making tubing jackets.

[Reload3006]

Trying to get my act together on my Tubing jackets. I cut 3/8 OD copper tubing to length. 1 1/16 Run it through my round over die. No problems. I do about 20 of them I get ready to start drawing them down (making 30 Caliber) put in my .355 ring die and try to draw them down .. Pop the end through. Ok so I figure I need to Anneal. I fire up my torch and anneal them all then back at it get them all through the first draw. now they are all .355 on on to the second draw ... Pop right through the end. ***... ok anneal again and start to draw the .355s down to .303 I manage to get about 5 good jackets drawn out of 20 any ideas?

[blaser.306]

Possibly starting with a ring die and just drawing your tubing closer to the final diameter before cutting to length may be an option? I think that there was a thread about someone using a "cat" crawler as a power source for this kind of an operation!

[Reload3006]

Because of my punches and round over die it has to stay 3/8 until after round over.

[BT Sniper]

It sounds like you only have a tubbing jacket die fore the .375 (3/8") tubbing? Obviously 5/16" tubbing would be a heck of a lot easier to get to 30 cal.

I haven't tried drawing down 3/8" that far yet. I've thought it threw in my head a few times. I wonder if rather then a rounded tipped punch you use to push jacket threw the sizing die, a squared off punch might work better? That way instead of pushing threw the base maybe the sharp edges would "grab" onto the jacket enough to push it threw.

You also seem to have a pretty steep reduction going there with a .040 reduction. Any chance you have somthing halfway in between the .355 and .303?

Next thought I was thinking about was some custom punch to some how perfectly push the jacket threw the die frather then draw... not sure it would produce perfect results, but I haven't tried yet either????

BT

[Reload3006]

It sounds like you only have a tubbing jacket die fore the .375 (3/8") tubbing? Obviously 5/16" tubbing would be a heck of a lot easier to get to 30 cal.

I haven't tried drawing down 3/8" that far yet. I've thought it threw in my head a few times. I wonder if rather then a rounded tipped punch you use to push jacket threw the sizing die, a squared off punch might work better? That way instead of pushing threw the base maybe the sharp edges would "grab" onto the jacket enough to push it threw.

You also seem to have a pretty steep reduction going there with a .040 reduction. Any chance you have somthing halfway in between the .355 and .303?

Next thought I was thinking about was some custom punch to some how perfectly push the jacket threw the die frather then draw... not sure it would produce perfect results, but I haven't tried yet either????

BT

Yes I made my round over die 3/8 because 5/16 is almost imposable to find locally. I think that may be a moot issue as I am beginning to suspect that the copper tubing you get at Lowes Home depot is an inferior grade that just won't work reliably.

no I havn't tried anything else yet. I think I might get a smaller step. on the drawing but we will see. I am going to talk to some metallurgists here at Boeing and see what they think.

[MIBULLETS]

You might be able to do it with one anneal and smaller draws but annealing twice is the best method.

[phatman]

Hey Reload30/06,

Try an Autoparts store for smaller copper tubing.
I know they have 1/8ths because I bought some. They might have other sizes too.

Cheers, John

[Reload3006]

Hey Reload30/06,

Try an Autoparts store for smaller copper tubing.
I know they have 1/8ths because I bought some. They might have other sizes too.

Cheers, John

thanks for the tip .. I hope i dont have to go that route because I already have my dies made Im kind of stuck with 3/8 or make another die and punches. Its a lot of machine work I am hoping to avoid.

[mold maker]

Copper tubing made in the USA was virgin (soft) copper. The imported stuff sold today is recycled junk. and is much tougher to re-form.
You should have seen my plumber trying not to kink 5/8" copper gas lines around corners.

[Jammer Six]

Copper tubing made in the USA was virgin (soft) copper. The imported stuff sold today is recycled junk. and is much tougher to re-form.
Do you have a citation for this, or is it opinion?

[BT Sniper]

I ordered 5/16" on line. Must of got about 50' for about around $1 per foot shipped. Seems like in the end it will be less hard ship for you to make another set of dies for .3125 then to try and get 3/8" to 30 cal.

Good luck and keep at it.

BT

[scrapcan]

what drawing lube are you using?

[Reload3006]

same as my swaging lube 50% anhydrous Lanolin 50% Castor Oil

After talking to some metalurgists here at Boeing I am thinking that its the alloy I am going to go to a plumbing supplier and see if I can get some Hard Drawn Type L and see if that is more reliable. I think the alloy that Lowes has is just too soft and the extraction punch pushes the end out of it. Also when I draw it the draw punch punches the end out of it. Soooo we will see what that yields ... also thinking of trying Brass tubing too.

[BT Sniper]

When you say the "draw punch punches the end out of it" do you mean it "unfolds" the bottom of teh jacket or rips the bottom clean off?

BT

[Reload3006]

it rips the bottom clean off. I wouldn't worry about it if it just opened it a little as the next step is in the core seat die to flatten the bottom out.

[BT Sniper]

WOW! I would have thought it would just open it back up but all the way OFF! Well that is a problem. Did you have enough clearance between the diameter of your punch and the inside diameter of the sized 303 jacket?

[Reload3006]

I think I do. Ive got about .003 and I am thinking that may not be enough. I am going to take the PHD Metallurgists advice. and try the Hard copper first if that works Solved I will check it out this coming week. If not I will start fiddling with my punches. I have talked to several tool makers here at work and they all think that it should draw ok the way it is So we shall see LOL if it was easy women and children would be doing it LOL

[MIBULLETS]

I've used both the coiled soft tubing and the hard Type L. All around the harder tubing does work better, but I still need to anneal it before drawing it down. I would give it a try.

[MightyThor]

After reading all through this the one number I don't see is the tubing wall thickness after the first draw down. Looks like the punch to die space is .003, but are if the tube is .005 or what ever, it is going to have to move an awful lot of material to go through the die. Or did I read this all wrong?

As long as we are on the subject, I think I should insist on pictures. copper jacket making would be the next logical progression for this forum and there isn't a good reason why we should be deprived of your learning experience. I vote sticky, without having seen a single photo yet. (chanting) PICTURES PICTURES PICTURES

[MIBULLETS]

I agree, normally 3/8" OD type L tubing, sometimes called 1/4L is .030" thick, so the total clearance would need to be more than that between the die and punch, maybe .033" or more. In total the punch would need to be .066" less than the die. Unless of course you want to reduce the thickness.

Maybe you meant .003" clearance between the jacket on the punch and the die.

[Ervin]

I have a corbin 25 ACP jacket maker from over 30 years ago. It works great on the old copper shot gun primers. Those are long gone. Does anyone know of anything that would work with anything used today. Thanks, Ervin.

[Reload3006]

my draw punch is .24 o.d. draw die i.d. .3028 finished jacket od .303 so I made my draw punch .24 .303 - .06(.03x2)-.003

[MIBULLETS]

You are annealing after the end-rounding step right? I think you said you were. Is the sizing portion of your sizing die a very gradual transition and very smooth?

[Reload3006]

well its pretty abrupt I guess. smooth with a huge radius. don't know exactly what it is just came out while polishing ive tried to keep it around .2 wide so it will have a short contact area.

[MIBULLETS]

I am sure the angle is important, but I don't know what it should be, but I believe it should be gradual. At least that is what my Corbin jacket reducers look like.

I only take the 3/8" tubing down to .354" for use as .358 bullets but they push through about as hard as full length sizing a a piece of rifle brass to reload.

[GerryM]

Im reading your post . Even though i'm new here i have an idea it might be a few different things working together thats giving you the trouble. From what I have read un the posts so far it looks like one problem is your lube. Your lanolin mix might be too lean.
try 7 or 8 parts lanolin to your reducer. Theres special deep draw lubes on the market also. I have an address, Your wall thickness is quite a bit . maybe a longer draw die would be in order, punch size may also be critical
The back pressure your getting though tells me more lube'''' .375 to .354 should be easy.

[xfoxofshogo]

you can buy brass and copper tubing at the hobby shop and yes auto parts and some times wall mart

[Reload3006]

OK success. still had a few pop through but lots better. Gerry you da man. I think you are on to something with the lube. I didn't have any pure anhydrous Lanolin up here but I do have about a pound of it down at my farm I will have to mix up some draw lube. Any way Yesterday and then again today I had some free time to spend in my Man CAVE lol. its still soft tubing so I expect to have even better results when I get some hard tubing. I think there were a lot of things going on. First I think I needed better lube and use more of it. While I didnt have any jackets stick on my punches I did pop through the bottom of the jackets and had them stick in the draw die. I did stick a couple in my round over die but not too bad. LOTS AND LOTS OF LUBE. Ok another thing that is critical is cut square and to the same exact length. Also the most trouble i was having was I was putting too much pressure in the round over die and was micro cracking the tubing at the bend radius. So i backed off on that till I had just closed the end enough for my extraction pin to catch it and push it out. got them all rolled over then I started Drawing them I did not anneal until after the first draw. I ran them all through the first step down to .350 washed them all up in dish soap and rinsed them then into MEK to get any oil off of them and started annealing them red hot quench in cold water. Then through the .303 draw die. lost about 15 out of 100 I consider that pretty good as I had a lot of them with too much pressure on the round over. so got them all drawn and then into the core seat die and flattened the ends ... Another bath in MEK and core seat time. I have some pretty sweet looking 8s 180gr open tips to shoot now. I know they will not be as accurate as J4 jackets but should do ok for hunting.
I will get some pics a little later again Thanks every one I believe im on the right track now.

[DukeInFlorida]

If you are spraying your lanolin lube onto the raw material, please note that it's really best to allow it to dry before swaging. I am using some home made spray on lanolin based lube for full length resizing, and found that if I didn't allow it to dry, the alcohol carrier was acting as a hydraulic fluid, causing stuck cases and grease dents in the neck. As soon as I allowed it all to dry, life was good again.

For swaging, rather than spraying the raw materials with lube, I mix up a different batch of lanolin. I mix one part Militec-1 gun oil (the best synthetic oil there is) with four parts of lanolin. Apply with fingers, and it's sweet. Works even better than the sample of lanolin/olive oil that came with my 1 step die. A little goes a LONG way.

[Reload3006]

Ok here comes some step by step results views.
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/steponecuttubing.jpg
step one cut the tubing and square it to exact length and remove the burr
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/step2roundover.jpg
step two run it through the round over die. LUBE THE HECK OUT OF IT.
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/stepdrawto350ODthenanneal.jpg
step 3 run it through the first draw die. Draw to .350 and then Anneal
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/step4drawto303for30caliber.jpg
step 4 anneal it then step 5 run through the .303 od die. and step six using your core seat die flatten the end.
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/step5flattentheend.jpg
just another view of the 308 jacket.
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/procedeasnormaltomakebullets.jpg
just proceed as normal to make your bullets Core seat point form.
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/188GRopentip8s.jpg
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/endview.jpg
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/messupiturnedintoa30-30bullet.jpg
this is a result of a mess up. I put too much pressure core seating and snapped the jacket .. So I figured why not a 30-30 bullet. LOL
http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee403/reload3006/30-30differentview.jpg

[MIBULLETS]

The process you are using is the same as mine. Some observations, after end rounding, it looks like there is a lip or a sharp corner where the end starts rounding over. It also looks like this gets worse as you size the jacket down. On mine that area is radiused. Maybe that is causing more friction when you size them down.

How much longer are you cutting the tubing compared to the length of your end rounding punch?

[Reload3006]

I give my self .015 clearance so the length of the jacket or cut tube is radius .1875 + .015 shorter than the cut jacket. measured from step on punch to end of punch. I know there are still a lot of issues to iorn out yet but they aren't in the dies I am sure now its in the prep work on the copper. I need a way to more accurately cut the tubing and then square it up so that the ends of the tub are more square to the axis of the ID the OD is being pressed into place but you still need to hold the ends concentric at least that is my theory. I intend to prove that out. Still Think I need to use harder copper. I know no matter what I so with tubing its not going to make a bench rest quality projectile but should do nicely for hunting. There is no doubt its already in minuet of critter.
As far as my reasons for going 3/8 instead of 5/16 were two fold first 5/16 is only available from major plumbing HVAC suppliers. not that many of them around. I am not far from retiring so I will be living a long way away from a city. So I wanted to make my dies so that they would handle readily available supplies. 3/8 OD tubing is every where Soft coiled not Ideal but works. Number 2 I also shoot ans swage a lot of 9mm and 38 cal 3/8 tubing works great for that So all I need to make those two bullets is the core seat punch no problem I will make one and that is why my first draw is for a .355 jacket. So basically I can make any bullet i want from .375 down just by adding a draw die and punch.

[Reload3006]

Oh yea Duke I dont spray on my lube never have I mix 50% lanolin 50% castor oil apply it with my fingers or roll the jackets on a case lube pad.
I am going to follow Gerrys advise and make some draw lube a little more on the lanolin side and less castor oil.

[GerryM]

Glad I could help. Caster is ok too but not quite as good I have swaged bullet with plain caster oil / Ok but not really the best.
Here is something that also might help STP the racers edge Some pro bullet swagers use it . Heres another for swaging bullets Wipe out brand of sizing lube. Some have also gone to that. I have heard mixed results with the sizing lube . Both are very very slick lubes.
Keep up the good work those bullets are looking better all of the time.
There are also professional drawing lubes that are used in the deep drawing process.
They are not really expensive when you figure out how long the lubes will last.
Keep us posted as results good going '''

[MIBULLETS]

Reload3006, it sounds like you put a lot of thought into the size of your dies, I think it is an excellent plan. I have found the same thing with tubing sizes. 3/8" is by far the easiest to find locally. If you don't mind buying online you can find most anything, but I like to buy mine local. Thank you for sharing and good luck!

On the lubes, I just use Corbin's formula. I would stay with a lanolin based lube though. It is one of the best high pressure lubes out there. I know Richard Corbin sells both swaging lube and a draw lube. I believe the draw lube is actually thinner that a standard swage lube, This way it can be used in a lube machine to somewhat automate jacket drawing.

[MightyThor]

Sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky sticky

[BT Sniper]

3006,

Your close! Can you get the jacket to close up a bit more in the first step? Then when you flatten the base are you doing so with a core in place?

Here is a look at what I was able to acomplish a while back with 1/4 copper and .257 bullets. Turns out I did make a good looking 30 cal bullet from 5/16th tubbing. I'll have to get a pic of it up soon.

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/257coppertubejacket011.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1050432.jpg

http://i636.photobucket.com/albums/uu87/BTSniper/P1050448-1.jpg

[GerryM]

Did any of you think abour a point closure die?
I think it would help the bullets fly a little better. I have one made by pindell that is pretty simple.
Basicly it a sizing die with a knock out punch on top. The punch has a cone in the top. that closes up the point. It just changes the very tip or meplat of the bullet.

[MIBULLETS]

I have thought about it and tried different meplat sizes. If the bullets are meant for paper that makes good sense, but usually tubing bullets are meant for hunting. Since the jacket is so thick at the tip, the opening needs to be open more than normal to get good consistant expansion. I have tested this. My tubing is .030" thick, so even completely tight I still have a .060" tip. If the point is closed too much they act almost like a full metal jacketed bullet. My best results have come from a bullet with exposed lead at the tip. This way you can have the opening of the jacket wide enough for good expansion, but also have a more aerodynamic shape.

[Reload3006]

I have a lead tipping die. so it would help I know but at this point I need to make shorter Jackets. and to do that I am going to have to make another punch to be used with my round over die. or I could make a Pinch trim die and I do intend to make one in the future but not yet. and besides it seems like a waste to me to use more copper tubing than I have to we all know copper isn't getting cheaper. LOL but I do hope it does. My shortest punch is for a tube cut to 1 1/16 and that makes a open tip 180gr bullet. I going to have to get at least an eighth inch shorter. That will let the lead extrude through the tip and give me something to clean up. Still though I want to make a jacket scoring die to make sure these thick jackets will open up like they are supposed to.

[MIBULLETS]

What cartridge will you be shooting these in? Mine are 35 caliber and I am shooting them in a .358 Win. So with a 225 gr bullet I can only get them moving about 2400 fps. Even with the slow velocity, if the tip is right they open up with the perfect mushroom shape. You may not need to score them. Only one way to find out. Shoot them into something and recover them. We love looking at pictures of smashed up bullets!

[MightyThor]

Question about the fold over pictures. It almost looks like there might be just a tad too much material and that you are getting a little bulge at the base of the jacket when you go to completely close the base. This could just be shadows and coloration of the copper after annealing so I don't know, but I looks great and I know what I want to do next.

[Reload3006]

I think there are and were a lot of issues on the round over. first and I think most importantly I was not cutting the ends square. I am addressing that issue now. I have an old forester case trimmer that I intend to modify so I can cut the tubing straight and square to the Id of the tubing. Secondly Those jackets were made with Soft coiled copper tubing. After Santa Claus gets done with me and I recover a little I intend to go to NSC supply in Down Town St. Louis and get some hard drawn Type L tubing. The fold and the base of the bullet looks a lot better in person LOL than in the picture. and they look much better shined up. I do intend to shoot some of them the first opportunity I have but that will probably be after the holidays some time. You are correct I need to see how they do before making a bunch of un-needed tooling. I will be shooting them from an 06 and the flat nosed stuff from a 30-30

[taminsong]

Reload3006, any updates sir?

How does it shoot?

[Reload3006]

I haven't gotten around to that yet. Been Very busy. I am in the process of making a pinch trim die to uniform the jackets better.