.38-40 Load Advice

[FromTheWoods]

My sons and I have shot through our batch of .38-40 cartridges. Our Titegroup load is very accurate, but I feel I should heed the cautions and advice received from some of you--scrap the load for a powder that comes closer to Black Powder pressures.

Would any of you share your load data and thoughts on using IMR 4227 with lead bullets for our old '73 DOM=1885?

We will also be shooting these cartridges in a Ruger Buckeye revolver.

[FromTheWoods]

Yes. 1873 Winchester manufactured in 1885=no high velocity loads/pressures. Yes, certainly keep the pressure/velocity down for the aged rifle.

Titegroup is in the manuals, but it is a quick powder; number 19 on the chart I'm looking at. We have shot Titegroup out of the '73 for years, but I'm having the feeling I should move to a "Black Powder" pressure curve--and the feeling shouldn't be ignored.

Many of the manuals don't differentiate between loads for the old '73 and those for the stronger '92 and the new replicas (with 1/2 a clue though, I could determine that!)

People have recommended powders such as Alliant 2400 (101 on the chart) and Blue Dot (94 on chart) because they have a pressure curve similar to Black Powder.

KirkD is trying 2400 now, but the last I have heard is that he is not quite satisfied with it.

Waters in Pet Loads has data for IMR4227, but whether it is for jackets or lead, I haven't noted yet.

We've tried AA1680, but are beginning to see that it is not going to work well in the .32-20, so I was looking for a powder for both old 1873's.

On the chart, these powders are rated close to Alliant 2400:
AA 7, Blue Dot, AA 9, H108, AA4100, AA 410, H110.

There are several along with these that I haven't listed--not familiar with them--maybe a bit harder to find them in the stores?

I'll take recommendations. Just looking for a safe, dependable load for a 180 grain slug in the '73. And another for the .32-20.

[Muddy Creek Sam]

Fill the Case with 2F and compress about .1", Soot great in my 3 digit 1894 Marlin. 180gr Big Lube boolit.

Sam :D

[w30wcf]

I have burned several lbs of H4227 in my '73 44-40 made in 1882 with no problems whatsoever. I would suggest 15-16 grs in the 38-40.

RL-7 is a great powder for capacity loading in both the 38-40 and 44-40 and produces b.p. + velocities at low pressure. A Hercules powder pamphlet dated in the 1990's shows 25.8 grs / RL-7 / 13,500CUP under a 180 gr bullet.
Velocity runs close to 1,400 f.p.s.

In the 44-40 a similar load of RL-7 runs 1,300 f.p.s. with a 215 gr. bullet and shoots well in my rifle.

Also +1 on Muddy Creek's recommendation.

w30wcf

[KirkD]

I might be a bit of a perfectionist sometimes. 2400 is working well enough for me that I am focusing on developing loads for other cartridges right now. My 2400 load moves a 180 grain cast bullet out the barrel at just over 1,300 fps and it is accurate too, in my original '73

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I have a Win 73 and have been loading for it with Lyman 401043 a 175 grain bullet and 4227 powder. The first problem is that the bullet is designed for use with black powder filling the case so that the bullet does not set back into the case. If you use smokeless and crimp behind the front band then the OAL is too long and the rounds will not feed through the cartridge carrier. Using a Lee crimp die works with the crimp placed on the mouth of the case, but 38-40 cases are thin and the necks take a beating. I got around this by trimming back the case length so that the crimp could be placed behind the front band. It works and the rounds feed. IMR 4227 is ok, but you have to load within the capacity of the 73. They do not have strong actions and you are best advised to keep velocities around what black powder produced, i.e. 1200-1300 fps. Older Lyman manuals say 17-18 grains gives around 1300 fps. I have used this and it has shot accurately...well as accurately as a 73 can do without any probs. I also use this loading in a Ruger BH Buckeye and it does well. You can go a bit higher (but not much) in the Ruger, but it gets a bit blasty. As other members have indicated; several other powders also do well in this cartridge when loaded correctly and do not put any strain on the 73 action. LLS

[FromTheWoods]

Thanks for the update Kirk. --I hope I wasn't muddling the information you shared with me.

I'd use your load with 2400, except your note on position in the larger cartridge made me think I'd like another powder. On rereading your note to me--it looks as if SR4759 would be a good one to try. (I read your notes before I posted my question. Somehow I missed the SR info. Getting older in the head at times.)

How much wiggle-room do I have on the charts around 2400?
Accurate No. 9 appears to be close on several charts to 2400.

If RL-7 works, that would be good. I have it on hand for .222 loads. It is a bit slower on the charts than what is usually talked about for the .38-40.

[August]

I've been using Trail Boss in the 38=40 for wild bunch competition. It performs consistently and accurately. Leaves the gun clean, too.

If I didn't have this new-fangled (trail boss) powder to use, I'd be using SR=4759. That powder works great in large, black-powder cases.

The gunz I shoot this caliber in are all very expensive (to me) and would take a long time to replace (to say nothing of the gunsmithing that's in them). I wouldn't mess around with fast burning pistol powders in my gunz in this caliber. Hell, I'm sorry I have to run smokeless in them at all.

[John Boy]

180gr Lead Bullet:
17gr 2400 @ 1340 fps - 8,300 psi
8gr Unique @ 1300 fps - 10,100 psi

164gr Lead Bullet: 36gr Fg @ 1230 fps
180gr Lead Bullet: 40gr Fg @ 1320 fps
All loading data from verified reference sources

[Don McDowell]

Technically speaking any smokeless load you find from a source such as Alliant , or Hogdons powder will be operating at the saami spec for the cartridge, which in this case is based on blackpowder pressures.
I've been using Alliants bludot data with the rcbs bullet in my Bisley clone, and getting very good accuracy. 5744 also works well.
Check with Accurate for 5744 data,

[FromTheWoods]

Then, I really don't need to be fretting about my 5.6 grains of Titegroup?!

[Don McDowell]

As long as it's a factory tested load all should be fine.

[cdet69]

Trai Boss seems to work the best for me in this cartridge, aside from actual black powder.

[KirkD]

I'd use your load with 2400, except your note on position in the larger cartridge made me think I'd like another powder. On rereading your note to me--it looks as if SR4759 would be a good one to try. (I read your notes before I posted my question. Somehow I missed the SR info. Getting older in the head at times.).
I still get a pretty high E.S. with 2400, between 63 fps and 95 fps, which is why I would like to figure out something better down the road, but 2400 still gives me my tightest groups. You don't have much wiggle room with 2400. A small increase in powder makes quite a difference in my chronograph readings. SR4759 is a good powder as well. It's increased bulk fills the case a bit better and gives a lower E.S. and accuracy is almost as good as with 2400. My 38-40 SR4759 load is 17.5 grains of SR4759 for around 1,311 fps.

[405]

Kinda hard to duplicate BP ballistics (internal and external) with smokeless. I load light smokeless a lot in old originals including 73s. I do use the chrono when working up loads and closely watch the velocities and SDs. If I see wide swings in either number or unexpected results I know that is not the direction I want to go with that load combination. I try to never exceed original BP velocities and pay close attention to smokeless powders I even try and attempt to use those whose pressure curves seem to be predictable.

The powders I use for all manner of low velocity/low pressure loads are listed from more or less the fastest to the slowest: Trailboss, 2400, Rel 7 and 5744. Trailboss seems to be in a class by itself but 2400, Rel 7 and 5744 all seem to act similarly, depending on the cartridge, thru the lower pressure ranges suitable for the low power, so-called "BP duplication" loads.

In the 38-40 I've settled on Trailboss if for no other reason than the chance of double charge is none to very low plus TB meters accurately and seems to do well with light cast bullet loads in high expansion ratio cartridges like the 38-40 and 44-40.

[FromTheWoods]

I appreciate the input you folks are offering--and the load information.

I'm still learning.

[ajjohns]

I hate to bring back an old horse, but it was a good horse!
I'm wondering about this thread, I look at it quite often. Just trying to get a baseline of components to try as I will be getting back to the loading bench soon.

38 and 44 - 40 is in question here. I have both j-words and boolits, 180 and 200gr respectively.
Have old unique, old 2400 (20 years old), IMR 4227, and looking to try some of the RL 7.
The 38 is a 1873 Winchester, the 44's are one Win 92 and a Remington 14 1/12.
I'm not so concerned about the 44's as they are strong, and I have some experience in this caliber. The 73, well of course not quite so strong but I see some pretty good speeds here. I've saw with my own eyes in articles, write up and such the 4227 powder can range from right about 1000fps to almost 1200 with the use of 18grs. I've saw the same with A 2400, 14grs to the old factory dup load of 16.5 getting around 1300 fps. What's happening ? Powder position, boolit hardness, barrel length?
I think even though my 73 has a liner in it, it's main diet will probably be lead.
I asked via email to the company making RL 7 about why they dropped the load recipes in these two particular calibers and they said it was too slow of a burn for them. Looks pretty good here outa a rifle? Anyway, I'm not trying to hotrod. But as long as I have minimal leading of soft boolits I like those speeds so the sights are printing on par.

You guys are so fun and interesting to read, I love just dreaming up my next "load" of fun.

Thanks!

[35 Whelen]

I recently acquired a couple of '73 Winchesters in 38-40; an '86 production and a '90 production. I've used Swiss 3Fg and Goex 2Fg. Both worked quite well but the Goex was filthy burning. I enjoy BP and don't mind having to clean the rifles at all, but let's face it, cleaning the brass is a headache and disrupts my regimen of load 20, walk to bench, shoot, back to the shop, repeat. Hence my preference for smokeless.

John Kort (See Post #4) is a veritable compendium of information when it comes to the old *-40 cartridges. Per his recommendation I tried Re-7 and was able to easily duplicate the original load (1300+ fps), well sort of, as the bullet, from an RCBS 40-180 mould, actually weighs about 192 grs. Anyhow, the load shot very well all the way out to 200 yds. grouping 8" or less. Not bad considering the horrid sights and my over 50 eyes. But, I prefer to stick with powder in the Unique/Power Pistol/Herco burning range simply because I can get the same velocities with 1/3 of the powder.

Data varies widely with Alliant's being on the conservative side. Ken Waters has done some pretty extensive testing with the 38-40 and recommends 10.0 grs. of Herco under a 180 gr. bullet for the old '73's. I use 9.5 and get right at 1300 fps. With Unique I normally use 9.0 grs. Both these loads are with the 192 gr. cast bullet. I'm not sure exactly how many I've fired, but I've cast two batches of around 300 each and I just noticed I'm about out of bullets again. So that'd be between 500 and 600 rounds although a few were loaded with BP.

I'd suggest a subscription to www.loaddata.com (http://www.loaddata.com). There's a litany of data available there for the 38-40 as well as just about any cartridge you can imagine.

35W

[GunGuy2756]

Wow. This thread is 5 years old and still chugging along.

[Geezer in NH]

I would buy an actual print manual and pass on loading advise on the internet or stick to factory cartridges.

[chajohnson]

I acquired three old Winchester lever guns a couple of years ago, but they've been sitting in a safe until just this week. One is an 1873 in 38-40 and the other two a '92s in 44-40 and 25-20. All were manufactured c.1890's. Bore rifling is decent on all three and they seem to be mechanically sound.

I embarked upon a hand loading project with these rifles and decided I'd tackle the '73 first. So, I ordered the RCBS Cowboy die set and the 40-180 mould. I also ordered some Starline brass. The order arrived & I'm ready to start casting. I've also decided to avoid black powder due to clean up of the brass, and just stay with smokeless loads. As such, I thought the revival of this thread was quiet timely.

I do have a few of questions, however. First, due to the age of the guns, I thought it wise to stay in the realm of black powder velocity and pressure. With that consideration, I was thinking that my 50/50 COWW/SOWW with a small amount of tin and lubed with NRA formula would be about right. I have quiet a bit of this alloy as it is my goto for cast bullseye pistol loads. These test approx. 9-10 BNH on my Lee tester. Or, should I go with just go with lead or a lead tin mix? Second, the above referenced powders are pretty slow burning compared to typical pistol powders. I have Blue Dot, 2400, & 4227. Should I be using magnum pistol primers to ensure adequate ignition? Finally, has anyone experienced any position sensitivity with these powders?

Ultimately, I'd like to use this old '73 as my 100 yrd. hog rifle if I can develop an accurate load for it. I'm on a deer lease in East Texas where there's a couple of sounders of hog tearing up our deer feeders. I believe that is a capitol offense in Texas and I'd sure like to be judge, jury, and executioner.

[35 Whelen]

I would buy an actual print manual and pass on loading advise on the internet or stick to factory cartridges.

For the less than the cost of two printed manuals, one can have a one year subscription to www.loaddata.com (http://www.loaddata.com) and print all the loads therein. Sort of obsoletes printed manuals.

35W

[35 Whelen]

I acquired three old Winchester lever guns a couple of years ago, but they've been sitting in a safe until just this week. One is an 1873 in 38-40 and the other two a '92s in 44-40 and 25-20. All were manufactured c.1890's. Bore rifling is decent on all three and they seem to be mechanically sound.

I embarked upon a hand loading project with these rifles and decided I'd tackle the '73 first. So, I ordered the RCBS Cowboy die set and the 40-180 mould. I also ordered some Starline brass. The order arrived & I'm ready to start casting. I've also decided to avoid black powder due to clean up of the brass, and just stay with smokeless loads. As such, I thought the revival of this thread was quiet timely.

I do have a few of questions, however. First, due to the age of the guns, I thought it wise to stay in the realm of black powder velocity and pressure. With that consideration, I was thinking that my 50/50 COWW/SOWW with a small amount of tin and lubed with NRA formula would be about right. I have quiet a bit of this alloy as it is my goto for cast bullseye pistol loads. These test approx. 9-10 BNH on my Lee tester. Or, should I go with just go with lead or a lead tin mix? Second, the above referenced powders are pretty slow burning compared to typical pistol powders. I have Blue Dot, 2400, & 4227. Should I be using magnum pistol primers to ensure adequate ignition? Finally, has anyone experienced any position sensitivity with these powders?

Ultimately, I'd like to use this old '73 as my 100 yrd. hog rifle if I can develop an accurate load for it. I'm on a deer lease in East Texas where there's a couple of sounders of hog tearing up our deer feeders. I believe that is a capitol offense in Texas and I'd sure like to be judge, jury, and executioner.

I normally use a mixture of 50/50 lead/WW, but I've used everything from 70/30 lead/WW to straight WW and find little to no difference in how they shoot. I too have an RCBS 40-180 mould and really like it as it produces a heavier bullet which I'll likely use for deer someday.

I tried some 2400 but wasn't real pleased with the resultant velocity spreads. I've used 2400 in .38's, 357's and .44 Specials and it seems to work better at a little higher pressures, at least for me.

35W

[ajjohns]

Mr. 35 Whelen, thanks for your thoughts. It seems for me the only thing I need, that I never seem to find is time. I'll get into it more here soon. I'll try my Unique and some others since I have them, maybe just wait a bit on buying the RL7. Rainy days are coming here soon so I will have to make some time up.

[35 Whelen]

I love daylight savings time! I get home from work in plenty of time to shoot, which is what I did yesterday evening. I recently acquired an older Lyman SC 40143 mould and had cast a small pile of bullets. So yesterday evening I hied off to the bench to lob a few at the 200 yd. gong. The load was 8.0 grs of Power Pistol which nets right around 1300 fps. Results were not so good. Although the next to highest step on my rear sight elevator puts me just about on at 200, I normally have to fire 2 or 3 shots to get an idea of where to hold to allow for our ever present winds. The bullets from the Lyman mould seem to have a mind of their own at this longer range. Just when I thought I knew where to hold, the next shot might completely miss the 22" steel circle. Funny thing is, this load and bullet groups very nice at 50 yds. at around 2" or less and pretty decent at 100.

So I grabbed a handful of cartridges that were loaded with the bullet from the RCBS mould (same powder charge and roughly the same velocity) and tried them. MUCH better! That load shot very predictably.

So, there's a little more info for you guys.

35W

[ajjohns]

I've been handloading for about 25 years. We never stop learning. Though I haven't loaded my stronger 44/40's for too many years, I kinda have a good idea what they like. But with that being said the powder charges and components are little more forgiving in a strong rifle. My 73 Winchester in 38 is in good shape, new toggles too, but I get a little funny feeling sometimes when I read what some are using for their loads. And seeing such variances in speeds with power charges that are the same make you wonder sometimes just what, is going on. That's the biggest reason I ask these things. I'm not too scared or ignorant to start low and work up, just trying to get some good baselines.

[35 Whelen]

There are alot of things that could cause variations in velocities and chronographing cast bullet loads many times leaves me scratching my head.
For example I loaded 8.0 grs. of Power Pistol and the bullet from the RCBS mould which weighs 192 grs. Average velocity was 1302 fps. Meanwhile I cast some bullets from the Lyman mould that weigh 177 grs. lubed and sized. Load them over the same amount of Power Pistol and they averaged....1291 fps. 15 grs. lighter and 12 fps slower. Odd to say the least!

35W

[ajjohns]

Indeed. This is what I mean, and not all times (sometimes there is no rhyme or reason) I would say the people are wrong but it makes you wonder if they're typing the same thing they used. Or maybe thought they used. But I would hope they're typing as accurate as they're load.:wink: Knowing all these variables can sometimes get confusing.

PP, this is a powder around the same burn rate as Unique? I've saw this one used in 45 Colt is why I ask, seemed ok there also.

I've read and re-read a lot of Kirk D's posts and he sure looks to have a good handle on the WCF rounds. Pains taken in a lot of his tests are sure some you can learn from. Well, I can't just name him, a lot of you guys on here sure help out for info one would have to learn the hard way or take a longggg time figure out.

Thanks again.

[35 Whelen]

When I got in this evening I just HAD to shoot one of my 38-40's. This time I grabbed the older one, an 1886 production. This ol' girl has seen a lot of miles, wear and tear. When I got it the bore was beyond hopeless, so I had John Taylor line it. The one silver lining is it came with a decent aftermarket tang sight. So off I went to the bench with a handful of the 8.0 gr. Power Pistol loads with the 177 gr. bullet from the Lyman mould, the same load that wouldn't shoot for diddly out of the other Winchester. Once I got the tang sight set for the 200 yd. target, she put shot after shot well within the 12" circle on the target! Oh joy!
I saved three shells and ran them over the chronograph; 1354 fps and an ES of 15. I have no idea why velocity was so much higher than it was out of the other rifle. This ought to be a great load for plinking and practice, at least out of this particular rifle.

35W

ETA- To answer your question about PP burn rate, it seems to be right in between Unique and Herco.

[ajjohns]

I have a 73 barreled action with a barrel the same as you had lined. Corrosion on the breech end, cleaning rod wear on the muzzle end. A liner will be in order when I decide to get it together. Or possibly since I have no rifle in 45 Colt, maybe it's time to get it bored up for that. The barrel diameter on this one is a bit bigger than standard, it's neat looking. I looked at a burn rate chart for some of these powders in this thread, from Titegroup at 26 to RL 7 at 146, there's quite a spread there for rifle loads. Some of the ones in between these two are never really mentioned. IMR 4198 and H-110 are two powders I have that I never hear of being used in the 38 and 44 WCF. I don't know if I'd experiment just yet with that unless in my Rem 14 1/2 and some serious calculating. I understand the theory of slow burning powders and their pressures being down because of the smaller size of charge and the length of the barrel used in burning them. And the higher pressures for a faster burning one in the same weight charge. I don't know, sometimes I may dream too much or something. I work at a job that tries to test the best possible variables in mechanics, maybe that's why.

[chajohnson]

35 Whelen: Where are you crimping that 40 cal Lyman mold? I have that mold & use it for 40 S&W loads. I loaded up some dummy 38-40 brass with it but couldn't it to feed in my '73, unless I crimped forward of the top grease groove. Then, the crimp wouldn't hold with dummy rounds in the magazine. I had already ordered the RCBS mold, so I gave up trying to load the Lyman SWC.

[35 Whelen]

Yes. I seat the bullet to about 1.592", 1.6 being absolute max, and crimp at that length. Normally the crimp holds fine but I did have one yesterday that pushed back in the case. I think that happened because I didn't size that particular case. When I was seating that batch of bullets I remembered one seated really easy, and I bet that's the one that messed up. I use the same method with the bullet from from the 40-180 mould and haven't had any problems.

35W

[FromTheWoods]

Glad to see this thread coming back to life.

I'm down to 18 cartridges left out of approx. 1400 that were loaded with Titegroup. Other caliber testing put the .38-40 on the back burner. Ran a batch of brass in the tumbler last night while cleaning my .38-40/10mm Buckeye.

Seems a bit odd that the Universe would align my lack of cartridges, the tumbling, and then finding this thread resurrected--What is going on here!

[Geezer in NH]

For the less than the cost of two printed manuals, one can have a one year subscription to www.loaddata.com (http://www.loaddata.com) and print all the loads therein. Sort of obsoletes printed manuals.

35WUh power down now what. My manuals work with candle or fire light hows your IPad or smart phone.

Want to keepdata HARD COPY means print.

[35 Whelen]

Uh power down now what. My manuals work with candle or fire light hows your IPad or smart phone.

Want to keepdata HARD COPY means print.

Well, first of all I don't imagine anyone would be loading in the dark or without power, but if one wanted to load when the power was out, ALL the data on the site I mentioned is available in printable format. So for example, when I was looking for factory equivalent data for my 45 Colt, I found the data on www.loaddata.com (http://www.loaddata.com), printed it, 3-hole punched it and put it in a binder. Here's what it looks like:






.38-40 Winchester / .38-40 WCF (Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook)




http://castboolits.gunloads.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=134807



Warning! Notes: cases: Remington Peters; trim-to length: 1.300"; primers: Remington 2 1/2; primer size: Large Pistol; Lyman shell holder: No. 14B; cast bullets used size to .400" dia.; firearm used: Winchester Model 92; barrel length: 24"; twist: 1-36"; groove diameter: .400". NOTE: More cast bullet data available under .38-40 Winchester (Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition)



Be Alert: Publisher cannot be responsible for errors in published load data.









Wt.

Bullet

Powder Manufacturer

Powder

Charge

Velocity (FPS)



170

Cast #40188 gas check

Alliant

Unique

7.0

1120



Remarks: sugg. start load



170

Cast #40188 gas check

Alliant

Unique

10.5

1515



Remarks: max load



172

Cast #40143 gas check

Alliant

Unique

7.0

1115



Remarks: sugg. start load



172

Cast #40143 gas check

Alliant

Unique

10.5

1515



Remarks: max load







Problem solved!


35W

[FromTheWoods]

Reloading with no electricity to look up load data?--No problem. Just keep scooting that candle a tad closer to the gunpowder, and PooF, there goes your desire to look up loads.

You fellas need any more reloading tips, I'm here for you.

[ajjohns]

Well over the last week I was able to do up a few loads. It didn't go too bad, but I think I have a little more to do.

1873 Winchester 38 WCF,
Lead was Acmes 180 .401, they were nice average weight was very good and diameter was fine too, some maybe .402 but the lube was all there and loaded nice. they say BHN is 16. I think that's where I ran into trouble later. I'll get to that. I shot all loads through the Chrony, plus Black Hills 180 lead ammo for a baseline. The first loads were with CCI 300 primers. 3 shots a piece ran for speed. 3 shot to the target at 75 yds.

Hercules Unique - 8.5 grs average was 1270 fps
9 grs. was 1410 fps.
IMR 4227 - 18 grs. was 1220 fps.
Black Hills factory 180 was right about the same, average was 1230 fps.

Then I tried Winchester large pistol primers that are listed for standard or magnum loads with the IMR 4227,

18grs, was 1250 fps.

So, It wasn't bad. The 9 gr load of Unique I won't try again right now, I thought it was a little hot. Though it didn't show any signs of pressure.
But, my rifle has a little oops to it. It was previously relined before I got it (this gun is pieced together, by me through ordering parts, assembled to the barreled action I bought) and I think they did a little boo boo with the reamer. I have no idea what the throat measures but the neck area is a bit outa tolerance in diameter to the plus side. I think the Black Hills ammo must be a wee bit softer slug because accuracy is pretty good (1.5 to 2 inches at 75 yds) and any of the handloads weren't as good, in fact after shooting through the Chrony and putting the loads on target for accuracy check they got worse as shooting went on and leading in the barrel was evident. Cleaning the bore, it was pretty dirty. So I think I will try go back to the 4227 powder, lower the charge and try the PSB with it to see if it will seal it up a bit and reduce the leading and bring the accuracy back.

Stay tuned.

[ajjohns]

Well my psb showed up just in time for the weekend. I didn't experiment too much but used the same recipe as the Fellow with the oversized Marlin barrel from awhile back. 17gr of IMR 4227 and 6.5 gr of psb. CCI 300 primer to set it off and did it ever work! I fired four rounds with two sight adjustments until the mosquitos chased me away. At 100 yds, two shots were a bit to the left within a 1/2", adjusted a wee bit too far to the right for the next shot, brought it back for the fourth shot right about as centered as you could get in the bullseye. All were right at about 1300 fps. I'm happy! When I get another nice day I'm going to go for a five shot group and get some pictures. I want to thank all who have done the leg work for these loads, it sure makes for some fun shooting.

[gschwertley]

Two year bump. I was able to get out and chrono a load using Vihtavuori N32C, labeled "Tin Star." In the same class as Trail Boss. No data for Win. 73, I fired these in my Ruger Vaquero .38-40 with 5.5 in. bbl. Bullet was home-cast 180 gr. in RCBS mold. Charge of N32C was 7.5 gr. Speed averaged 874 fps., SD was 12.22. Very clean burning.

[ajjohns]

If that load shoots good to the sights, I'd say you found a pretty good setup. Be neat to try in a rifle.

[smokeywolf]

I've got a '73 SRC in 38-40. Just need to finish the furniture on it. Original parts, but a refinished parts gun. Don't have the room in the shop or the time to work on it.

[Speedo66]

I'm using 6g of TrailBoss under a 180g round nose flat point in my 1889 '73. Works well for mine, pretty light load for this old girl.

[bigted]

Well guess this needs to be brought up again. GREAT THREAD!!! I have a parts 73 carbine going now myself. Couple parts yet to aquire then get it shooting before doing a finish on it. May just leave it rustic with all the patina on the OEM parts.

I have another RIFLE in 38 as well and just looking round for loads and boolits.

This thread is very cool and informative. Let the 38 WCF info continue flowing. Thanks all

[KirkD]

Well, this thread, like the 38-40 cartridge, just won't die. A couple months ago, I acquired an original Marlin model 1889 chambered in 38-40, shipped December 12, 1889. At 25 yards, it put the bullets into a 2-foot circle, some going through the paper at odd angles. I took it home, slugged it, and found it had an astonishing .410" groove diameter (max factory spec was .402"). I really like this vintage Marlin with about 85% of the blue still on it, so I ordered a brass mould from Accurate Moulds that dropped pure lead bullets at .408". I used pure lead because that is what the original 38-40 bullets used back in 1889 and the 1890's, and I figured it would bump up easier to seal the bore. I sized them to .406" and loaded them over 17.7 grains of IMR SR4759. I loaded up five rounds and took the rifle to the range today. I wasn't 100% sure I'd be on paper at 100 yards, so I shot a five-shot group at 50 yards and put them into a 1 & 15/16" circle, with four of the bullets going into just over 1". Velocity is approximately 1,320 fps. I cleaned the bore tonight, and there is no leading whatsoever, so those pure lead bullets are bumping up from .406" to fill a .410" groove diameter and giving me good accuracy. I'm loading up a batch more for another 100 yard session, in prep for bagging a Whitetail deer with this little jewel this fall.

[35 Whelen]

KirkD I'm really happy for you man, I always love a good success story!

35W

[ajjohns]

Great work Kirk, glad it became a good shooter!

[bigted]

So Kirk ... did you stick with the 17.7 grains of SR 4759 with your new .406 loads? If so then the pure lead bumped up with this smokeless load?

[bigted]

Bump back to the top again to maybe develope interest in it again.

My lee boolits work great with BP but id like to do some smokeless loads so i am looking toward Tom at accurate for a new mold with the crimp groove such so i can get a good crimp at the correct length to function through the action.

Gotta get some RL-7 to load for capacity loads at the correct velocity and pressure. My "kit gun" so to speak is still lacking the bolt and a couple wee parts. But i am looking forward to shooting it when done AND shooting my vintage original "73" with some clean smokeless loads.

[Pioneer2]

24gr/RE#7/220grGC is what I run in my win 92 /44-40 clover leaves at 50 yards.......no reason it wouldn't also work fine in it's baby brother 38-40 different bullet and powder charge obviously.Took the head off a grouse this afternoon with it at 20 yards after a morning deer hunt.Win large pistol primers.

[Reverend Al]

Haven't had a chance to load any ammo for it and get out to shoot it yet, but I just bought a very nice little 1885 Winchester Low Wall in .38 WCF with a 1/2 octagon / 1/2 round 28" #1 contour barrel mfg in 1901 according to the serial number. I have some WW .38-40 brass and a set of RCBS dies plus some .40 S&W 180 grain cast boolits that I can try in it for starters, but again I haven't had a change to slug the barrel yet to see what size I am dealing with.

https://i.imgur.com/k1y2HDA.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/Z3nBi7c.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/EYSAsQh.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/AuBvPP9.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/0CyJRLn.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/hj07962.jpg

[ajjohns]

Nice find! That should be a dandy

[FromTheWoods]

I had a good load, using Laser Cast Bullets. But I thought that a gas-checked bullet might be more accurate, and it is. The rifle is an 1873 .38 WCF made in 1885. Its bore is ugly. But now, it consistently cuts 1/2 inch sticks at 50 yards. Such a fine feeling, shooting Great-grandpa's rifle and having it be so accurate.

Bullet-- .402 (soft) 175 grain FNGC from "The Bull Shop."
Powder-- 6.2 grains Titegroup.
Primer-- CCI 300 / Large Pistol.
Brass-- Starline and other manufacturers.
Case Length-- 1.295
COL--1.585

Dan at The Bull Shop makes excellent bullets. I use his bullets in many Winchester calibers. Order to delivery time is short.

https://bullshop.weebly.com/--40-caliber-cast-bullets.html
40 Caliber ~ Mountain Mould ~ .403 ~ 175 grains ~ FNGC - with Crimp Groove