.416 Rigby reloads failure to fire

[smoked turkey]

I have just gotten together all my stuff to reload for my new Ruger No. 1 in .416 Rigby. I loaded up ten rounds to try last night. Today I tried five rounds. Three snapped with a light indention on the primer. Two fired the first time. The loads are duplicated from some info I picked up here. The loads consist of once fired Bell brass, CCI 200 LR primers, 40.3 Gr. Accurate 5744, 0.9 Gr. dacron over powder filler, and RCBS 416-350 FN boolit cast of wheel weights with a fully dressed weight of 365 Gr.
I believe the load info and the assembly of the ammo is not the problem. If you don't agree please let me know where I messed up.

I see that the 416 Rigby has a small shoulder area and I suspect that during the resizing operation , I set the shoulder back enough to allow the case to move forward during the firing cycle resulting in a light primer hit. I snapped the primers three times and none fired. I used the normal (for me at least) lubing cases prior to sizing using a pad. I also used a Q-tip to apply a small amount of lube inside the case neck to avoid stretching the case as the expander ball is removed from the case. I also tried to be careful in applying a very light crimp on the boolit so as not to crush the case neck as the boolit was seated.

I have done all I know to do, and it didn't work for me this time. I need some guidance on what I did wrong and an opinion on what is causing the failure to fire. Thanks for your input.

I will add this...on one of the cases that did fire, the primer had backed out slightly from its seated position. That might be a clue. Thanks to everyone for your input.

Signed....A noobie with the .416 Rigby.

[NickSS]

sounds like you sized them back a bit too far or your firing pin is short. Have you fired any factory ammo in it yet? I would look at the shells that fired and measure the head to shoulder length and see if it is longer than the ones that did not go off. If you have any other brass you may try backing your sizing die off and size a case and see if you can get it in the chamber. If so prime it and fire the primer off. If it works you found your problem.

[smoked turkey]

NickSS: Thanks for the reply. So far you are right on with your advice. I shot two factory 400 gr rounds today with nary a problem. I also resized three once fired Hornady cases and loaded them with LR primers. They both went the first time around with no problem. I have taken a close look at my loaded rounds. I think my problem is one of two and perhaps a combination of both. The C.O.A.L. wasn't exceeded, but the Ruger No.1 may be short chambered to the extent that the RCBS 416-350 FN is into the rifling when loaded to the crimp groove. I experimented with seating the boolit deeper but I don't think that is the major problem. I think the major problem is the slight belling I put on the case neck prior to seating the cast boolit. I ruined one case during the crimping operation and so I am rather gun shy at doing the roll crimp. It is possible that I didn't get the neck flare totally removed. I used a very very small amount of flair when I belled the case neck, just enough to get the gas check started but I think that is part of the problem. In addition the cases were once fired and were not over length but at the limit of case length. So I am going to pull the three rounds that I have left from the ten "try rounds" and start over with sizing, trimming, the whole nine yards in an attempt to get 100% ignition. If someone has other council for me I'd be most happy to get it. Thanks.

[swheeler]

ST; #1 make sure your primers are fully seated in the primer pocket, if they are not you can and will get FTF, your mainspring/striker energy is used up seating the primer to full depth instead of firing. #2- take a fired case and smoke the shoulder with a match, back your FL die out and start sizing the brass, turn your die in 1/16 of a turn at a time, as soon as you see a line in the soot around the center of the shoulder(datum line) stop and try to chamber, if it chambers lock your die down. #3. Take a sized bullet and push it in from the breech, use a pencil to seat it, take your cleaning rod and gently set it on the nose of the bullet, now mark the cleaning rod even with the muzzle with a piece of masking tape. Use the rod to knock the bullet out of the throat. Close the breech and drop the rod down the bore to touch the bolt/breech block, mark this position with masking tape, measure bottom to bottom(or top to top) of the masking tape, this is your COAL with contact with leade(that is usually a good thing for accuracy especially with cast bullets. As to the dacron use enough fluffed up filler to completely fill the space between the top of the powder and the base of the bullet, DO NOT PACK/TAMP THE DACRON, you do not want ANY air space between the two. AS to your load data Accurate #2 shows 350 gr lead ,5744 powder 49.5@1912 to 55.0@2173- 41.6PSI, the dacron will increase the pressure some so backing off a couple grains from this should be a good start. Since I don't own or shoot a 416 I would suggest a search of 416 Rigby with cast, Bruce B shoots one with that same bullet, powder, dacron and in a Ruger #1. That 45 degree shoulder should handle fireing pin strikes quite handily no matter how small it is, but seating the bullet to just contact rifling will surely make it go bang as long as the primer is fully seated and the gun does not have a weak mainspring or insufficient pin protrusion. If you can't find BB posts on 416 a PM should work.

[smoked turkey]

swheeler: THANKS for the good info. I was careful to make sure the primer was fully seated in the pocket. I have read about the procedure you describe for determining the COAL, but like a lot of things that I read, this one passed on by without being processed. I will do as you say to establish the proper COAL. That is good info for me. I like the idea of sizing to the point of allowing the brass to chamber. I will do that too. I had never used dacron prior to this time. I had read about it but had always shyed away from it because I feared ringing the barrel since I had heard that doing it improperly could do that. I did fill the area up between the powder and the base of the boolit. I did not pack or tamp it in. I probably could do a little better job of making sure that all air space is dacron filled which I will also do. Well as you can see you have given me a short list that I feel will improve my failure to fire issues. I sure appreciate it. Oh yes I should say that I had found Buuce B's info on the Rigby and that is why I started where I did with a 40 gr. loading of 5744. He had a wealth of info on it which I also appreciated. Thanks again. I'll report back hopefully in a few days depending on how my "to do" list gets along with other assigned projects.
Stan

[swheeler]

ST; keep us posted, and good luck.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Smoked Turkey,

Well my first guess when I saw the thread's title, was primers not seated properly, but after reading a bit more of your post, I think I'd agree that you over sized the cases.

Always and I mean always size cases the minimum amount that will allow the reloaded case to smoothly rechamber in your rifle.

This is of course for cases fired in your chamber. You may need to size a bit more agressively - the first time - if you reloading range brass/brass other then that fired in your gun..

But, do not follow some of the die manufactures recommendations when they say to set up the full length sizing die where it touches the shell holder on the up stroke of the ram, or worse yet, where the ram cams over center on the up stroke.

In a perfect world where everything is an exact size, it would be different, but where our dies and rifle chambers are cut within allowed Manufacturing toleriences, we must custom adjust our sizing die to work with our chamber.

Otherwise, we are going to pay the price in inconsistant reloads at best, loads which fail to function as yours did, or and very likely very short brass life due to over working the brass.

AS said,

Keep us posted!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[smoked turkey]

Thanks for the advice Crusty Deary Ol' Coot. You are right ofcourse. That along with the excellent post from swheeler will get me on the right track. I have been handloading for many many years but I am amazed at what I continue to learn from the fine folks on this site. I told my son yesterday that loading cast in some cartridges require some advanced loading techniques. I am sure that some of the old timers here just do it and don't realize the stuff they are doing is beyond just "reloading" brass if you get my meaning. I am fairly busy the next several days so I am not sure when but I am anxious to do some of the stuff we have talked about. I won't settle for anything less than 100% reliability from my handloads. In fact I am sure that the ammo some of you load up is better than the custom ammo loaded by some of the big boys. Thanks and I'll report back.
smoked turkey

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

WOW, Smoked Turkey!

Are you ever correct on the cast boolits being a real different animal then loading and shooting the "J" bullets which I have done since the 60s.

Have cast for years, mostly for handguns, but not with the desire to have a rifle giving good hunting groups at 100+ yds.

For me, a lot more effort and testing (FUN) required to get the cast boolit doing what I want then with a "J" bullet, but having a great time getting there. :bigsmyl2:

Glad I didn't wait any longer, to start cast boolit rifle hunting! Getting to the point where help to put a deer on the 4wheeler is a good thing, but Ol'Coot or not, sure having a ball hunting with my own cast boolits in my RUGER #1s - 45/70.

Not sure how much you have read about the effectiveness of a heavy cast boolit, WITH a big/wide and flat meplat, but from my limited experience every good thing said about their game taking abilities is true, in SPADES!!!

Took a big barren cow elk this year with a 465gr cast, and the results were just AWESOME!

So, two hunting seasons with the cast boolits in a hunting rifle and the score is 3 deer and one elk. I am very impressed and wish I had started this cast boolit hunting when I was a lot younger.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[405]

+ three or whatever on the idea that the problem is likely excess headspace.

Chances are the ones that didn't fire with repeated pin falls now have even more headspace! Not only do you have to keep the sizing die shoulder away from the case's shoulder you may need to keep it quite a bit away. To salvage the no fires you'll have to pull them down, size only a portion of the neck, load a mild to medium load of 5744, seat a cast bullet far enough out that it firmly contacts the leade, crimp it there and shoot it just to get the shoulder re-set.

You are also right about a clue... where the primer remained backed out after firing... that is a sure give away as to excess headspace. It is not uncommon for mild pressure cast loads to leave the primer backed out after firing especially in those cartridges that have very limited ability to maintain headspace control during primer impulse. The 35 Whelen is another that will do it because of that "weakness" in case design. That is why the 35 Whelen AI is recommended. As you found out, that fairly sharp shoulder on the Rigby may not be large enough to hold headspace control when the sizing die shoulder even gets close to the case shoulder during sizing! Though the Rigby shoulder is fairly sharp, it is fairly small thus the datum ring is small.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep, "405"

I am a real believer on custom adjusting sizing dies to the needs of YOUR firearm!

Learned this lesson years back with a 7mm Rem. mag with which the brass life was in the pits.

Plain and simple, following the die manufactures directions I was WAY over sizing the brass for THAT rifle.

Had a contender some years back in 35 Remington, another caliber which is said to be problematic in reloading - not enough shoulder etc.

When I got the .35 rem barrel, I also got a box of brass with it, times fired unknown.

Anyway, set the sizing die down just far enough to allow the action to close on a loaded round, and that same box of brass had been shot an additional 16 -- 17 times when I sold the barrel.

Over the top brass life for a round with the reputation of bad brass life.

Sent a newbe reloader an "E" this morning, going in depth into the reasons that following a die manufactures directions for setting up a full length sizing die can lead to less then idea results and very short brass life.

So yep, follow my own advice to size bottle neck cartridges the minimum amount that allows easy/smooth chambering, of course needing to allow for enough neck being sized to give a secure grip on the bullet.

Even a very slight crush fit is not a bad thing, assuring zero head space and a loaded round which remains centered in the chamber.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[smoked turkey]

Thanks 405 for that info on reforming the brass. I needed to know that. Especially for the .416 Rigby. That stuff is darn expensive and hard to come by. I had an idea that I had oversized the brass when I started having troubles. I too have my dies adjusted pretty much according to manufacturers directions of bumping the shellholder at top of ram stroke. So now I am having to relearn handloading after over 40 years of doing it another way. I think what I am being taught now is the difference between handloading and reloading. I have been reloading all these years and I did it pretty well. In the past I have loaded lots of cast handgun cartridges, and lots of j word bullets. Cast in rifles to a limited degree but this 416 Rigby has sent me back to school!
Crusty Dreary Ol'Coot I have taken a bit of large game with reloaded j-word bullets. Years ago I shot whitetail with my Marlin 444 using a cast 44mag boolit. This year I shot a nice doe with my 375 H&H using a cast boolit. Just goes to show the amazing versatility of a large bore with cast boolits. I am planning to do more cast hunting in the future. Like you I wish I'd started it years ago. Congratulations on your three deer and one elk with your own cast boolits.

[Nobade]

After reading this I would see if you can find some 416 Rigby headspace guages and check that rifle. At the same time use them to check your resize die. One of the two is not right, and should be fixed. A Ruger #1 has pretty good firing pin protrusion normally and will fire some very short cartridges. If the die is capable of making ammo so short it won't fire it needs to be replaced. If the rifle has such long headspace that a properly made die can make ammo too short, it needs to be repaired. And besides, as you said - 416 brass is expensive stuff! You don't need it breaking in half prematurely.

[Char-Gar]

If your handloading adventures being you no joy, consider the problem might be in the rifle. If the rifle is "new to you", there might be some old oil or grease inside the breech block that is insulating the fall of the firing pin. If the rifle is "new, new" there still may be some gunk or small metal chip from the machining inside the block.

I have known of Ruger SS rifle to give fail to fire due to stuff in the block. As an aside, a friend of my was suffering misfires from his Smith and Wesson Model 58. He had slathered the inside with grease. When it was removed, the pistol fired like a champ.

[smoked turkey]

Thanks to Nobade and Char-Gar for your comments on the rifle. Funny, there is a No-Go gauge on Gunbroker for $40. Seemed a little high for just the one. I saw it and thought of the comments here. I have not discounted the rifle might be part of the problem. I have gone back to square one by pulling down all cases (got all to fire but 3 with multiple hits on the primer). I have trimmed and judiciously resized all the cases. I tried them all in the chamber and one would not chamber possibly due to the shoulder being out of spec because of the earlier mis-sizing of the cases. I loaded ten rounds and they all chamber without any problem. I will give them a try the end of next week. if they all work then I am on the road to recovery. If not it could be dies or the rifle and I'll deal with that as it comes. My son also has a No.1 in 416 Rigby, and dies, so in the end I am sure we will be able to determine where the problem lies. I do think a build up of grease in the breech block is a possibility, however, I have fired about ten factory loads (that is about all I care to shoot at the recoil level they are) and they all worked fine. Thanks all.
Stan

[405]

Doubt that the rifle is that far out of spec. Could be just near the upper end of 416R specs. In any case most factory rifles are that way so they will chamber most factory rounds. And, if you know from the get-go the headspace length is a little generous... very simple to fireform that first load with the cast bullet seated out and jammed hard into the leade to set the shoulder. Then just keep the sizing die well away from the shoulder with subsequent re-sizings. Then if sometime well in the future of reloading cycles of the brass you notice that chambering is becoming too difficult... adjust the sizing die in with care to allow for chambering again. Hope it all works!

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep, what "405" said.

Clearly if your rifle is firing factory fodder, it is OK and fit to shoot. [smilie=w:

Forget the price of the go/no go gauge!

You can fire form to your chamber by long seating some cast boolits to the point where they are held in place by the lands.

This will hold your "head space" and allow the brass to form properly.

Have done this, except with "J" bullets, forming 30/06 brass to 30 Gibbs, and the shoulder had to go a far greater distance forward then will be required in your situation.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[Char-Gar]

A couple of years back, I had a new Browning Traditional Hunter in 30-30. This is a 1885 falling block. It started giving me trouble and I called the factory service folks. They said send it back, but first see if there were some machine chips inside the block, as they have seen several issues with that. I blew out the block with solvent and compressed air and the problem went away.


So factory new rifles can show up at your dealer, with issues. It is all to common. I have found problems in the Brownings, Winchesters, Smith and Wessons and Rugers.

[oldgeezershooter]

After firing your loads, you might just neck size from then on as they will conform to the chamber,unless they will be fired in someone elses gun.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Yep, as has already been said, Always set up your full length sizing dies to size the minimum amount needed to allow for YOUR brass, FIRED in YOUR chamber to smoothly rechamber in YOUR firearm.

CDOC

[skeettx]

One trick that I have used with oversized cases is to put a SMALL piece of take on the shoulder to force the case back into the breech block.
Upon firing there will be a SMALL dent where the SMALL piece of tape was.
Upon the next firing with NO tape the dent will iron out

Mike

[JesterGrin_1]

One trick that I have used with oversized cases is to put a SMALL piece of tape on the shoulder to force the case back into the breech block.
Upon firing there will be a SMALL dent where the SMALL piece of tape was.
Upon the next firing with NO tape the dent will iron out

Mike

Sorry Mike but this is not something I would do or even recommend to do. It is like putting a bandage on your elbow for a sore on your knee lol.

The brass needs to be sized to the chamber either by the correct use of sizer dies or by fire forming the brass. And the said brass should be marked and set aside for use in the rifle they were sized to fit.