Question on Marlin Ballard rifles

[Hang Fire]

Were all original Marlin Ballard rifle receivers color case hardened, or were some blued etc?

[NickSS]

As far as I know they were all color case hardened not blued. Most old ones that I see have patinaed out and look grayish after cleaning them up. Also some of them had cast iron receivers. These were mostly the ones for smaller calibers.

[BrentD]

Can cast iron be case colored? I wonder if the cast iron actions were blued.
I don't have an answer to this but I have never seen a for-sure blued action that looked original. My one cast action (#3 Gallery) is so "plum" it could have been anything originally.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I checked the Lt. Col. William S. Brophy book on Marlin Company history. In the section on Marlin's production of Ballard rifles there is no mention of cast receivers. There is a statement to the effect that receivers were forged. None of the pictures show any blued receivers.

BvT

[leadman]

The older H&R single shot, pre SB-1 and SB-2, had color cased cast iron receivers.

[Hang Fire]

Can cast iron be case colored? I wonder if the cast iron actions were blued.
I don't have an answer to this but I have never seen a for-sure blued action that looked original. My one cast action (#3 Gallery) is so "plum" it could have been anything originally.

The barrel, receiver and lever on my Ballard most run to dark brown, some blue on barrel below the wood though, the butt plate shows some very faint case coloring. Boy Marlin Ballard’s were hell for stamping mucho serial numbers, even the wood and extractor on mine have the SN stamped

Know the Marlin Ballard Pacific and Montana are all forged Norway steel (?) receivers, others, not sure.

A quick way to determine if receiver is cast or forged, is to drop the action out and look to front of receiver from inside. If there is a hole below the barrel, it is cast, if solid, it is forged.

Many people think the cast receivers are iron, but guess research has revealed they may in fact be cast steel and stronger than most think. Cast iron has no give, over stress and it will shatter, cast steel will give, then spring back when stress is relieved, but over stress too much and it just becomes another wreck.

Guess I am going to have to spring for 80 bucks and get John Dutcher’s book “Ballard, The Great American Single Shot Rifle” he put about 20 years of research into it and is considered the last word on Ballard rifles.

http://www.ballardriflebook.com/

Book Contents: http://www.ballardriflebook.com/contents.html

[Hang Fire]

I called John Dutcher this afternoon to order his book and got to talking. He said no Ballard receivers were blued but all were color case hardened except for a few that were nickel or silver plated.

BTW, he doesn't take CC anymore, but checks can be mailed to address given at link in earlier post.

[Chill Wills]

Hang Fire, Thanks for the good information update. This thread got me wondering too. I have Dutchers book (a must for Ballard lovers) and another book which is a good guild to all things Ballard plus some Marlin is by George Layman.
A Guild To The Ballard Breechloader

If John Dutcher said it I would bank on it... in addition Layman has early rifles with "iron" frames and some of brass. Any and all are could be plated Nickel or far more common are the "color cased" frames but Layman (like Dutcher) does not even mention a blued frame. Barrels are blued but I guess never were the frames.

As far as CC of cast iron frames, not sure from Layman's book. Maybe the early iron was plated and the the later cast steel would take a color case. He is not clear on that point.

Ballard history is so varied with all the different owners, plant locations, contracts, Models and custom items on Marlin models that it might be hard to say a Ballard never had this or always had that. Guns are still comming out of attics and books are being updated.

[Hang Fire]

Hang Fire, Thanks for the good information update. This thread got me wondering too. I have Dutchers book (a must for Ballard lovers) and another book which is a good guild to all things Ballard plus some Marlin is by George Layman.
A Guild To The Ballard Breechloader

If John Dutcher said it I would bank on it... in addition Layman has early rifles with "iron" frames and some of brass. Any and all are could be plated Nickel or far more common are the "color cased" frames but Layman (like Dutcher) does not even mention a blued frame. Barrels are blued but I guess never were the frames.

As far as CC of cast iron frames, not sure from Layman's book. Maybe the early iron was plated and the the later cast steel would take a color case. He is not clear on that point.

Ballard history is so varied with all the different owners, plant locations, contracts, Models and custom items on Marlin models that it might be hard to say a Ballard never had this or always had that. Guns are still comming out of attics and books are being updated.

Got it ordered and I am looking forward to getting Dutcher's book.

LOL, out of the attics. That is literally where mine popped out of, neighbor who sold it to me said it had been thrown in the attic after his father died and left there for decades.

[John Taylor]

A customer brought in an early Marlin Ballard a while back and asked if it would cover his bill. It had aftermarket barrel and home made wood and the frame had been blued but it was a forged frame. His bill was $150, I had to bite my tong to keep from smiling from ear to ear. About a month later another customer came in with a Ballard to be relined. He made a comment that he was going to replace the stock and he did not like a crescent but plate. He gave me his old stock with butt plate. The new barrel is almost done, need to round up sights and a forearm.

[Hang Fire]

A customer brought in an early Marlin Ballard a while back and asked if it would cover his bill. It had aftermarket barrel and home made wood and the frame had been blued but it was a forged frame. His bill was $150, I had to bite my tong to keep from smiling from ear to ear. About a month later another customer came in with a Ballard to be relined. He made a comment that he was going to replace the stock and he did not like a crescent but plate. He gave me his old stock with butt plate. The new barrel is almost done, need to round up sights and a forearm.

That was a double good deal, if stock and rifle are now mated up, do you have pics?

The early Marlin Ballards are marked "JM Marlin", from 1882 on they were marked "Marlin Firearms Co" and IIR continued so until Marlin dropped Ballards from their line in 1892.

[John Taylor]

That was a double good deal, if stock and rifle are now mated up, do you have pics?

The early Marlin Ballards are marked "JM Marlin", from 1882 on they were marked "Marlin Firearms Co" and IIR continued so until Marlin dropped Ballards from their line in 1892.

Mine is a J M Marlin with a 4 digit S/N. I don't have the barrel finished so can't take a picture yet.

[Chill Wills]

This has been color cased but still has some pits that were too deep to remove. They do not show in the picture but can be seen when you hold the rifle.

[Hang Fire]

This has been color cased but still has some pits that were too deep to remove. They do not show in the picture but can be seen when you hold the rifle.

See that one has the pistol grip, looks good. What caliber is it in?

On mine the overall finish is running to brown so much, I am beginning to wonder if mine might not have got a blue job sometime back in time. But the JM Marlin receiver markings, SN on bottom front of receiver and bottom flat on barrel are still bold for such small lettering and numbers. No pits and it doesn't appear to have been sanded or polished, all edges that would have been factory sharp still are. It has a four digit (3XXX) SN but as I understand it there are no existing factory records. The JM Marlin lettering puts it before 1882, but would be nice to know when Marlin began chambering for 45-70.

[bydand]

My cast frame Marlin Ballard is colour cased.
Of course I bought it as just the action, and had a .22 rifle built on that. The company that built it did the colour casing.

[DHB]

My one cast action (#3 Gallery) is so "plum" it could have been anything originally.
I have a #2 and it is a cast action also. Mine was rebarreled, restocked, and color cased. Beautiful, beautiful piece!
DHB

[Hang Fire]

I have done quite a lot of online research and have found a great many of the blued barrels and CCH receivers turn a brown patina over the years.

Found this Marlin Ballard # 5 Pacific with SN 33594, that was auctioned and supposedly sold for bit over four grand. looks a bit rough, but bless the seller if he got that much for it.

Click the rifle thumbnail pic at link: http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/51/lid/1554


I will have to find out if all the Marlin Ballard #5 Pacifics had the straight actagon barrel flats at the receiver. My JM Marlin with SN 36XX has the tulip Barrel at the receiver.

The Marlin B:http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/Importbalard.jpg

My JM Marlin B: http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y92/TANSTAAFL-2/cid_66182A762673463D8A1D7384CE5EB66ARolandPC.png

[BrentD]

FWIW, my Ballard #5 has the octagons straight into the breech.

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~jessie/PPB/Antelope/Antelope%20doe%202%202010%20small.jpg

[Hang Fire]

[QUOTE=BrentD;1492888]FWIW, my Ballard #5 has the octagons straight into the breech.


Is it stamped JM Marlin, or Marlin Fiearms? (pre/post 1882)


that great pic could have been taken in late 1800s.

[BrentD]

Hangfire, I don't know. I'd have to look tonight. The only close up I have of the action is the right side.

[Hang Fire]

Hangfire, I don't know. I'd have to look tonight. The only close up I have of the action is the right side.

From what I can see after looking closer, it has the stepped receiver, if so it will be stamped Marlin Firearms Co. How many digits in the SN?

[BrentD]

SN? Don't know. But I'll find out.

[frnkeore]

Here are pictures of my three Ballards.

Top, Extremely early #2, JM w/ Brown lever & hammer and no rebate #49x

Middle, JM Pacific, full octagon to the frame, #10,3xx

Bottom, Marlin FIre Arms, #20,8xx

Only the Marlin looks like it could have had CC. I suppose the Pacific could have been re-cold blued.

Frank

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524edfd9bcb5da1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2905)

[Hang Fire]

Here are pictures of my three Ballards.

Top, Extremely early #2, JM w/ Brown lever & hammer and no rebate #49x

Middle, JM Pacific, full octagon to the frame, #10,3xx

Bottom, Marlin FIre Arms, #20,8xx

Only the Marlin looks like it could have had CC. I suppose the Pacific could have been re-cold blued.

Frank

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524edfd9bcb5da1.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2905)

Nice, very nice.

I was discussing finishes with marlinman93 (he is prety well the Ballard guru there) over at Marlin Collectors. He said customers could have ordered different finshes of choice. Some were even nickel or silver factory plated.

Didn't know the Pacific came with pistol grip stock. But I am learning to never say never when it comes to these Ballards.


Is that a Marbles or Lyman tang sight on the bottom one?

[frnkeore]

The sight is a Lyman #2.

The stock set is custom with a #6 schuetzen butt plate.

Here is a pic of the complete rifle.

Frank

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524edff67a81753.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2909)

[Hang Fire]

The sight is a Lyman #2.

The stock set is custom with a #6 schuetzen butt plate.

Here is a pic of the complete rifle.

Frank

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524edff67a81753.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2909)

Must be an old style Lyman #2. for the modern #2 hole spacing at 7/8" and will not work on the Marlin Ballard 1 1/8" spacing.

[frnkeore]

I'm sorry, it's not a #2. It's a #1a. Someone soldered the disk on it.

#1 is a model and means that it has a unthreaded hole with a smaller aperiture that flips down. The "a" means that it has a lock.
#2 means that it has a threaded hole and uses screw in aperitures, "a" again would mean that it has a lock.

I have three of these, two Stevens #2a's and the #1a on the Ballard.

Frank

[BrentD]

From what I can see after looking closer, it has the stepped receiver, if so it will be stamped Marlin Firearms Co. How many digits in the SN?

As you predicted, it has the Marlin Firearms Co. stamp and it has a 124xx serial number. A .45-70 with a very nice original tang sight, it has been my main hunting rifle for several years.

Anything you can tell me about its age, etc, would be appreciated.

Brent

[Hang Fire]

Anything you can tell me about its age, etc, would be appreciated.

Brent




I am finding the Ballard to be an enigma wrapped in mystery enclosed in conundrum. Serial numbers mean little as there are no factory (ies) records, JM Marlin's were made from 1875 until 1882, higher SN means later production and Marlin ceased making Ballards altogether in 1892. According to John Dutcher serial number 18100 was one of the last Ballards with the J.M. Marlin markings, serial numbers for the Marlin Ballards in the 36,000 range is the highest I have read about.