Why did my brass turn rainbow colors?

[walkswithsticks]

Well, I got hooked on Black Powder Cast Boolit shooting this morning.

I have shot a lot of BP in the past through percussion and flintlock and still have a good inventory of FFFg. I have been shooting a lot of smokeless in reproduction Rolling Block and Hi Wall rifles. My old shoulder tolerates the 38 55 OK, but the 45 70 really abuses me. The logical step in my mind was to try The Holy Black.

It took the better part of an afternoon to round up enough possibles to do the loading and put together 10 rounds of each caliber. I will have to fine tune my process, but that is OK.

The 45 70 shot into 6" at 75 yards, and the recoil was tolerable. The 38 55 in the Hi Wall really scared me with 3" at 75 yards. Impressive for the first try. Things can only get better from here. I might even try wrapping the boolits in paper in the future.

Anyway, I did as I had read and dropped the fired brass into a mixture of water and Dawn detergent. By the time I got home, they all had a pretty rainbow of colors that does not wipe off. Why, and what should I do differently?

My other concern is fouling. The 38 55 Hi Wall stayed pretty clean with 2 wet patches and 1 dry one between shots.

The 45 70 Rolling Block took 3 wet and 1 dry patch to stay reasonable at all. A visual through the bore revealed heavy fouling-could not even see the grooves. I loaded FFFg powder tapped down against the side of the bench, a card wad, slight compression, and a Lee mold 405 gr boollit. I thumb seated and did not put them through the seater die, hence no neck tension. Any suggestions?

Bill

[Don McDowell]

That's just the nature of the beast with the cases. Run them thru the tumbler/vibrator with corncob media with a dallop of brasso,and they'll be shiny in a couple hours.

Sounds like in the 45-70 either your powder charge was to light, hence excessive fouling, or your lube isn't any good.

[Mooseman]

WARNING : Do NOT use Brasso polish On brass cases. It contains ammonia and it will weaken the cases as it attacks the brass... Use only a Non Ammonia polish in your Media !!!

[Seth Hawkins]

Let me ask you this - is the red-ish color closer to the mouth of the case, or closer to the base?

It matters.

[Don McDowell]

WARNING : Do NOT use Brasso polish On brass cases. It contains ammonia and it will weaken the cases as it attacks the brass... Use only a Non Ammonia polish in your Media !!!

More internet uninformed mythological bullspit.

[walkswithsticks]

The colors, although mottled, run the entire length of the case.

With the fat ogive of this boolit, I have to seat at the crimp goove to keep the COAL short enough to chamber. Never thought about the lube. I just pulled some boolits out of the box that had smokeless type lube on them. I have a box of unsized, unlubed boolits. I have some SPG that I can start with. Also have some home brew in a tub. That should make a difference.

Thanks,

Bill

[Don McDowell]

Yeh the smokeless lube would of been your trouble. Tried some lee LLA once... not a good move.

Don't sweat the case colors, you ought to see what happens when you dump the fired cases in a container full of Oxyclean... turns em black right then and there..
Just run them thru your tumbler afer they've dried all will be well in the world again.

[Mooseman]

More internet uninformed mythological bullspit.

You Think so...
Quote "Brass is susceptible to stress corrosion cracking, especially from ammonia or substances containing or releasing ammonia. The problem is sometimes known as season cracking after it was first discovered in brass cartridge cases used for rifle ammunition during the 1920s in the Indian Army. The problem was caused by high residual stresses from cold forming of the cases during manufacture, together with chemical attack from traces of ammonia in the atmosphere. The cartridges were stored in stables and the ammonia concentration rose during the hot summer months, so initiating brittle cracks. The problem was resolved by annealing the cases, and storing the cartridges elsewhere."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

My Mentor taught me this 35 years ago. There have been Many tests done over the years to prove it. People in the Metallurgy field agree with me. You can believe whatever you want , But its your brass , not mine...

[Seth Hawkins]

Mooseman - I've used Brasso on my CAS pistol calibre brass many times without problems. But you're correct in cautioning the user - it's your brass. Use at your discretion. For my more expensive BPCR brass I use TSP and ceramic media in a tumbler. Since getting the tumbler, I've been using it for all of my brass. It just cleans so much better than a vibratory cleaner.

I'm sure if you subject your brass to large quantities of ammonia for long periods of time it will have a detrimental effect on the brass. But I doubt a capful of Brasso in a vibratory cleaner is going to do much damage.

But it's your brass. Do with it as you will.

[Don McDowell]

You Think so...
Quote "Brass is susceptible to stress corrosion cracking, especially from ammonia or substances containing or releasing ammonia. The problem is sometimes known as season cracking after it was first discovered in brass cartridge cases used for rifle ammunition during the 1920s in the Indian Army. The problem was caused by high residual stresses from cold forming of the cases during manufacture, together with chemical attack from traces of ammonia in the atmosphere. The cartridges were stored in stables and the ammonia concentration rose during the hot summer months, so initiating brittle cracks. The problem was resolved by annealing the cases, and storing the cartridges elsewhere."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass

My Mentor taught me this 35 years ago. There have been Many tests done over the years to prove it. People in the Metallurgy field agree with me. You can believe whatever you want , But its your brass , not mine...

Well you quoted stuff and what your mentor told you is deadazz wrong.
I have some cases that have gone over 30 firings and cleanings with Brasso added to the media and they are still going fine.
One other time someone took exception to the Brasso, decided he was going to run a test and proove to the world how bad brasso was. In the end after 12 firings, all of the cases he had been cleaning with brasso alone were still going strong, the most of the others had been lost to cracks in the necks and shoulders.
So maybe you might want to consider doing some actual testing on some of these wives tales you want to spread.
As one prominent nationally known gunsmith put it "there's not enough ammonia in Brasso that if you soaked a case in a barrel full of it it wouldn't harm the cartridge"

[Lead pot]

Brasso didn't eat my brass belt buckle and all of those pretty brass buttons while I was in the service and that stuff has been used on my brass after I got back home and put it in my corn cob and tumbled them in a paint can tumbler I made.
I still have some .308, 06, 22-250 brass from way back then with out holes in them.
and for many years I used the vibrator case cleaner when they came out and put a can of brasso in the cobs or walnut shells and the thin walled black powder cases never had a pin hole or corrosion after they were cleaned and set aside for a while.

[Lead pot]

Come to think about it. Brasso does have a draw back.
With all of those shiny belt buckles and buttons all it got me was what they called "making the Man". and that was cleaning General John Lathrop Throckmorton office instead walking guard.
I think walking guard would have been better.

[powderburnerr]

most brass is annealed during the drawing process numerous times , and the amount of ammonia in brasso is a lot less than in a stable full of horses , and it appears from your writing that it has to be hot, humid,cold formed, AND in an ammonia saturated environment to cause damage. none of which are common with a bit of brasso in a tumbler ,,,,, but as Seth says , its your brass do as you please ,

[Mooseman]

Brasso contains ammonia...that is a known fact so why risk weakening brass...If it can harm brass, it will ! And common sense says when dealing with a controlled explosion , you should never tempt fate. There are many Polishes that can be added to tumbling media that Contain NO ammonia or other Chemicals. I use Dillon Polish personally with great results. Lots of other reloaders use Non-ammonia Car polishes in their media.
Sure just rubbing it on a buckle or a cartridge case and wiping it off may not affect it , but in a closed tumbler where the ammonia can off Gas inside and expose both the inside and outside of the case isnt a risk anybody should take when it is just as simple to avoid it...
I have only been a loader for 37 years , but I still have all my fingers and eyes !

[Don McDowell]

Look up the msds sheets on your other stuff, probably about the same as Brasso. As you can see already there's several folks that do use Brasso as an additive to media.
But you do what you think is right.

[Lead pot]

:p I think you would most likely freeze your fingers off up your way before the brasso will take them off :drinks:

[longhorn]

Just a suggestion for the OP: the .45-70 load probably needs 2Fg and more compression.

[walkswithsticks]

Thanks for the good advice. I really don't mind mottled brass if that is normal for the process. I would rather spend my time shooting than trying to make brass look new again.

Longhorn, I will try that. Thanks.

[Don McDowell]

You will many times get better accuracy from clean shiny brass, than you will from just clean brass. The polished brass gives a more consistant release on the bullet.

[bigted]

i use just the Lyman nutshell media and it cleans my brass plenty well except for the primer pocket...which i then use the rotary brush cleaner to clean the pocket and all is well.

another advantage is the ascetic appeal of the brass...i learned as a kid working on outlaw bikers bikes that the devil is in the details...meaning that if the details of what your working with is done then the job has more chance of doing well in my mind and clean shiney brass does this in spades. also when the inevitable happens...somebody walks up to chat about all that smoke...it is nice to have a tray of shiney shells setting there to be fired rather then the mottled look af dull fire-marked brass.

just my 4 cents [ inflation ] on the subject. also ive learned that one wishing to glean more usefully info from here should stuff the negative comments about what champion shooters do with great success and try to learn from them instead. as a kid i helped race sailboats and the boat owner told us to follow the lead of the winners and do what they did and after awhile we would be in the winners circle with them...guess that seemed to work out well for me and the usefull info he told me stuck with me for a lifetime.