Rolling Block 50-70 Twist Rate

[Garys007]

Can you guys tell me the twist rate on a 50-70 New York Militia Rolling Block?

Also, any suggestions on a good bullet? I was thinking the Lyman 515141, any other suggestions?

Once I receive the rifle I will slug the barrel and once I know the bore I guess that will help make my decision on a bullet. It seems that the bore diameters varried quite a bit on these old military rifles. According to the Lyman website the Lyman 515141 drops bullets around .515".

I also just ordered Remington Rolling Block Military Rifles of the World by George Layman, any other suggestions?

I should be getting the rifle Friday so I will post some pictures.

Thanks,
Gary

[13Echo]

Rifling twist is about 1:42". Groove diameter tends to be large. The 450gr bullet is about as long as will reliably stabilize at this twist. I found in my 1868 Trapdoor that the Lyman version of the Govt bullet (515141) was too small diameter to take the rifling. The Lee version of the bullet cast about .516" from my mould and shoots well. The Lyman cast at .512" out of the same alloy (30:1 lead to tin). I'm using 65grs FFG Goex in Starline brass, no wad, and a firm crimp on the bullet.

Jerry Liles

[NickSS]

I had a NY musket awhile back and it shot the lee 450 gr slug well with 25gr of 5744. The only problem with that rifle was that it shot a foot right at 100 and 2 feet right at 200 yards but other than windage it shot really tight groups for a rifle with an 8 to 10 pound trigger pull.

[bob208]

i have a 1871 springfield rolling block. it is close to the ny rifle. mine shoots the layman bullet un sized over 65 gr. 1f with a hard card and greese cookie. i use spg lube.

[Garys007]

Thanks for the replies guys. I appreciate it.

Bob, have you slugged your barrel? Just curious what your groove diameter might be.

I think I will try the Lee bullet first. At $20 from Midway, you can't go wrong. The first thing I will do is slug the barrel so I know where I'm starting from.

I'm sure I'll have more questions once I get the rifle.

[excess650]

I think I used a design that looked like the 515142. I'm not sure that the current Lee 515-500-F is exactly it, but close. BTW, the Ideal 515142 was dubbed the NY State model.

[bob208]

no i never sluged the barrel. i tried some sized to .509 they were lose in the muzzle. next tried .512 they still felt lose and did not look right. so i took a unsized one and it fit tight and looked like it was right with the groves so that is wht i tried shooting. it worked out for me.

[Frank46]

Some of you may remember the denali stainless steel barrels sold some time ago. These were 50 caliber with a 1x24 twist. Have heard of rifles being made up using these bbls. From what I have read accuracy was pretty good and the cartridge was the 50-70. Frank

[georgewxxx]

If your into shooting any of the older 50/70's, I suggest buying Croft Barkers 50-70 Shooters Handbook. A quick rundown can be read here at this URL--- http://www.singleshotexchange.com/handloading-the-50-70-for-a.html .

If you size your boolits any smaller than .516, your not going to get the best from your rifle.

[Garys007]

George, yes, I have to get that book. I have several of his for the 45-70 (The Black Powder Cartridge Silhouette Handbook & Cast Bullets for the Black Powder Cartridge Rifle) and I've gotten a lot of good info from them.

It looks like the largest stock mold bullet diameter I can find is Lee's at .515". I emailed Lyman and they said their 515141 bullet drops at .515" but I've read from several places that the bullets drop closer to .512" diameter.

I got my rifle in (I have pictures on a different thread) and I am going to slug the barrel. I actually just started casting and I don't have a piece of lead the right size to slug the barrel. I am going to drill out a .531" diameter hole in a 1" thick piece of aluminum and pour some lead into that and use as a slug.

Assuming the bore is in the .517"-.518" diameter range, what bullet do I use? I'll try the Lee first, but is there any custom mold shops out there with a mold already made for the old rifles? I think Lee and Lyman will custom make a mold as well.

[13Echo]

the Lee version but not the Lyman works in my 1868 Springfield apparently due to the larger diameter of the Lee bullet. there is a group buy for this design bullet currently accepting orders. It will cast a plainbase of hollow base version of the govt. bullet at .515". The hollow base should be a good solution for the rifle with the really large bore. It's listed as .515141 450 gr bullet in the group buy section.

Jerry Liles

[Garys007]

Jerry,

Thanks a lot! I just jumped in on that buy. My friend has an old 50-70 Trapdoor he needs a good bullet for so I can cast him some bullets as well.

Thanks,
Gary

[georgewxxx]

If you can find it, Rapine's 520375 will do nicely for most of the older guns as does the Lee. The new 515141's are geared for the new weapons made today with smaller diameter barrels. Generally, the old Ideals are larger, but then all you need do is beagle a small cavity .50 to come up with one that meets your needs anyway. eBay seems to have listing for those every week, and the demand isn't there like the smaller moulds, so they tend not to be as pricey.......YET! The heavyweight 515142 never matched the 515141 or anything like it. It's probably better suited for a quicker twist barrel.

I did a piece that's posted in Castpics on shooting the trapdoor. Since then I've acquired a few different moulds. I candidly tell you I've never bothered to slug any of my 7 rifles. Why bother when the sizing dies are very limited unless you want to have one custom bored, but bored to what diameter is a huge question. I started shooting 50-70's way back in the 1960's and at that time Lyman still offered a .515 sizing die. RCBS does now also, and I have both those and a .513 that got used only once or twice. Often times, a as cast slug will suffice, but might seat hard.

One of the biggest issues with shooing those old Springfields and Remingtons is lack of windage and sometimes elevation. Sometimes you can affix a Buffington sight to remedy that. Years ago, Leupold offered what they called a Detacho mount #314 that looks like a single scope mount with a peep sight attached. I found a way to put it in place of the rear sight, and have taken several deer using that system. It gives just enough windage and elevation on my 1868 Springfield.

[Garys007]

George, thanks for the suggestions. I will most definitely keep an eye out for one of the older molds. Like I said, I'm going to try the Lee to start out with and I plan on getting the NOE 515141 mold, but that's not going to be available until April/May. I most definitely want to shoot this before then!

I have my Pedersoli that I am getting into long range shooting with so this is something I will be using to plink out to 200 yards and possibly 300 yards on occasion. There is a range near me that we are trying to organize a friendly original black powder rifle competition. That range goes out to 300 yards and I'd like to try to be fairly competitive in that.

The sights on this gun are nothing like the Lee Shaver Sights I have on my Pedersoli, that's for sure. I need to shoot the rifle and see what these sights are like. I don't want to mess around with it too much, so if I want to change the rear sight, it will have to fit using the same tapped holes the original sight uses.

Thanks,
Gary