Sharps chamber too long, What next?

[stobey]

My reproduction Sharps model 1874's 45-70 chamber measures in at just short of 2.30". So, in reality, it is neither a 45-70 or a 45-90. I see my options as:

1. Forget it, it shoots OK as it is with 45-70 rounds

2. Rechamber to 45-90

3. Shorten 45-90 cases to match the chamber.

Does anyone see any other options?

If I shorten the 45-90 cases what about loads? I presently keep my loads at or under 20,000 cup.

Would appreciate suggestions or solutions

Thanks

Steve

[geargnasher]

Depending on the shape of the chamber, i.e. actual dimensions at the 2.3 inch mark, you can get 45/90 Winchester brass, or .45 Basic brass and trim it to fit your gun, which would then be a 45/80.

A picture of a chamber cast with accurate dimensions sketched out would help.

Gear

[Don McDowell]

I have an Italian made sharps with the same problem. Couldn't get the leading to stop until I by accident found out how long that chamber is.
So now I trim 45-90 brass back to 2.25 for greasegroove bullets.
I trim Norma basic back to the same length, but it is to thick at that point to let a greasegroove bullet chamber, but works great for paper patch.

In hindsight I wish I would of just reamed the chamber on out for the 2.4 and been done with it.

[Gtek]

Sorry for your luck. I would chamber cast before heading in any direction. Do not know how you measured but them things are real and easy to read. I cut a junk case down, flared, tap in and close action, cerosafe from muzzle straight up. I filled a 1885 Hi-Wall from back end one time, filled extractor area just a little. I hope you never have that much fun! Good luck with mental volleyball.
Gtek

[stobey]

At the moment I have some 45-90 brass and sizer comming and am leaning for the moment to shortening a few pieces of that brass and seeing what happens. I won't do anything with the rifle until after hunting season. It has brought down 5 deer, so it really isn't all that bad of a situation.

And by the way, I have experienced zero leading after a couple thousand rounds of cast boolits. Accuracy isn't really all that bad. So I am not panicking.

Thanks for the input and if anyone else has any input feel free to chime in.

Steve

[Arnie]

Cutting back 45/90 brass is the best bet for you. Most all rifles have too long of chambers because of Lawyers and law suits .Brass is made too short for the same reason.45/70 is supposed to be 2.100 long and the chamber also but you will never find 45/70 brass that long and always will find the rifles chambers longer .Mine is 2.118 long .I bought a machine that will stretch the 45/0 brass and then i trim them back to 2.118 or cut back 45/90 cases . Arnie

[shovel80]

If leading is a problem, You can always seat the bullet out with one grease groove showing if there is room in the lead, The Grease will fill in the chamber at that void....and lessen the leading...
Cutting down the 45-90 Brass is likely the best answer...

Terry

[Dan Cash]

There is a stock maker down south that makes a stretching tool that fits a FL sizing die. He specifies RCBS but I adapted my Redding. It cost about $45.00 and will make brass longer pretty quick. I will have to look at the die tomorrow to get the name.

[waksupi]

I had one like that. I seated the bullet out, until is was almost to interference. It shot well with contact, but a couple shots would create enough fouling, to make chambering a bit stiff. So I seated them a few thousandths deeper. Turned out to be a great shooter as a .45-70.

[TXGunNut]

I have a Pedretti & Sons Sharps that is marked 45-70 but I discovered it has a 45-90 chamber. Apparently a previous owner was in the same situation you are in now and had it rechambered. Appears to be good workmanship and a tight chamber. It shoots 45-70 OK but I have to size the brass more than I want to bring it back down to hold a boolit. I'm using 45-90 brass now, still looking for a load it likes but the potential is clearly there.
One quick trimming method would be to shorten a Lee case length gage made for the 45-90 but they don't seem to make it. A stretching die would be more cost-effective considering the higher price and spotty availability of 45-90 brass.

[montana_charlie]

I would chamber cast before heading in any direction.
I agree. There are a number of ways to get a feel for how deep a chamber is, but little details can make you believe something which is a little wrong.
A cast (or an impact impression) gives you a clear look at what is going on.

There is a stock maker down south that makes a stretching tool that fits a FL sizing die.
Tim's die-type stretcher will not lengthen a case as much as the Kal-Max which Rick Kalynuik and I designed. But, even ours won't do two tenths of an inch unless it is modified.

My choice in your situation would be to deepen the chamber.
Then you have the chance to tell the gunsmith to make sure the new chamber is exactly 2.4 inches deep. Most chambers are longer than specified, and most brass is shorter. That's why the Kal-Max was born ...

CM

[Char-Gar]

I hold the conviction if you need to modify something, modify the cheapest part. In this case it would be the brass case. Trim them cases.

[montana_charlie]

My view is that, if modifications are needed ... modifications that shouldn't be needed ... correct the major malfunction.

CM

[67bear]

If there is enough material at the breach end of the barrel, you could have the barrel set back and properly chambered to 45-70.

[John Taylor]

If there is enough material at the breach end of the barrel, you could have the barrel set back and properly chambered to 45-70.

Sounds like an easy fix but the sharps barrel going back .2" will not have much of the "tulip" or round portion of the barrel. Also the spring hanger on the bottom would need to be a custom one to hold the spring and rear forearm screw.. It is very easy to run a 45-90 reamer in the chamber to fix the problem. On some guns the barrel does not need to come off the action.

[montana_charlie]

Sounds like an easy fix but ...
I don't think 67bear has been around a Sharps enough to be aware of the configuration on the bottom of the barrel, and the shortness of the 'stub' which holds the threads.

By the time you pay a gunsmith to do all of that work ... and cut a new chamber ... you could nearly buy a new barrel.

I just saw a guy ask for a price on shortening his Sharps barrel.
Price to cut it off, cut a new dovetail for the front sight, and reblue ... $275.

Lee Shaver deepened my 45/70 chamber to 45/90 for a hundred bucks, a few years ago.

CM

[Don McDowell]

whether a person reams the chamber to 45-90 or just buys the 2.4 brass and shortens them up it's about 6 of one half dozen of the other.

[67bear]

Does anyone see any other options?

Would appreciate suggestions or solutions

Thanks

Steve

Sorry guys, I was just trying to offer another possible solution to stobey's problem. I didn't think I implied that it would be the easiest or least expensive thing to do, just an option if the barrel is large enough in diameter.

[John Taylor]

I don't think 67bear has been around a Sharps enough to be aware of the configuration on the bottom of the barrel, and the shortness of the 'stub' which holds the threads.

By the time you pay a gunsmith to do all of that work ... and cut a new chamber ... you could nearly buy a new barrel.

I just saw a guy ask for a price on shortening his Sharps barrel.
Price to cut it off, cut a new dovetail for the front sight, and reblue ... $275.

Lee Shaver deepened my 45/70 chamber to 45/90 for a hundred bucks, a few years ago.

CM

Boy I'm way behind the times. I would probably be charging $40 to cut and crown with a new dovetail, plus $25 to R&R the barrel. To run the chamber deeper for 45-90 would be $25 if I didn't need to remove the barrel. I don't do blue so that would run the price up.

[stobey]

I want to thank everyone for their input, it is truly appreciated!!

I got a true and accurate measurement for the length of the chamber up to the neck of the throat, that is the point where the chamber narrows down to reach the bore. It measure .062 less than the standard (depends on the standard you look at I realize) of 2.405. So this gun is essentially a 45-90 already.

I am sure that the brass comming in will only need slight trimming and I should be able to use publicised 45-90 loads.

Any comments?

Steve

[stobey]

By the way there is hardly any free bore at all. I didn't get a measurement for that, but there is essentially ZERO free bore.

Steve

[John Taylor]

Sounds like you need a throater reamer, try here http://4-dproducts.com/display.php?group=Throaters

[stobey]

I don't know how to use a throater reamer. How eady is it to use? I am fairly handy with tools

Steve

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[MGySgt]

I had Lee shaver rechamber my IAB from 45/70 to 45/90 duie to a long 45/70 chamber with a 11 deg taper. The bore is over size at .460 and I shoot .4615 boolits in it -

Danged accurate!

[stobey]

Thanks for the input. Today I trimmed some 45-90 brass back .062 from 2.400. Worked up a load with IMR 3031 and it really performed well. Mine is also an IAB that I had to replace all the parts in the lock mechanism. Then I stoned all the moving parts in the block.

A real PROJECT, but I have learned alot and really enjoy the rifle.

Steve

[MGySgt]

If you are using Star Line Brass - you might want to anneal them. My groups shrank considerably when I annealed mine.

[stobey]

Thanks I'll do that!

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[bigted]

so being generally dopey about this kinda stuff...i dont understand what happens. if a chamber ream is ground to be of the proper length and becouse we are taliking about a rimmed cartridge....then how ...if the ream is ground rite...can we get a chamber that from the shoulder of the rim is too long? if reamed too deep wouldnt the rim also be too deep along with the long chamber?

i guess a bit of education is needed. i dont see how this 'long' chamber is possible if the ream is ground correctly....or is the rim area cut with a different tool?

dont missunderstand...i also have a long chamber in my uberti sharps so im interested in this thread for personal reassons...just seems weird to me is all. im leaning toward the 45-90 chamber or junking the whole barrel and having it re-bored to 50 cal by 2.5 inch long.

[stobey]

You are correct that the rim area is cut in a different operation with a different tool. The reamer (in most cases) will go as deep as your extender will allow.

[montana_charlie]

i guess a bit of education is needed. i dont see how this 'long' chamber is possible
I can't state this as Gospel, but I think it's a CYA issue to the manufacturers.

We all understand that if you fire a bullet (especially a jacketed one) in a case that is too long you can severely increase chamber pressure.

We all know that the reloading manuals specify the 'trim to' length of any case they provide data for. Following that data prevents the situation above while compensating for case lengthening due to firing.

If a case neck is five or ten thousandths ... or even twenty thousandths ... less that chamber depth, who would ever notice? There is little 'bump up' potential in jacketed stuff, and the smokeless powder burn rates can even control that.

Because nobody wonders (at least I never have), those 30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag chambers may all be longer than SAMMI specs call for.

But shooting big lead bullets in straight walled cases will fill the end of the chamber with lead ... if the chamber is cut too long, or the case is too short.

We see that as a problem, but manufacturers want to make sure that we can't hurt ourselves. So, they cut the chamber ten thousandths deeper than spec.'d ... and the brass manufacturers sell cases that are a few thousandths short.

Once the case has been fired, it could be twenty-five thousandths shorter than the chamber cut in the rifle ... but the manufacturer has his CYA working in good shape.



On an entirely different note ... there are also sloppy gun builders.

CM

[bigted]

this corrects a bunch in my noodle. i guess i never considered that the chamber depth would be a different operation then the case rim. that removes all the wonderment for me...thanks fellers. still think ill prolly make my uberti a 45-90 at least for awhile and see if it shoots without the streaking i experience with it. then maybe ill go for the 50 2.5 chamber and bore...wanting to experience this one for awhile now and almost purchased a shiloh so chambered but the price on it was as much as ordering a new one just like the 45-70 shiloh i looked at a couple weeks ago. didnt think these rifles would INCREASE in value...maybe hold but to INCREASE??? ho hum .

again...thanks for the heads up on this quandry i bumped into.

[KCSO]

IAB I assume??? I have had to rechamber several of thse to 45-90 to get them shooting. I have seen them with chambers so long that 45-90 won't do the trick. No big deal to rechamber jst pop off the barrel, some are so loose you can do it by hand, rechamber and screw it back in, for the loose ones a roller mill to press in the breech helps.

[montana_charlie]

almost purchased a shiloh so chambered but the price on it was as much as ordering a new one just like the 45-70 shiloh i looked at a couple weeks ago. didnt think these rifles would INCREASE in value...maybe hold but to INCREASE???
I spent a week dickering with a Shiloh owner several years ago in an attempt to buy my first Sharps rifle. He had an asking price which was (to me) high-but-reasonable since he lived only an hour south of me, the rifle was an unfired 45/90, and it wasn't gussied up with a lot of high-priced 'options'.
But I needed to do a trade in order to afford it.

I offered my trade goods, and he accepted them as something he would deal on.
We did our offer and counter offer routine for a couple of cycles. We were down to fifty dollars apart ... and it was my turn.

After a couple of days to think about it, I emailed him to accept the deal as last stated. That's when he informed me that the price had gone up by a hundred bucks. I did a quick check at the Shiloh website and saw that their prices had bumped up to the next level.

From what I can detect, most of them think along the same lines when setting a price.

CM

[Don McDowell]

I've not seen a reamer that did not cut the rim recess at the same time as the rest of the chamber...
I believe the Italian guns use an extremely long chamber for one reason or the other. None of the American built guns, Marlin, Winchester , C Sharps or Shiloh I've ever used have that trouble, except the early CSA/Shilohs used a long freebore.

[stobey]

Well I trimmed the cases to 2.340. I could have trimmed to 2.35, but for safety I took a bit more off. On MGySGT's suggestion I annealed the cases. I have been shooting them this way for a couple of days now and all is going well. My groups may have closed up a bit. No fliers or anything of that nature. Lee 459-405 HB (386 gr) bullet and 45 gr IMR 3031.

I am really surprised how clean the brass comes out of the gun after firing. No powder or burn marks whatsoever!! Velocity is averaging 465 fps.

Thanks everyone!!

Steve

[MGySgt]

I sure hope that is a fat fingered typo - 465 FPS!!!! Kind of slow! :)

The clean brass after firing is due to you getting a good chamber seal.

Hope you enjoy shooting that one as much as I enjoy mine!

Drew

[stobey]

Ya, 465 is a bit slow. That should read 1564 fps.

MGySGT, thanks for the annealing suggestion! It appears to be working out nicely.

Steve

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