SSK Handcannons

[Tar Heel]

Does anyone want to offer an opinion as to why, during load development of the 411-JDJ the cases which started sooty at the low end of propellant charges (did not obturate), then obturated properly in the mid-high range, and then for some reason at a max load, got so sooty you could not see the brass?

It was almost as though the cases were "floated" in the chamber at 47.0 grains. I would love to hear some opinion about this! Take a look at the picture.
40-42 grains....sooty
43-45 grains....clean and shiny except for the neck (normal)
47 grains....WOW.

[bearcove]

Powder? bullet?

[Tar Heel]

Powder? bullet?

H322 with a Harrison Bullet Works 210gr JSP

[44man]

Simple! The powder is slow for a short barrel and develops pressure farther down the bore. You reach the point with too much powder that some is burned out front instead of in the barrel. That can reduce overall pressure and go past efficient.
Your brass is springing back from the chamber walls before all the powder is burned.

[Glen]

Looking at your velocity data (and based on my experience with the .444 Marlin in the TC), I would say that H322 is too slow of a powder for optimum results with a bullet as light as 210 grains. In the .444 Marlin, H322 comes into its own when bullet weight gets up to 300 grains and above. For lighter bullets, I have gotten better results with 4198.

[Tar Heel]

Looking at your velocity data (and based on my experience with the .444 Marlin in the TC), I would say that H322 is too slow of a powder for optimum results with a bullet as light as 210 grains. In the .444 Marlin, H322 comes into its own when bullet weight gets up to 300 grains and above. For lighter bullets, I have gotten better results with 4198.

Thanks Glen. H322 sort of comes in at the 58'th percentile and 4198 should be a tad faster for the 14" bbl at about the 50'th percentile for rate of burn. I was allowing for the slight bottle-neck of the 411 but apparently, it had no effect on chamber pressure.

[stubshaft]

Simple! The powder is slow for a short barrel and develops pressure farther down the bore. You reach the point with too much powder that some is burned out front instead of in the barrel. That can reduce overall pressure and go past efficient.
Your brass is springing back from the chamber walls before all the powder is burned.

Excellent explanation.

[Tar Heel]

OK..enough 200gr stuff in the 411-JDJ. After reading about Tom at Accurate Molds in these threads, I decided to contact him regarding possibilities for bullets in the 375-JDJ and the 411-JDJ. I had ordered a mold several days ago for the 375-JDJ and was perusing some of his other molds which should throw a 350gr+ bullet out of the 411-JDJ. We had some discussions about this and I eventually send him the actual chamber dimensions from a chamber cast I made. Tom took an inordinate amount of his time explaining to me the need to "bore ride" with rifle bullets of certain designs, the benefits of this and that and that the bullet I had selected may not be the best bullet for the 411-JDJ. He then pointed me to a new bullet he had designed based on my chamber measurements. All this on a Sunday!

Of course I ordered the bullet mold from this marketing genius. Either that or he is simply just a real nice guy....Either way, I am still waiting for a reply I sent to another mold manufacturer over a week ago. Looks like I'm done with the competition and will be sticking with Tom at Accurate Molds.

Here is a view of the bullet he worked up for the 411-JDJ. Bear in mind this is for a SSK made 411-JDJ, not one chambered by another manufacturer or gunsmith.

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=41-340J-D.png

Now I just need to find a chap named Blammer to get some gas checks ordered.

[Tar Heel]

Blammer was located. 41 Cal gas checks on order. 375 and 411 molds are on order. Brass is cleaned, deprimed and ready. Load data has been reviewed. Lubra-sizer is charged. Sure makes me feel like a kid waiting for Christmas!

[Tar Heel]

Still waiting.......:shock:

[Tar Heel]

WAHOO....375-JDJ bullet mold is here! 411-JDJ mold in process.

[redneckdan]

Just wonderin here, what is the advantage of a 411 JDJ over a 444 marlin? Don't seem to be able to head space off the shoulder, bigger bullet would get a higher velocity for the same weight. just wonderin.

[Tar Heel]

Just wonderin here, what is the advantage of a 411 JDJ over a 444 marlin? Don't seem to be able to head space off the shoulder, bigger bullet would get a higher velocity for the same weight. just wonderin.


In a nutshell - range and bullet type. The 411 can utilize the lighter 200gr bullets (higher velocity) and get a little more range. With a 290gr, I've whacked deer at 200 yards. As a hardcore handgun hunter, the 411 offers a tad more in bullet selection and versatility than the 444 marlin does. Remember that this caliber came out for the T/C Contender BEFORE the newer Contender G2 receiver. The newer receiver can handle almost anything a rifle can - not so with the legacy receivers. If a handgun hunter wanted something bigger, we used the 45-70 barrel on the T/C frame.

This was intended as a handgun cartridge for the T/C - not as a rifle cartridge. I don't know if you know or knew that so I figured I'd throw that out there for the reader. That is why I had underlined "handgun hunter" above. There is also a 41 caliber following if you don't know that. The 41 Magnum, an often overlooked magnum in lieu of the 44 magnum, has a staunch following. Same with the 10mm auto cartridge. Some of us cringed when the 40 short & weak (S&W) "replaced" the 10mm Auto in popularity. When newbies shoot my 10mm Delta their eyes get as big as saucers.

Same with the 411-JDJ. This cartridge packs a wallop in a 14" JDJ barrel. Loaded with heavy weight bullets (290-320gr), It can take almost anything in North America at respectable ranges. With lighter bullets, 160-220gr, I've hunted whistle pigs to white tail deer. Wild boar rate the 295gr+ bullets. It is extremely versatile and frankly appeals to the 41 caliber freaks - like me.

[Tar Heel]

And then this morning I got to thinking....it was 25 years ago......I had a 41 Magnum TC barrel and then I heard of the SSK Handcannons. I was (and am) a 41 fan so I ordered a 411 to extend the reach and scope of the 41 Magnum. I never even thought of the 444 since if I had wanted a 444, I would have bought a rifle.

And then.....ultimately....because we can - and it's something to do on a weekend. I can't really say there is an advantage of one over the other. Have a great weekend!

[Groo]

Gtoo here
I also have a 411 JDJ, mine is a 10 in with a super break.....
For a good bullet go to Penn and get the heavy 41 SSK bullet..
JD said that it was originally for the 411 and made to fit a 41 mag ,, I have the mold,
Also for those not familar with the old contender frame ,,, JD designed the
JDJ rounds to fit the pressure/pushback limits of that frame[ the 444 was over the limits]
Ps... Do you have the loading data from SSK?? lyou could call them or I could try to find mine.

[44MAG#1]

If the 444 is over the limit how come SSK chambers contender barrels for it?????

[Tar Heel]

Gtoo here
I also have a 411 JDJ, mine is a 10 in with a super break.....
For a good bullet go to Penn and get the heavy 41 SSK bullet..
JD said that it was originally for the 411 and made to fit a 41 mag ,, I have the mold,
Also for those not familar with the old contender frame ,,, JD designed the
JDJ rounds to fit the pressure/pushback limits of that frame[ the 444 was over the limits]
Ps... Do you have the loading data from SSK?? lyou could call them or I could try to find mine.

Thanks Groo. I do have that 41 bullet mold which casts a 295gr bullet. It shoots real well in the 411 and the 41 mag handguns too. I have all the original loading data for the cartridge that was supplied with it years ago. I have also developed some other data for it with other bullets as well. As you are probably aware, the 411 digests heavier bullets better due to the twist rate of the barrel.

Attached is a photo of the SSK 411-JDJ 275gr bullet (actually a 295gr) from the N.E.I. mold. SSK contracted with N.E.I. to produce these molds and you had to order them from SSK.

Later....

[redneckdan]

Thanks for the info. I kinda feel the same about 375. Went with a 375 JDJ over a 358 because I already have a holland and holland.

[Tar Heel]

Here are the results of the Accurate Mold 376265D for the 375-JDJ. When Tom says they will cast .376 in WW he means it. This is also my first run with RIFLE bullets and that was a fun learning exercise. Absolutely have to keep the mold on the spout to get the base of the bullet to fill out correctly. Can't wait to light some of these off!

[Tar Heel]

If the 444 is over the limit how come SSK chambers contender barrels for it?????

They can now due to the G2 frame. Heck...they can chamber anything now.

[Tar Heel]

WAHOO.....the 411 Mold came today! It's going to be a long night.

[Tar Heel]

Here are the results of the first casting with the 41340J mold from Accurate Molds. I had to seat these just a tad deeper than anticipated since the tolerances are so tight. In the 411-JDJ this wont be an issue but I do have a request in to Tom to shorten that front band a tad to take advantage of the crimp groove.

These were cast in WW allow and drop quenched. I have not put GC's on these yet since I am still waiting for those to arrive. I can't wait to get these to the range for some chrono and accuracy work.

These are just great looking bullets. Perfect lines.

[44MAG#1]

SSK chambered for the 444 Marlin long before the G2 frame. I had a super 14 barrel they did for me many years ago. No G2 or Encore then.
Now back to my original question: If the 444 Marlin is over limit how come SSK chambered for it and still does?

[Tar Heel]

Not to nit pick but didn't you just answer your own question?

[Tar Heel]

For those of us shooting the 411-JDJ, you really should investigate the 41-340J and 41-340K molds from Tom at Accurate Molds if you haven't already. The "J" is the GC version and the "K" is the recently designed PB version of the bullet. I will be doing some comparative load/bullet development data and will be putting that data into a white paper within a few months. That is going to be my winter project.

Note: These bullets (in the SSK 411-JDJ) have very little tolerance and require some finesse to cast, size and chamber. These are NOT high production, will fit into any chamber ever made type bullets. The 41-340J is gorgeous when loaded up and here is a shot....which really does not do this bullet justice. We were down to .0001 (ten thousandths) with the micrometer measuring bullet diameter on the driving band to perfectly fit the throat of the chamber. A little polishing with OOOO Steel Wool was what it took to polish the driving band.

[Tar Heel]

Got my butt kicked out in the reloading shed today. Just could NOT get it pulled together. Kept chasing variables until I put everything away for another day. Now I KNOW BETTER than to seat and crimp in one motion but.......I did anyway. Was that the issue? Was the bullet size the issue? Was it the other thing.....Jeez.

I did learn a long time ago that when things are heading south on the loading bench, they are not going to head northwards while fussing with them....put it away for another day! The boolits will still be there waiting to get loaded up.

[bearcove]

SSK chambered for the 444 Marlin long before the G2 frame. I had a super 14 barrel they did for me many years ago. No G2 or Encore then.
Now back to my original question: If the 444 Marlin is over limit how come SSK chambered for it and still does?

"Over the limit" is a relative term.

It works fine!

Till your frame stretches then its not so fine. :sad:

[bearcove]

Tar heel those look good!

[Tar Heel]

Tar heel those look good!

Thanks Bearcove. I'm still waiting on the gas checks I ordered from Group Buy on here before I can exercise this load. I have the seating/chambering and initial loads all worked out and ready. I sure wish the gas checks would get here!

I ordered a PB version of this bullet and I'll bet you a penny I get that mold from Utah before the GC's arrive from 150 miles away. Apparently the thing to say here is "That's Tom for ya." hehehe

[44MAG#1]

I don't believe SSK chambered for anything that would be frame stretching unless one wen't overboard on the loads and pushed them, Then many cartriges many have chambered for would possibly be over the limit.
So I will rephrase my statement: If the 444 Marlin, with SAMMI spec loads, is over the limit in a Contender why does/did/has SSK chamber for it in Contenders long before the G2 and the Encore came out?

[Tar Heel]

I don't believe SSK chambered for anything that would be frame stretching unless one wen't overboard on the loads and pushed them, Then many cartriges many have chambered for would possibly be over the limit.
So I will rephrase my statement: If the 444 Marlin, with SAMMI spec loads, is over the limit in a Contender why does/did/has SSK chamber for it in Contenders long before the G2 and the Encore came out?

Rather than ask us knuckleheads, I'd go here: info@sskindustries.com
:idea:

[bearcove]

I don't believe SSK chambered for anything that would be frame stretching unless one wen't overboard on the loads and pushed them, Then many cartriges many have chambered for would possibly be over the limit.
So I will rephrase my statement: If the 444 Marlin, with SAMMI spec loads, is over the limit in a Contender why does/did/has SSK chamber for it in Contenders long before the G2 and the Encore came out?

:coffeecom

[Tar Heel]

:coffeecom

:drinks: