Need advice on the correct size of die for sizing/lubing

[1972]

Need advice on die size for Star Lube/Sizer

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I’m looking for a little advice with regards to the die I need for a lube/sizer I’m getting, and any other advice anyone might care to offer. I am not new to shooting or reloading, but I AM new to working with cast bullets.

I’m taking the plunge and buying a Magma/Star Lubesizer. I’m getting the basic machine plus the heated base. I may get the air feed system for the lube later. Don’t know about the bullet feeder.

Initially I’m going to be sizing bullets that were cast for 44 Mag. I have 8000 of them I got from a friend who quit shooting. These are cast, but not lubed or sized. They were cast on a commercial machine and are 240 grain SWC bullets. They appear to be very uniform and are nice bullets. I’m not sure what the alloy is but I think it’s wheel weight (or close). There is one large lube groove in the body of the bullet, and a narrower groove higher which I assume is the crimping groove.

I presume you do not put lube in the crimping groove, if that is what it is, but I’m not sure about that.

Between myself and a friend we have 4 different guns. All are S&W but one is an older 29-2 with a custom 5” bull barrel, one is brand new from the S&W Performance Shop with a 7 ½” barrel, one is a Hunter Classic with the 6 ½” barrel, and one is a basic 29-2 with a 4” barrel. All S&W in 44 Mag but all in different models and configurations.

Purpose is strictly target shooting.

Now I know in an ideal world one should slug the barrel and order a die sized accordingly (about 1/1000 larger). But if I do that I’ll need 4 dies. I guess that’s not impossible, but I’d like to buy them one at a time to keep immediate costs down.

So my question is, what size die should I get to “start” with? I understand most bullets for that caliber are either .429 or .430 and most “factory” bullets are .429.

Anybody want to toss out some thoughts, ideas, suggestions, etc?

Also, I’m not sure what kind of lube to get. I understand Magma sells a hard lube so I may just go with that. If anybody has any other suggestions with regards to lube I’d appreciate your thoughts. I want a hard lube (the reason for the heated base) because I understand it’s a lot less messy when reloading – and I’m told it works better.

Lastly, anybody got any thoughts on the machine itself? I understand it’s a good one, but am open to suggestions as to what I should get with it or for it.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or tips.

[subsonic]

.431"

[44man]

I would think twice about a hard lube in the revolver. Sometimes it is better to be messy! [smilie=l:

[MtGun44]

+1 on soft lube.

Accurately measuring the throats is how you decide what size to make your boolits for
a revolver, NOT by asking us or reading about it. You want to size to about throat diam
or even .001 or .002 larger. If you have many guns, bigger is better, so maybe the .431
is good, if one of the guns needs bigger diameters.

Slug or pin gage the throats. Read the sticky on revolver accuracy.

Bill

[clintsfolly]

measure the dia. of the boolits and go as big as you can! Clint

[1972]

Thanks guys. Sounds like it should be 431 or 432. Also sounds like softer lube is the way to go. So I guess I don't need the heater?

[Silver Jack Hammer]

Choosing a sizer die and lube might be secondary if your bullets are wheelweights or an unknown alloy. They will probably shoot OK but not exceptionally accurate. Is it possible they are premium alloy? Don't be surprised if you get four different results with 4 different guns. Casting and lubing bullets is a great pursuit, have fun. A lube heater is absolutely necessary in my outdoor shop in December, I use a heat lamp designed for pet reptiles. Works great.

[Frank]

1972:

Also, I’m not sure what kind of lube to get. I understand Magma sells a hard lube so I may just go with that. If anybody has any other suggestions with regards to lube I’d appreciate your thoughts. I want a hard lube (the reason for the heated base) because I understand it’s a lot less messy when reloading – and I’m told it works better.

Go with a harder lube. Soft is all gooey and comes off if they are all in a bag. Think tumble lube that never quits tumbling. When soft lube is seated it will drip into the powder and ruin your loads.


There is one large lube groove in the body of the bullet, and a narrower groove higher which I assume is the crimping groove.

You should try a few first to see if they shoot. If they don't shoot, re-melt the batch and get a good mold. The red flags for me were 'SWC' and 'one lube groove'.

[bobthenailer]

ive had over 10, 44mags over the years and .430 has worked excellent in all but 2 there cylnder throats measured .432 and .433 in those i use bullets sized to .433 to get good accuracy
so you will have to measure cylinder throats with a slug & a mike or use a pin guage to get demnsion and size at cyl throat demension .
As far as Hard lubes go , ive been useing them exclusviley for over 25 years and in several different brands and have no problems obtaining super accurate loads from any of my handguns.
For me at least i couldent imagen my ammo being more accurate useing a soft lube as my accuracy MIN standard is 2 inches at 25 yards for a 25 shot group with a approate gun, quite a few will do that or better that at 50 yards. all testing done from the bench with a scope or a Ransom Rest. with loads from 800 to 1600 fps in just about every fairly popular caliber handgun
My best cast bullet shooter handgun a rpm xl in 30/20 will put 25 shots in 1 1/2 at 100 yards . with hard lube . and the RCBS 165 gr silhouette boolet.
These are my findings after years of useing hard lube and working up the load useing hard lube in alot of handguns .

[Reload3006]

is there 2 posts the same here? lol. ok the best thing you can do for your self is slug and mike your throat (your pistols that is) and get the size you need. Baring that I would go .430 I swage Pb Pills at .4295 dont have any leading issues. However .430 would be better and if you need to even larger than that. Lube Hard lubes are good and effective but a pain to flow through a sizer ... My nod would go to softer lube for that reason only. If your getting stuff through your gun and not leaving skid marks behind your lube is doing great what ever it is. For what that all is worth

[1972]

Thanks again for all your advice gentlemen. I really appreciate it. And sorry about posting this twice. I originally put it in the casting section but was told it might be better here - so I re-posted. As is obvious, I'm not really all that good at this computer "stuff", nor am I completely familiar with forum rules.

To answer some of the questions, I honestly don't know what alloy was used on these bullets. They were cast by a commercial machine, and by a fellow who was making and selling them, so I'm "assuming" he used an acceptable alloy.

As for the size (as cast) I don't know. My mike is out of action right now so I'll have to wait until I get a new one and see what size they are. I'm assuming (again) they were cast large enough that I can size them to what I want, even if that is .430 or .431. Not sure though. I guess I'll find out. I suppose in a worst case scenario I can melt them down and re-cast them myself by hand. As I mentioned they are not sized or lubed.

[1972]

Just wanted to update this with a bit more information.

I found out the bullets (8000 of them) were cast out of a Hensley & Gibbs No 45BB mold using WW alloy. I am told they were designed to be sized and lubed with a .429 die and they will "spring" back to .430 after going through the die. As mentioned earlier, they are 240 grain SWC with 2 lube grooves, although the top groove may be a crimp groove. I don't know enought about this yet to speculate.

That's all I know about them. So I'm assuming if they were designed to be sized on a .429 die then there is no point in trying to size them with anything larger. Right?

If I want to go "larger" I'm going to have to melt them down and re-cast them.

Just for my information, what do most of you 44 shooters consider the "best" bullet to cast for the 44 Mag?

[Frank]

1972:

Just for my information, what do most of you 44 shooters consider the "best" bullet to cast for the 44 Mag?
Large frontal area and a hefty powder charge. Like a linebacker. No sharp shoulders. Alloy must be tough. Hard water dropped alloy. Weaker guns can have all of the above. Just don't go too heavy.

[MtGun44]

Frank,

I strongly disagree with your "soft lube drip off and ruin your powder" claim.

Do you have any actual proof for this wild claim? I have used very soft lubes for
decades and temps in KS get very hot in the summer. NEVER once had a failure to fire.

I say baloney.

Bill

[454PB]

That's all I know about them. So I'm assuming if they were designed to be sized on a .429 die then there is no point in trying to size them with anything larger. Right?

If I want to go "larger" I'm going to have to melt them down and re-cast them.


Until you do some measuring, it's all speculation as to what sizing die or dies you'll need.

Just because it was "designed" to be sized .429 doesn't mean the unsized boolits are too small. I own many moulds designed for .44 caliber that cast boolits ranging from .429" to .433" in WW alloy.

[Reload3006]

My favorite 44 cast bullet is the RCBS 255 keith.

[Frank]

Mtgun44:

I strongly disagree with your "soft lube drip off and ruin your powder" claim.

Do you have any actual proof for this wild claim? I have used very soft lubes for
decades and temps in KS get very hot in the summer.

Why do some here keep their rounds turned upside down? Lube flows. Softer lube comes apart in the bag even.

[fecmech]

1972--We have a number of very knowledgeable people on this board who give great advice on many topics. That said IMO lube is an area where we have kind of a "Ford vs Chevy" thing going. Like bobthenailer I get excellent results with hard lubes (Magma in fact) from mild to wild in handguns including 9MM's but that does not mean it's the only way to go. Try them both for yourself and see which you like the best. On the subject of sizing I would go with your revolvers throat size.

[Frank]

Felix lube is soft and stays in the grooves pretty good, but it needs to be sticky to do that. And I'll bet that sticky lube can melt and degrade powder. Put it out in the sun with a hard lube and see what they do. For me I can see the miracle of how a cast bullet is supposed to work when I use LBT blue in grooves. I get no leading of any kind and the lube is not all over. Plus all the loads shoot their best for some reason, without variation. So Lee is wrong, the traditional way of lubing bullets has stayed the same. Lube in grooves looks better and shoots better. It makes every shot have the same amount of lube in the grooves. It is only the man who has no confidence in his lube or bullet design or alloy who thinks lube has to cover everything. He can't see how lead will go through a bore while only using grooves.

[subsonic]

On the subject of lube- it can and does affect neck tension. More lube = less tension.
Food for thought before you cover the entire driving surface with it.

[Frank]

subsonic:

On the subject of lube- it can and does affect neck tension. More lube = less tension.
Food for thought before you cover the entire driving surface with it.
Maybe lube makes more tension. Lube will decrease friction. Rifle shooters who ultrasonic case clean use moly inside the necks. It reduces the groups. Now what have we learned about tension evenness and accuracy? :coffee:

[subsonic]

subsonic:

Maybe lube makes more tension. Lube will decrease friction. Rifle shooters who ultrasonic case clean use moly inside the necks. It reduces the groups. Now what have we learned about tension evenness and accuracy? :coffee:

I know what you're saying. I did a test a while back when I thought LLA was increasing neck tension. I seated boolits with LLA and LBT blue and hand lubed a couple with LBT blue, even tried different boolit sizes and bare boolits. Some were crimped, some not. Then used a wood screw to pull them in my press after sitting 2 weeks. The ones with no lube were the hardest to pull (by a signifigant amount), followed by "lube in the groove" with LBT, messy lubed LBT, and LLA was the easiest to pull. Size (.001") didn't have much effect and neither did crimp.

[Frank]

subsonic:

I know what you're saying. I did a test a while back when I thought LLA was increasing neck tension. I seated boolits with LLA and LBT blue and hand lubed a couple with LBT blue, even tried different boolit sizes and bare boolits. Some were crimped, some not. Then used a wood screw to pull them in my press after sitting 2 weeks. The ones with no lube were the hardest to pull (by a signifigant amount), followed by "lube in the groove" with LBT, messy lubed LBT, and LLA was the easiest to pull. Size (.001") didn't have much effect and neither did crimp.

So it gives you less friction where you need more friction (tension) and more friction where you need less, in the bore! And we also hear it's only designed for loads 800 fps or less.

[smilie=2: