Started Casting

[.5mv^2]

I got a nice present from my wife recently. She got me a bottom pour 10 pound pot, a 105g SWC mold and a .358 sizer.

My background: We have been shooting precast and jacketed bullets for some time. Our berm has been recycled a few times, I havve smelted a fair quantity of lead into small cupcakes.

I have made a couple hundred bullets so far. Once I got everything hot enough I was making good looking bullets. I miced them and they were .359-.360"

I have shot them in both 9 and 38 Most I lubed and sized. No failures Not too much leading. Today an old friend promised me a 45 mold.

[bobthenailer]

ALERT !! another shooter hooked on casting pb bullets ! welcome to the fourm! Bob

[Ben]

Yep, after you've spent the standard $4,000.00, things will slow down and you'll begin to save some money.............

Welcome.

Ben

[docone31]

With bottom pours, especially a small one, melt the findings in a seperate pot, then put them in the bottom pour. Occasionally, scrape the inside while it is melted with a long handled screw driver. It is amazing how much crud settles on the bottom, even with clean lead.
You need to keep the heat up on those. The nozzle is temperature sensitive. If you are casting in a cool room, it can slug up. I run mine HOT. When I shut down, I turn the tip several rotations then let it all cool down. I have yet to see the drip monster after all these years.
If the nozzle cruds up, take a paper clip, put in a pencil, or hold it with needle nose pliers, then clean out the nozzle. Flakes of crud will go to the tip.
Personally, I like mine. I have used bottom pours for years. I have run zinc through mine. Troublesome, but it can be done. A mix works better. I use Kitty Litter for a top cover while melting and pouring. I water drop, so I can take rejects, put them on the litter, and they will melt back into the pot.
I do not directly place rejects in molten lead. I preheat them first.
Good luck, and good casting.
The journey begins.

[mdi]

Let's see, you're taking lead and melting and casting it into bullets. Then yer loading them and shooting 'em outta yer gun. I do believe YOU'RE HOOKED!...

I too recommend you smelt in a different pot than you pour from to keep your alloy as clean as possible (and to keep the spout from getting clogged or drippy). I flux with sawdust and stir with a wooden stick (paint stir sticks) and it seems to work well for me. Keep in touch with this forum and you'll find a bunch of good info, thar will serve you well in your casting endeavor.

Welcome to the Brotherhood of The Silver Stream...

[.5mv^2]

Thanks for the replies,
I make my cupcakes on an outside gas burner. I agree that there is a lot of dirt and debris even after that. I am thinking eventually I am going to have melt what is in the pot into more cupcakes and discard the rest.
MDI are you advising throwing in a small quantity of sawdust into my bottom pour or on my outside cupcake maker? Or Both?

I wanted to start with something simple and a round that would shoot in either 9 or 38. As my precast rounds dwindle I will probably get other calibers. I imagine that I will either add or streamline techniques to make better bullets.

I am more of a reader than a writer. Keep posting and I'll keep reading.

[geargnasher]

Sucker! Yer hooked now!

Soon you'll be making cash deals on used wheel weights behind service stations after closing time, searching curbs at intersections late at night for them, trolling the S/S section for used moulds and solder ingots, you'll withdraw from your family and friends, soon they'll ask for an intervention......:kidding:

Gear

[Boolseye]

I love it. What a wonderful present! You did well (on both fronts, casting and marriage).
Welcome to the board. That sounds like a wonderful little boolit to start with, everything you need for 9mm and .38/.357–very versatile. I hope it's a six-banger! If they make it in 6-cav, that's the one I will always choose. They're robust, well-machined and sooo much faster. I have a few 2-cavs, and they're fine as well.
-jp

[Boolseye]

yep, after you've spent the standard $4,000.00, things will slow down and you'll begin to save some money.............
lmao.

[Harter66]

yep, after you've spent the standard $4,000.00, things will slow down and you'll begin to save some money........


More truth than poetry.

The guy that gives you a mould is not your friend , he just doesn't want to go to the meetings alone anymore. :kidding:

Welcome to the fold!

[.5mv^2]

Although I do the casting, she helps to make them go away. It's a partnership.

Mine is a 2 holer. Thought that would be best for a new caster. I see the advantage to having a 6 holer but thought that I would rather make two rejects than do it 6 at a time.

[Boolseye]

Awesome. How's the accuracy in 9mm?

[johnho]

I thought you guys were trying to scare the new guy with that $4,000 stuff. So I checked on my costs-I keep track of all my costs for this casting and reloading game. Well, I am only up to $2,480 for casting so you guys stop scareing him. [smilie=l:
Best $2480 I ever spent too. Other than the reloading costs of course.

[.5mv^2]

Hi
So far no accuracy testing. Maybe can check it out tomorrow. My wife hit our 6x12 gong with one @ 70 yards with her glock 19 v2.

We are using 4.8gr of w231. in the 9s. It cycles in all of the 9mm lugers that I have tried. I have tried it a glock, Keltec a springfield. 38's in a smith, so far. Going to get the Chrony out to see what happens.

Not worried about spending a lot of money. No way to pay for it. Just cruising.

[MtGun44]

KE -
Congratulations, great choice. This is the first mold I bought in 1976. Still have it, still a
good mold and good design.

Bill

[Boolseye]

When I first got interested last year, I told the guy I was buying boolits from, "I think I'd like to try casting." He told me I couldn't afford it. One year later I cast for almost every caliber that I shoot (I don't cast .22), and a couple others besides. I actually don't think my layout has been much over $500, total, though I'm probably being optimistic. Lee is pretty darn affordable. A lot of the outlay is time, gathering range scrap, smelting, experimenting...and I enjoy every minute of it.

[MikeS]

I thought you guys were trying to scare the new guy with that $4,000 stuff. So I checked on my costs-I keep track of all my costs for this casting and reloading game. Well, I am only up to $2,480 for casting so you guys stop scareing him. [smilie=l:
Best $2480 I ever spent too. Other than the reloading costs of course.

Another $1520 to go!

[MikeS]

MDI are you advising throwing in a small quantity of sawdust into my bottom pour or on my outside cupcake maker? Or Both?


I'm not MDI, but I would say both. Or in other words, use the sawdust as your flux. For making the cupcakes (AKA ingots) I would flux with sawdust, then once it's burned up, and you've mixed it thru your alloy, skim it off so you can get to the lead. On the bottom pour pot, flux with plenty of it, and you can basically use it to keep your alloy covered, rather than the kitty litter. The 2 best forms of sawdust flux (IMHO) is PatMarlin's CFF flux (best), and pine small animal bedding (2nd best). Either one is fairly cheap to buy, and will last you a long time. I would say the CFF alone would be good for fluxing your smelting pot, and either CFF followed by the bedding, or what I do, a mix of the 2 would work well in the bottom pour pot. I find the bedding makes a better cover over a bottom pour than the CFF alone, and by mixing them together I get the best of both worlds! I find that the CFF alone tends to become ash much quicker than with the bedding mixed in, and so doesn't make as good a cover (although it's the best just to flux the metal).

[220swiftfn]

I got a nice present from my wife recently. She got me a bottom pour 10 pound pot, a 105g SWC mold and a .358 sizer.

I see your wife likes her "alone time".......


:kidding:


Very understanding wife, congrats!!!


Dan

[Boolseye]

MDI are you advising throwing in a small quantity of sawdust into my bottom pour or on my outside cupcake maker? Or Both? +1 on both. Sawdust is your friend.

[.5mv^2]

I got a target out and shot my Keltec pf9 with my new bullets. It has fist sized accuracy at 40 feet with some 125 grain Missouri RN lead bullets.

I wasn't so happy. Bullets were all over the silhouette target, about 40% were hitting sideways. I was at 4.6 grains of w231. I backed it down to 4.0 but some still were skewing in sideways.

They all shot and seemed to have normal recoil in this lightweight gun. The gun barrel was leading from the middle to the muzzle. I had them lubed with Lee alox and some wax. I recovered some of the bullets and they still showed some lube in the grooves.

I figure I have a lube problem and the loads might be too hot. Other thoughts?

[Boolseye]

Make sure the boolits are dropping big enough. Sounds like it may be a size issue.
The other things that will help are 1) enough lube and 2) a slower burning powder (don't know the burn rate of W231, but it seems fairly fast if those are your charges). AA#7 is a great cast boolit powder for the 9mm. The other thing is you may be case-swaging the boolit when you load it. Avoid the Lee FCD for cast boolits. IF you can, pull a bullet from a loaded round and measure it. It may have been crushed by as much as .003.

This is a very common issue in 9mm. The loads need to be carefully developed.

I guess the last question would be alloy–I think it needs to be up around 12-14 BHN once you get to 1000 fps and over.

[.5mv^2]

boolseye
Here is where I am now. Checked the bullets going in to brass they were .3575 on my micrometer. I loaded a couple of dummies came out .3555". Maybe lead alloy is too soft or my Lee 9mm die is below what works.

I saw here where someone added a spacer to their 38special expander as the nose was longer and got a work around. I thought that perhaps I could machine the standard expander near the nose so that the expander could fit down a bit further. I lathed it up and took off maybe .05-.06" Sure enough loading a dummy round I was able pop the round out and it was still .357". These most recent rounds were water dropped as I figured that would harden them some.

Enthused I went out and loaded 3 rounds with 4.o grains of w231. W231 has worked for both 125 and 90 grain pre cast.

The bullets all went into a cardboard sideways at 40'. Didn't group and there was nearly a foot between them. One was 4" from point of aim.

I recovered 2 of the rounds and although you could see the lateral flattening there was sharp rifling over much of the round. I would think if the round was skidding out of the barrel I would not be able to find rifling.

I need to test them further in the 38 special.

I am believing that my alloy is too soft, or as you suggest maybe the powder might be stressing the round because of it's speed.

At least they all go bang.


Make sure the boolits are dropping big enough. Sounds like it may be a size issue.
The other things that will help are 1) enough lube and 2) a slower burning powder (don't know the burn rate of W231, but it seems fairly fast if those are your charges). AA#7 is a great cast boolit powder for the 9mm. The other thing is you may be case-swaging the boolit when you load it. Avoid the Lee FCD for cast boolits. IF you can, pull a bullet from a loaded round and measure it. It may have been crushed by as much as .003.

This is a very common issue in 9mm. The loads need to be carefully developed.

I guess the last question would be alloy–I think it needs to be up around 12-14 BHN once you get to 1000 fps and over.

[Boolseye]

Good work. You're narrowing things down. I still get keyholes occasionally with my TL356-124TC.

[.5mv^2]

Went out and shot some 38 spl with this bullet today. They were loaded with Unique. Tried two guns and both printed well with no keyholing.

Shot 5 rounds with a slightly reduced load still using w231 and 3 rounds were decent enough a fourth went low and one went sideways and low. I wish I knew which rounds were which. These rounds cycled the gun but were not much more than 380's Maybe it would make a decent bullet for a 380.

[Lizard333]

Starting off like yourself don't let guys scare you away from lee molds. They are cheap, but the lessons you learn on them are transferred to your higher dollar molds later on. My first mold was from lee, the 358-140-SWC and I still use it and enjoy it.

[Harter66]

I've shot 1000 or so of the TL356-124TC's over Unique out of my FEG HP9 . As cast w/some Darr like lube.mine are cast of WDWW that drop some where between 359-360 . I'm going to try them in some full tilt 357s.

You may try a different primer, I had a load recently that was night and day.

[odfairfaxsub]

well i might be wrong but i had two pf 9s and the reason why i would think you was leading is they do a sheetz tastic job of finishing the inside of their barrels due to the vigillant craftsmanship efforts of a gentleman named mike.

from what i learned in 5 years or so of casting half the battle is either lube, hardness, or/and barrel finish. my biggest battle is always barrel finish since lee alox is pretty awesome

[.5mv^2]

RE gun quality
It is a cheap gun but has shot great groups with other rounds. I don't think it is the gun. It might be but why would it shoot groups with 125 and 95 grain cast rounds?

In 38s it shoots pretty good. Maybe another week before I get to play with it again.

I think I am going to try some slower powder and yes another gun.

[cbunt1]

Sucker! Yer hooked now!

Soon you'll be making cash deals on used wheel weights behind service stations after closing time, searching curbs at intersections late at night for them, trolling the S/S section for used moulds and solder ingots, you'll withdraw from your family and friends, soon they'll ask for an intervention......:kidding:

Gear

Funny you put it that way. Just the other night I met a guy after a match, and sold him a Slim-Fast can full of 9mm boolits out in the parking lot. Said I felt like I was making a drug deal :shock:

[dverna]

The 9mm is not the best round for cast bullets if you have followed other threads here. IMHO using a light bullet will only make it a tougher challenge.

As you have good success with commercial cast bullets, we know the gun is not the problem and your reloading die set up and powder choice should be OK too. That leaves the bullet.

Three things to play with. Sizing, lube and hardness.

If your sized bullet dia. matches the commercial bullets that work, you should be OK. This is easy to do.

One thing to try is casting with a known alloy. You can purchase some or even take 10 pounds of commercial bullets and melt them down. Also easy to do.

If that does not work, then look at the lube. Commercial bullets come with a hard lube. If you are not set up to use it, others here can suggest different lubes. It becomes an exercise in trial and error.

One thought. Commercial casters will sell unlubed bullets. If you can get some from your source of "good" bullets, use your lubing process and see how it performs. That may provide insight as to the quality of the lube and system you are employing.

Once a gun is known to shoot cast bullets well (as in your case), I suspect that load changes (powder/primers) will have little affect in solving the problem you are experiencing. Load development may affect grouping from say 4" to 2" but not "patterns".

The suggested approach calls for attempting to replicate the performance you have proven with commercial bullets. Once that is achieved, you have a reference point and you can play with different alloy, lube and sizing. Lube is cheap and sizing is simple. Savings come from the alloy. But, using any old "stuff" may not easy to do in the 9mm.

If you prove alloy is important, any old "stuff" can be modified but you will need some understanding of the "stuff" you have to address what to add. A hardness tester may be a useful addition as well.

Good luck and let us know what you learn.

BTW, the only test for bullets/loads is printing on paper. Shooting steel tells you nothing. It can be a lot of work to develop a cast bullet and load. Many wind up happy with "acceptable" performance (not as good as commercial bullets) as a result. There are men here who can produce bullets equal to and better than commercial pills. It is achievable, but that skill is not developed overnight. Be patient and approach the journey is a systematic way.

One of the first things you can do is weigh and measure 20 commercial bullets and your cast bullets. What is the SD and extreme spread?

Don

[.5mv^2]

You know I mixed the Lee Alox with some wax to thicken it up. Just felt that the bullet needed some lube with bulk like I have seen on my precast bullets. Guess I should try straight Alox, my bad.

I think I will shoot some 9's from another gun too. I usually shoot .356 precast bullets and these are .357 once I have measured them, after taking them apart.

From what I "think" I know usually a bit big is good

Good thought about taking some precast bullets and melting them into my own mold, maybe it will eliminate the alloy as a source of what ever is wrong. Over half of my findings are my precast S&S bullets the rest are wheel weights, Berry plated or jacketed bullets. I did buy some "lead" on ebay too. When I melted the findings I scraped out a lot of debris. Perhaps my alloy is too soft. I am going to try some in 380s Maybe the lower velocity will be amenable to the bullet.

Looked at my old smith 38 and the barrel was slick and smooth once I wiped out a bit of debris with a single dry corner of a paper towel. My Taurus 38 was not perfectly clean when I started but after two cylinders the shooting had removed the lead.

With all your help I am going to figure this out.

[MtGun44]

KE-

.356 is very often too small for 9mms. I shoot .357 in my PF9 with good accuracy. Try
.358 if .357 is not working. I am not a fan of LLA, it very often fails in 9mms.

About half of the 9mms out there will throw .356 hard cast commercial boolits sideways.

Bill

[Love Life]

As has been said try 357 in the 9mm.

I had the same issues you had when sized to .356. Leading and sideways boolits. I started sizing to .3575 and all has been right with the world. I shoot my 9mm out of 2 glocks with factory barrels. I had decent success with LLA in 9mm, but YMMV. The best lubes I have used for 9mm have been Lotak Hard and Speed Green. Both are/were available from the Bullshop.

Also I would ask around to see if I could try some PB gas checks for your 9mm boolits.

[.5mv^2]

Yes I size them .3575 from my .358 sizer. I have used my kinetic puller and rechecked what was happening to them and they come out of the brass at .357 I am using a standard machinists micrometer to measure them. "

The precast that I have shot have been .356" I don't think it to be a size issue, do you? Particularly when they shoot well with 3 different 38 specials.

Started reading about how to measure bullet hardness and am checked with an hb pencil (the only one I have.) The HB gouges the bullets, so they are softer than 15 brinell.

[casterofboolits]

I would suspect the PF-9 more than your boolits. KelTec replaced my PF-9 barrel due to poor quality.

[.5mv^2]

I weighed my non-lubricated, non-sized 105 swc bullets

The worst ones prior to this were put back in the pot.

Still my bullets varied by 5%, although most were between 109 to 110.5 grains bout 1.4%.

http://veloliner.com/loading/bulletgraph1.jpg
I am going to sort these by weight.

I wonder if the lighter ones have a different alloy I was adding random cupcakes as I needed them.

[Boolseye]

I believe that little SWC would be a good .380 boolit

[.5mv^2]

I loaded a few using Unique using a medium load in 380. No keyholing shot two mags of them. Encouraged I loaded some Luger rounds with unique and my Keltec didn't seem to keyhole either.

I didn't test much this morning so not sure if my results will hold up.

Then next took some "old" rounds loaded with w231 into another great gun, my high point hand gun, they shot a nice group. 4 shots with in 2" of point of aim and two out at 4-5".

So maybe the Keltec needs a slower powder as was mentioned. Maybe it is the gun or barrel.

My wife has some nice 9 mm guns but it seems my 9's are on the cheap side. at least I am making some progress. I really love the nice round holes in the paper.

[Boolseye]

Unique is a great all-around powder. If I could only have one, that would be it.

[Harter66]

I've been told that it drops big a time or 2 .

I am as of now shooting a lot of Unique dated 1969 . In Federal cases I worked up to 4.2 but came down to 4.0 because the primers were flowing some . I am loading in Winchester now and have backed off to 3.8 as a matter of caution as the primers were just too bellybuttoned for my liking . An S&B found its way into a batch of 4.0s and did not hang up but was mouth cracked and considerably flatened the primer.

Its a 2 holer

[mdi]

Thanks for the replies,
I make my cupcakes on an outside gas burner. I agree that there is a lot of dirt and debris even after that. I am thinking eventually I am going to have melt what is in the pot into more cupcakes and discard the rest.
MDI are you advising throwing in a small quantity of sawdust into my bottom pour or on my outside cupcake maker? Or Both?

I wanted to start with something simple and a round that would shoot in either 9 or 38. As my precast rounds dwindle I will probably get other calibers. I imagine that I will either add or streamline techniques to make better bullets.

I am more of a reader than a writer. Keep posting and I'll keep reading.

I use sawdust in both smelting and in my casting pot. For my casting pot I'll pour in a half handful of common lumber (white pine?) sawdust. Let it char for a minute and stir with a stick. I stir vigorously all through the pot, scraping the sides and bottom, mixing the sawdust thouroughly. Most of the time I'll let the pot sit until all the dross has floated to the top and skim it off. Works for me...

[.5mv^2]

Thanks again.

I shot my wifes PF9 and my pf9 seconds apart and got 2 sideways rounds (of 7) with my gun and straight shooting with hers. It was only one mag from each her gun got the group covered with one hand and mine took 3 hands, Both at 40'. I wish I knew why my gun shoots 125 and 90 grain covered with one hand.

I have 1000 lead makarov rounds that I am going to test once I size them down.

[.5mv^2]

Decided that my bullets might be on the soft side of things. They are a lot softer than precast bullets which seemed to shoot better in the 9mm. After reading around here I felt that I needed stiffer bullets. Had some solid core solder that I found in a drawer. There wasn't any label on it so I thought why not add some to see what happens. I added 2 feet of it which is about a tenth of pound. Probably had 5 pounds of molten material So the solder weighs about a fiftieth of the total. If it is half tin then I might be adding 1% tin.

Net result was that they shot some better groups only 2 in 18 showed signs of not completely round holes. So I am getting better, I thnk. Next time I will add 3 or 4 feet of solder.

What I noticed was that the average weight of the rounds has dropped from 110gr to 107gr. My mold is listed as a 105 grain. I assume that if I get a harder bullet I will be closed to 105.

My 38 has been happy with these bullets from day one. In nine luger it has been apparently skidding. In 380, well they go straight, not sideways but the sights are rudimentary and accuracy never has been it's strong suit.

[Beerd]

Do you drop your bullets out of the mould into water? That is a good way to make 'em hard.
..