is a line bored revolver with the cone and part of the rifling worn badly on one side. Lands were almost gone at that side.
Then the cylinder was worn oblong.

[pdawg_shooter]

If the cone and rifling were worn on on side and the cylinder was oblong, than they did NOT line up. Dont know who timed the gun after boring, but it was not done right. Properly bored and timed to where the chamber is in line with the barrel can not wear to one side.

[thegreatdane]

i had a similar experience with a Ruger GP100. I'm not 100% sure it was alignment or what, but it cracked on the lower right and moved down and out (until contacting the cylinder.

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c66/drobberson/Forum/IMAG0243.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have to interject here. This mysterious subject of "timing" and how it can just be redone by some skilled smith is just non sense.

The cylinder is timed to the frame by the position of the locking pawl which can't be moved and by the notches on the cylinder which can't be moved,,, at least very easily. Those notches are milled into the cylinder at the time of manufacture and are pretty much fixed in relation to the chambers. There can be errors. All of the features of the cylinder are timed to a Zero point. If the cylinder doesn't line up with something else it is becasue of alignment not timing.

The only way to retime a revolver is to recut the locking notches.. Nobody does this. You start over with a blank cylinder and line bore new chambers. You are not changing the timing, it is fixed at the cylinder.

Only the alignment is variable. Line boring is one way to correct this if it is very far off. But still in this option the locking notches dictate where the cylinder is located with respect to the frame and ultimately the barrrel. If the barrel is not located in the frame in the correct position then you've got problems that are going to be very difficult to fix. Best to start over with a different gun.

Loose locking notches, a few .000 either way provide some small amount of self alignment as the bullet bridges the gap between the cylinder and the barrel. a cylinder that allows .02-.030 of movemnet needs either an oversized pawl or a new cylinder or both. It doesn't need to be "re-timed" it needs to be "re-aligned"

The forcing cone acts as a funnel to make alignment happen easier, and allow for a small amount of misalignment IE manufacturing tolerances. . If a cylinder locks up with little or no movement then each chamber had better be perfectly aligned with the bore or it ain't gonna shoot right. It has nothing to do with timing.

"Tiiming" is a term which is misused alot. In mechanical things it has to do with "WHEN" things line up, not "HOW" they line up. "Alignment'' best describes "HOW" things line up.

Randy

[targetshootr]

I have to interject here. This mysterious subject of "timing" and how it can just be redone by some skilled smith is just non sense.Randy

Are you saying that the action in a gun cannot be improperly timed? I ask because I handed a single action to a well-known gunsmith once and he remarked that the action was perfectly timed.

[shooting on a shoestring]

A well timed or perfectly timed revolver will rotate its cylinder into alignment with the bore before the hammer will fall. I've had a J frame that would let the hammer fall before the cylinder was locked up in alignment with the bore. That was out of time.

WRB is correct. However its the common mis-use of a term. Its like folks here saying they worked up an accurate load. What they really mean is they worked up a load that exhibits precision, that is the ability to shoot small groups, be repeatable. Accuracy is a measure of the distance from the the point of aim to the point of impact, or how far from the bullseye the shot landed.

If the cylinder stops moving before the hammer falls, its timed perfectly. Timing doesn't address whether or not the chamber axis coincides with the bore axis. Semantics. Nomenclature. Slang.

Really though I'd rather be casting.

[targetshootr]

On one of my three-screw Rugers the bolt drops too soon leaving a 1/4" long turn ring ahead of the leedes. But it shoots so well that I don't mind it being "out of time".

[MtGun44]

Pythons are beautifully made, quality guns. I have a number of Colt revolvers (unfortunately,
not a Python amoung them) and like them, and have done some significant gunsmithing on a Police
Positive. IMO, there is a good reason that Colt doesn't make their DA revolvers any more. I don't
know if the Trooper series was different in design than the standard Colt DA design - which the
Police Positive, Police Positive Special, DS and Python used. These guns force the cylinder to be
rigidly held between the hand and the cyl bolt with zero rotational slop at the instant of hammer
drop when they are set up properly.

If the gun is made very closely to perfect, this works great. If there is any error on the
spacing between cylinders, location of the bolt notches in the cyl, or inconsistency in cyl
bore spacing, there will be very high forces applied to the hand when the boolit forces the
cylinder into alignment, which pushes back into the whole of the internal mechanism, basically.

I respect and like Colt revolvers, but facts are facts. The design is significantly less forgiving
of slight manufacturing tolerances. My guess is that most of the Pythons were made extremely
accurately and probably didn't suffer much from this design "inflexibility". I'm pretty sure that any
of these guns cannot be assembled from a box of parts and be expected to just work.
It is clear that they must be carefully hand fitted, and there are some critical locations which are literally
points, where if you remove .002" too much, you have to run around and readjust 4 other
parts to bring it back to where it will work properly.

Bill

[pdawg_shooter]

The above said is my point exactly. Properly made and properly assembled there is no need for cylinder slop. This is my 3rd Python and I have had 2 Trooper MK3s that all exhibited these traits. I would say maybe 75% of the Smiths I have had did also. Never had or sold to a customer a Ruger that did. You can make them, or you can make them well. I prefer ones that were made well.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Rather than belabor this discussion about different guns I'd like to move it for a moment to other mechinisms that rotate and index perfectly everytime. These would be the turrets on turret lathes, as they must repeat perfectly everytime or your parts don't come out right. We all know you can't have that.

All of these mechinisms rely on either a tapered pin that goes into a tapered hole or a tapered slot with some kind of wedge going into a tapered slot. Either one of these arraingements result in a lock up that is perfectly indexed everytime as there is no clearance to contend with. IE the postion of the turret and cutting tool is the same every time, referred to as,,,, repeatability.

Revolvers typically use a flat locking lug that goes into a parallel sided slot. This arraingement MUST have some clearance to function, and that clearance will result in"some" cylinder movement, which is a good thing if you can't get the chambers lined up perfectly. But if it is too worn then the chambers are never lined up. As long as the notches in the cylinder are in their correct position the chambers will be in the vacinity of the bore, and ideally coincident with the bore.

The timing portion of the mechinism comes when the locking pawl engages the slot. On Rugers the locking pawl is retracted from the notch as the hammer is withdrawn and immediately drops onto the OD of the cylinder and drags along the outside until the notch comes up and the pawl falls into it locking the cylinder in that position under spring pressure. There is not much to the timing aspect of these guns as the only point is the retract of thepawl and then the rest is controlled by spring pressure. Timing is essentially fixed.

I'm sure other guns operate somewhat differently but the basic function has got to be the same.

The only way I can see to remove all slop from the cylinder is to have a tapered locking pawl that indexes into a tapered slot. I think they do it the other way on purpose as it is very diffficult to get everything to line up perfectly on mass produced device. There is a reason why Pythons were $1100 in 1968 and Rugers are only $500 today.

Randy

[targetshootr]

On Rugers the locking pawl is retracted from the notch as the hammer is withdrawn and immediately drops onto the OD of the cylinder and drags along the outside

That applies to new model Ruger actions. On old models as well as Colt saa, the bolt drops into the leede or else it needs to be repaired if you hope to show it off at the next BBQ.

[pdawg_shooter]

The only way I can see to remove all slop from the cylinder is to have a tapered locking pawl that indexes into a tapered slot. I think they do it the other way on purpose as it is very diffficult to get everything to line up perfectly on mass produced device. There is a reason why Pythons were $1100 in 1968 and Rugers are only $500 today.

True, but you get what you pay for. A Hugo will get you you to the same place as a Caddy, but the trip is a lot nicer in the Caddy.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have a friend who has a virtually NIB Python he bought in about 1980. He said it has had maybe 50 rounds thru it. I offered him $1900 for it about a month ago. he refused.

I understand Cadillac perfectly.

They did make nice guns, but nobody could afford them nowadays. Although that point never seems to come up when they talk about 1911's that are $2500 and are production guns. I think they could make a Python and sell it for $2500?

Plenty of people buy those high end 1911's

Randy