Cast bullet results and sticking brass in Ruger SRH 454 Casull

[wellfedirishman]

Folks,

I picked up a used Ruger Super RedHawk in 454 Casull recently. It is a nice gun, very heavily built.

I loaded it up with 2 loads:

1) Lee 250 grain cast bullet tumble lubed with Alox/JPW, unsized as cast (nominally .452 diameter) + 12 grains Green Dot + Wolf SR primer. I showed chrony results of 1650 fps but I am not sure if that is accurate or not.

2) Lee 340 grain Hammer group buy mold (drops .460) lubed and sized to .454 + 12 grains Green Dot + Wolf SR primer. Chronys about 1250 fps.

I found I had to seat both bullets quite deep in the case (top of bullet about 1/8 th of an inch above the brass rim) to get it to seat properly in the Ruger 454 chamber. In hindsight, there may have been crud built up in the chamber from the previous owner shooting 45 LC that was causing the problem.

The first load shot as follows:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm138/wellfedirishman/RangeReports/RugerSRG454250grainLeeHammerbulletsized454with12gr GreenDot.jpg

And second load shot as follows:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm138/wellfedirishman/RangeReports/RugerSRG454340grainLeebulletwith12grGreenDot.jpg

Both were off sandbags at 25 yards.

The first load required a slight tap on the ejector rod with a wooden mallet to drop the brass. The second load requied significant force to get the brass out of the chamber, in fact more force than I was comfortable with.

I used previously-fired brass, slightly dirty but not excessively so.

Any ideas as to why the brass was so sticky? These loads are not particularly hot for a 454 Casull gun. There were no pressure signs on the primers (no flattened edges or punctured primers) that I could see.

Advice/solutions would be much appreciated.

[bedwards]

You need to start with clean chambers. I would brush them and get everything out then try again. If 45 colt was shot in them as you say, there is residue there. Mine leaves a mess when I do.
The SRH is a sweet shooter. You might want to go the extra step and put a scope on it. It will surprise you how accurate it can shoot.

be

[leadman]

I agree with checking the chambers for a hard carbon build up in the chambers. I have seen it hard enough in a 357 that fired alot of 38s to require the use of a tool to remove it as even stainless brushes would not get it out.

[44man]

Clean the chambers first, there is no reason to load boolits that deep in a SRH to chamber, pressures climb.
If the boolit is too fat to fit through the throats, size them or you will not chamber either. Make them .452" or to the best throat fit.
I have to ask why try for such velocity with G.D.? The pressure peak is starting in the brass, that expands the cylinder and it will tighten on the brass. Use slower powder.
The 250 gr is kind of light for cast in the .454. The gun will be more accurate with a heavier boolit, maybe 300 to 335 gr. The 340 gr should work but is too fat to chamber at .454".
I can assure you the SRH will do at least 1" at 50 yards.

[lbaize3]

+1 on 44man post. I use AA9 and have excellent results in my .454 using 270 grain cast boolits.

[wellfedirishman]

Thanks Guys, I appreciate the tips and input.

I have some W296 powder so will try that instead, along with sizing the 340 grain bullets to .452.

[DragoonDrake]

I have found my SRH shoots best with the lyman 325 and 25grs of 2400. I can tell you that it shoots well and on hot days your brass will stick a little (hot being 70*F+). I have a simmons 2-6x on it and I have had to send the first scope back because it would not hold a zero. After that I have been able to have 5 rounds touching with the sixth round about an inch off at 25 yrds off of bags. I know it is me because I have marked my cylinders and have made sure to rotate which is the last round.

[Guesser]

The first production run of the SRH 454 revolvers were recalled due to poor heat treating of the cylinder, the SS cylinder remained "elastic" and would expand/contract on firing and grip the cases too tight. Ruger replaced several of the cylinders in my circle of acquaintances. There was a write up on it in HandLoader Magazine back around Y2K, I don't remember exactly. I was loading Cast Performance 300 and 335 and 360 boolits for the 454 and we were having that problem when I saw the write up and Ruger took care of it. Maybe your used gun is one of them.

[Whitworth]

The first production run of the SRH 454 revolvers were recalled due to poor heat treating of the cylinder, the SS cylinder remained "elastic" and would expand/contract on firing and grip the cases too tight. Ruger replaced several of the cylinders in my circle of acquaintances. There was a write up on it in HandLoader Magazine back around Y2K, I don't remember exactly. I was loading Cast Performance 300 and 335 and 360 boolits for the 454 and we were having that problem when I saw the write up and Ruger took care of it. Maybe your used gun is one of them.

Actually, the sticking brass was a function of the machining on the cylinders (reverse taper) and not a result of expansion and contraction -- virtually all cylinders expand and retract when they are shot. The 465 Carpenter steel cylinders are amongst the strongest ever produced. The same machining issues plagued the .480 SHRs as well.

[Guesser]

OK, all I know is what I read and what the guns did before and after. Like I said, "what I read".
Covers an infinite number of internet possibilities.
And, the used gun could still be one of "them".

[Frank]

Try it with factory ammo. If it sticks, send it back to Ruger. Tell them you use factory ammo and it sticks brass. What if factory ammo doesn't stick? Then it is your loads! You are too hot or the brass you are using is junk.

[454PB]

Here's some good reading concerning the special SS used in the SRH .454. Notice they fired 300 proof rounds measured at 92,000 PSI.

http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=1608

In my SRH, I cannot chamber a round where the boolit is over .452" diameter.......the throats are too small.

[Snyd]

....I found I had to seat both bullets quite deep in the case (top of bullet about 1/8 th of an inch above the brass rim) to get it to seat properly in the Ruger 454 chamber....

Am I reading this right?.... that you seated the boolit so deep that only 1/8 inch of the boolit was sticking out of the brass?


If so, this would explain the sticky brass, you are probably WAY over pressure.

[stubshaft]

Good catch Snyd.

[44man]

Very true, then to combine Green Dot with it. :violin:

[wellfedirishman]

Thanks for the input, looks like some reworking of loads is in order. I hadn't considered the lower seating depth as a pressure issue due to the fairly large case volume. I have since scrubbed out all the chambers to remove old crud and will start from scratch with slower powders.

[35remington]

Any deep seating of a bullet in a straight case using a very fast powder like Green Dot will cause pressures to shoot up to the moon. Shotgun/pistol powders of this very fast speed react dramatically to changes in seating depth.

[Snyd]

Ya, try loading those 340's and your W296 using Hodgdon load data with a good crimp in the crimp groove. I'm shooting a 355 WFN sized to .452 over 27gr H110 (same as w296) for 1300ish fps out of my 4" Redhawk that has a 454 SRH cylinder. Cases drop out and I'm over book max for a 360gr Cast Performance but my boolit is a custom LBT that allows for more case capacity. I worked up slowly and ended up with enough H110 to fill the case to the base of the boolit, maybe slightly compressed. If I do my part I can shoot clover leaf 3 shot groups at 25yds with open sights and my 51 year old eyes. Your SRH is capable of out shooting most of us I'd say. Well... except maybe 44man :D Keep us posted!

ps, you should use SR mag primers with that 296. Not sure about those wolf SR.

[Snyd]

Very true, then to combine Green Dot with it. :violin:

Fortuneatly he's shooting 454 SRH that was proofed at 95000psi. Other wise we might be looking at something like this in this thread...

http://web.mac.com/perryschneider/pics/swBoom_01.jpg

http://web.mac.com/perryschneider/pics/swBoom_02.jpg

[stubshaft]

S&W Custom shop convertable model.:kidding:

[missionary5155]

Good morning
When I was a little feller dad brought home a S&W 38 Special that was "customised" to a 3 shot. His still had the top strap attached but peeled forward standing straight up at the barrel attachment. He was using Bullseye and the guess was maybe a triple charge ???.
Mike in Peru

[feets]

I'm shooting a 355 WFN sized to .452 over 27gr H110 (same as w296) for 1300ish fps out of my 4" Redhawk that has a 454 SRH cylinder. Cases drop out and I'm over book max for a 360gr Cast Performance but my boolit is a custom LBT that allows for more case capacity.

You are definitely over loading those cases. Hodgdon lists this info:
335 GR. CPB LFN GC H110 .452" 1.770"
start: 23.0 1321 22,200 CUP
max: 26.0 1531 41,600 CUP

You're living dangerously playing with H110 like that. When you start to compress H110 the pressures get stupid high very easily.

I just ran a bunch of 335 WLN over 24 gr of H110 last night.

[Snyd]

41600cup is the low end of the pressure curve for 454. I've shot lots of those loads, again, like I said, it's with a boolit from a custom LBT mould and I'm NOT compressing H110 as one normally thinks of a compressed load, maybe SLIGHTLY compressed as in the powder stays put. It's basically loaded to the base of the boolit. The "happy place" for H110/296, full case of powder, tight crimp and mag primer. Here's a pick of the boolit next to a CP 360, kind of hard to tell but you can see it does not protrude into the case as far as the cp. I have no flattened primers and the starline brass falls from the SRH cylinder that I have in my Redhawk. Excellent accuracy.

I went back and looked at my notes and actually in full length 454 Brass I've still got some case capacity. But, I've come up with what I call the "454 Snyd" where I've trimmed the 454 cases to half way between the length of 45 Colt and 454. This leaves me the same case capacity that 454 brass has with the 360gr CP boolit. I worked that up to 27gr H110 and it cycles in the Puma 454 levergun. A dual gun load. Here's the first report on that project and a pic of those guns.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=114117&highlight=454+snyd

http://web.mac.com/perryschneider/pics/45_bullets01.jpg

http://web.mac.com/perryschneider/pics/45_bullets02.jpg

http://web.mac.com/perryschneider/pics/454s_01.jpg

[freedom475]

Welcome the the world of SRH 454's[smilie=b:... You might have gotten mine:twisted::mrgreen:

It is sad to see the once great 454 Casul, now being listed with mouse phart loads as maximums. When I first started with the 454 I used the FA83, FA data, and FA 260g heavy jacketed bullets. This thing operates above 60,000 and was designed to shoot the 260grFA bullet at over 2000fps. My FA load was not max and shot right at 2006fps with there 260JFP....so that means that a cast at the same pressure would really be moving.

Then I bought the Ruger SRH 454...My first loads for it were very reduced and I still had to pound the shells out with a screwdriver and a hammer[smilie=b:

I asked the internet community and got the normal; elastic cylinder, tapered bored cylinder, and cleaning/carbon info,,,,and a lot of guys saying "mine shoots great and my load is running a full 1680fps [smilie=b:....

I hated to do it cause I had such high-hopes for the SRH, but I had to trade her back into circulation.

Good luck with yours;-)

[feets]

What I find interesting is that the makers of big power ammo such as CorBon and Buffalo Bore all run their 454 stuff around 1500 fps. Apparently, they think that's all it needs to get the job done.

[freedom475]

What I find interesting is that the makers of big power ammo such as CorBon and Buffalo Bore all run their 454 stuff around 1500 fps. Apparently, they think that's all it needs to get the job done.

The "job" they are getting done is not blowing up guns that should have never been chambered in the 454C...Like the 1892 Blackpowder cartridge design Winchester...yeah I had a Puma and it shot fine,,,but I kept my loads below 42,000...Not the 60,000 the Casul was designed for.

I think that what is so sad about the whole thing...My 44 load is a 265grGC Keith at 1500FPS. That is not what Dick Casull had in mind when he made the 454.

[44man]

Actually, the sticking brass was a function of the machining on the cylinders (reverse taper) and not a result of expansion and contraction -- virtually all cylinders expand and retract when they are shot. The 465 Carpenter steel cylinders are amongst the strongest ever produced. The same machining issues plagued the .480 SHRs as well.
This has been said but chambers are bored from the rear and cutters extracted from the rear. Unless reamers "wobble" there is no way to cut a reverse taper unless cut from the front and they need to be larger then the throats.
This is a story I do not believe. What makes more sense is the thin metal from making the guns six shots. The steel is super strong yet will expand more at different chamber points depending on where the highest pressure is. Can the highest pressure points take a "set"?
I defy anyone to cut a reverse taper with a straight reamer! Actually, most cartridges are larger at the rear and taper forward. That makes it even harder to cut a "reverse" taper unless the reamers are loose and out of control.
Not hardly! :holysheep

[Sturmcrow]

I'm reviving a slightly old thread, but at least it hasn't started to stink yet.

In terms of my book knowledge (no real-world experience in other words) the previous poster is correct that the cylinder walls would be expected to stretch farther for each shot if they are thinner. We were taught that though different steel alloys may have higher ultimate tensile strengths (261 ksi for the Carpenter steel vs. 30ksi for "normal" steel) they usually have the same modulus of elasticity. In other words, for the same amount of stress, they will all have the same amount of stretch (aka strain). The difference is that the stronger alloys can stretch farther without permanent deformation.

I hadn't thought of it that way before, but the walls on a SRH will probably stretch farther than a FA or Raging Bull, though they should not exhibit a permanent deformation.

Sidenote: It is entirely possible that these hard and fast rules do not apply to stainless steel, as civil engineers do not use SS very often. All we learned about was regular carbon steel. I would be very interested in learning if I am incorrect from someone with superior knowledge.

[Markbo]

Snyd are those NIL grips on that SRH?

[Whitworth]

This has been said but chambers are bored from the rear and cutters extracted from the rear. Unless reamers "wobble" there is no way to cut a reverse taper unless cut from the front and they need to be larger then the throats.
This is a story I do not believe. What makes more sense is the thin metal from making the guns six shots. The steel is super strong yet will expand more at different chamber points depending on where the highest pressure is. Can the highest pressure points take a "set"?
I defy anyone to cut a reverse taper with a straight reamer! Actually, most cartridges are larger at the rear and taper forward. That makes it even harder to cut a "reverse" taper unless the reamers are loose and out of control.
Not hardly! :holysheep

Just got off of the phone with Jack Huntington, and he has worked on numerous SRHs in both .454 and .480 -- as well as the rare 5-shot .480 and he said that there is swell (or oversized area) in the middle of the chamber as a result of accumulated tollerances. They use a multy-spindle wobble head to perform the chambering of all of the chambers at the same time -- if there is any discrepancy in sharpness of any cutting surfaces of the reamers (Ruger is notorious for loose fitting pilots and dulling reamers that don't dull uniformly), they will not cut precisely (or in a calculable manner). Plus, wobble heads are not that rigid, and apt to move in a manner they are not supposed to. Try to make a casting of a discrepant chamber and you will find that the casting won't come out because of the swell. Ruger had a devil of a time machining the 465 cylinders which is hard on their cutting tools.

[44man]

Just got off of the phone with Jack Huntington, and he has worked on numerous SRHs in both .454 and .480 -- as well as the rare 5-shot .480 and he said that there is swell (or oversized area) in the middle of the chamber as a result of accumulated tollerances. They use a multy-spindle wobble head to perform the chambering of all of the chambers at the same time -- if there is any discrepancy in sharpness of any cutting surfaces of the reamers (Ruger is notorious for loose fitting pilots and dulling reamers that don't dull uniformly), they will not cut precisely (or in a calculable manner). Plus, wobble heads are not that rigid, and apt to move in a manner they are not supposed to. Try to make a casting of a discrepant chamber and you will find that the casting won't come out because of the swell. Ruger had a devil of a time machining the 465 cylinders which is hard on their cutting tools.
That is what I said---WOBBLE where not wanted.

[Whitworth]

That is what I said---WOBBLE where not wanted.

Yes, which can cause a what? Oh yeah, a reverse taper.....

[44man]

Yes, which can cause a what? Oh yeah, a reverse taper.....
Or a LUMP in the middle! :bigsmyl2:

[Snyd]

Snyd are those NIL grips on that SRH?

Yes, Nil Griffe grips but it's a 45 Redhawk I converted to 454.

[jwp475]

Yes, which can cause a what? Oh yeah, a reverse taper.....



Whitworth is correct about the reverse taper causing the sticky extraction of the cases.

[jwp475]

You are definitely over loading those cases. Hodgdon lists this info:
335 GR. CPB LFN GC H110 .452" 1.770"
start: 23.0 1321 22,200 CUP
max: 26.0 1531 41,600 CUP

You're living dangerously playing with H110 like that. When you start to compress H110 the pressures get stupid high very easily.

I just ran a bunch of 335 WLN over 24 gr of H110 last night.



Actually H-110/296 is well behaved when compressed, where H-110,296 gets squirrely is with reduced loads and air space in the case

[tek4260]

You are definitely over loading those cases. Hodgdon lists this info:
335 GR. CPB LFN GC H110 .452" 1.770"
start: 23.0 1321 22,200 CUP
max: 26.0 1531 41,600 CUP

You're living dangerously playing with H110 like that. When you start to compress H110 the pressures get stupid high very easily.

I just ran a bunch of 335 WLN over 24 gr of H110 last night.


Wow those book loads are light. That is the the same weights I run in my 44 mag with 300gr cast.

Without fail, as I raise the charge closer to 100% density, the groups improve and the SD lowers. And I don't feel the least bit worried that I am overloading it.

[Lloyd Smale]

i had a 454 alaskan that was so bad i though it had a bulged chamber. 25 grains of 110 and a 300 and you had to pound out the brass. I shot heavier loads in 6 shot 45 colt rugers and brass about fell out. Never heard this but it makes sense.
Whitworth is correct about the reverse taper causing the sticky extraction of the cases.

[Guesser]

There was an article in Handloader Magazine about this back in '02 or there abouts, maybe later.