Bullet Mixture

[686]

i will ast this question another way. if the alow were FREE . to make a bullet alloy that will cast the best and work for hand guns up to 1000 fps max. what amount of ww-60/40-liontype-and lead would you use? and no water dip. thanks

[felix]

Just barely enough of the lino OR the 60/40 to make the WW cast good boolits. The larger calibers probably will need close to zero enhancement to make that happen. Just depends on your casting environment, including equipment. ... felix

[cbrick]

Felix is right, you won't need a hard alloy for handguns at 1,000 fps max. Too hard is worse than too soft.

Here are some recipes you can think over but if it were me I would just use the wheel weight with a little added tin. Add the tin to make alloy cast better filled out bullets, not as a hardener.

About 3/4 down the page is alloy recipes.


http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm (http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm)

Rick

[Bass Ackward]

686,

Sorry that you didn't like the answers you got last time. I think that you are preceeding from a false assumption, that one mix or hardness will always cover all situations if you limit velocity?

The success of a hardness or a mix can be based upon the pressure you want to run to attain that 1000 fps. With a GC and 4227, you can run pure lead and be OK. Now will pure lead be accurate in every situation? No, or everyone would be shooting it.

Bottom line is that some mixes are easier to work with than others based on your gun and your chosen bullet designs. What is going to drive the train for a lot of guys, is going to be what diameter you need to shoot successfully. What kind of molds you have, etc. Smaller bullet diameters are the dread of new casters.

The higher the antimoney and tin content, the larger the bullet diameter your mold will throw and the larger your bullet will size from springback. So while you may want the simplicity of WW, you may need to blend up just to get the proper diameter. How much is dependent on your mold, the temperature you cast at, etc.

So the best answer is that trial and error until you see what diameter your gun requires and then what you need to meet that requirement.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive even had good luck with 5050 ww/pure with 3 percent tin for up to 1000 fps

[cbrick]

686, it just dawned on me that you posted earlier (I think it was you) that this is for a 45 ACP in a 1911. The last thing you want or need is hard. I shoot 6 BHN lead HP from my 1911 and get no leading.

You don't need to make this so difficult, Just mix up a little of what you have, try Lloyd's 50/50 mix, should work fine. As time goes on and you become more experienced and cast for different calibers/pressures you will be glad that you didn't mix all of that lead together because you'll have flexibility with what you blend for different purposes.

Rick

[686]

wow not a simple mix. i was thinking of lyman #2 as guide line and knew it is harder than ww. just thought i needed to add something to ww for a good bullet. i always thought people used stright ww because is was simple to get and cheep. the chart you refered to list 2lb liontype to 5 lb ww as close to lyman #2. i have been using 2lb lion 10 lb ww 6 oz 60/40. was thinking of cutting back to 1 lb loin 10 lb ww 4 oz 60/40. i gather this may also be harder than you need for 750 fps 45 acp 200 gr swc. or 158 swc 38 spl. 800 fps. thanks again for every ones help.

[cohutt]

686, it just dawned on me that you posted earlier (I think it was you) that this is for a 45 ACP in a 1911. The last thing you want or need is hard. I shoot 6 BHN lead HP from my 1911 and get no leading.

Rick

Rick,

90/10 lead/lino should test out where? Under 7?

I'd like to hear more, what is your "six-mix"? (groan)


thanks-

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess the idea of most of the answers center on the fact that if you are only going to shoot 1000 fps stuff the harder mixes arent needed and there nice to hold on to for the higher velocity stuff. Lineotype is getting tough to find and i kick myself in the but all the time thinking of the thousands of pds of it that i sent into dirt banks casting it straight up for practice bullets just because i thought i would never run out. Well you will I PROMISE YOU WILL! I remember when i started my dad came over and i had about 500 lbs of wws smelted and we both laughed thinking i had a life time supply of lead under the bench. 500 lbs is about the minimum i use in one year now. Dont waste your lineotype or tin. There to valuable and pretty soon lineotype is going to be something in the bullet casters history books! and i wouldnt doubt if wws arent far behind. The bullet I used to cast out of staight lineotype are now 5050 ww/lyno and the bullets that were 50/50 are now #2 and as a few guys will tell you on here im a big advocate of hard bullets but find myself shooting wws and even softer alloy alot now just to use up pure lead that i dont have much use for (i can hear the black powder guys crying) Fact is you just dont need much hardness for 1000fps as a matter of fact if your gun has good tolarances your bullets are sized properly and you use a quality lube you can get away with pure.

[cbrick]

wow not a simple mix. i was thinking of lyman #2 as guide line and knew it is harder than ww. just thought i needed to add something to ww for a good bullet.

No, I use wheel weight alloy because it does almost everything I need. I do add a bit of tin for the castability. I use HT 18 BHN WW + tin in my max load long range revolver 357. Its a 190 gr bullet doing 1550 fps. Air cooled WW + about 2% tin will run about 11 BHN and is probably harder than you need for the ACP at 750 fps.


i always thought people used stright ww because is was simple to get and cheep. the chart you refered to list 2lb liontype to 5 lb ww as close to lyman #2.

I use wheel weight alloy because it works, if it didn't do what I want I would switch to something else that did. I suspect it wasn't a good move to direct you to the recipes page, you neither need nor want an alloy as hard as Lyman #2 for your current load.


i have been using 2lb lion 10 lb ww 6 oz 60/40. was thinking of cutting back to 1 lb loin 10 lb ww 4 oz 60/40. i gather this may also be harder than you need for 750 fps 45 acp 200 gr swc. or 158 swc 38 spl. 800 fps. thanks again for every ones help.

Lino is 5% tin so adding 6 ounces of 60/40 solder is kind of a waste. You mentioned in another post that you had straight lead and WW. Try Lloyd's 50/50 WW/lead + a little tin. Cast up some bullets with that, go to the range and see if your not a happy camper. For the very mild loads your using that alloy should work very well plus it will save the rest of your metals for other uses which they could well be needed.

Bullet fit in the firearm its to be fired in is more important than bullet BHN. You should take some of that pure lead, cast a couple of bullets with that and slug the bore. Size your bullets according to your groove diameter, about .001" to .0015" over groove diameter. Don't assume that because your shooting a 45 ACP that the groove diameter is.452", many are not. As an example my 30-30 groove diameter is .3095" - NOT .308".

Rick

[cbrick]

Rick, 90/10 lead/lino should test out where? Under 7?

Converting your 90# of lead to grains (7000 x 90) = 630,000 grains of lead.
Converting your 10# of lino to grains = 70,000 grains.

Lino is 12% Sb, 12% of 70,000 = 8,400 grains Sb.
Lino is 4% Sn, 4% of 70,000 = 2,800 grains Sn.

630,000 grains of lead and 70,000 grains of lino is 700,000 grains of alloy.

8,400 gr Sb = 1.2% of 700,000
2,800 gr Sn = .4% of 700,000

Your 90/10 alloy is 1.2% Sb - .4% Sn and 98.4% lead assuming your lead is pure and your lino is not degraded. Probably pretty soft, I have never tested this alloy but using a SWAG I would say 6 or 7 BHN.

Don't forget that when you add 12% Sb you are also adding 84% more lead, cuts it down significantly.


I'd like to hear more, what is your "six-mix"? (groan)
thanks-

I don't know if I have "six-mix". I am trying to figure out what a "six-mix" is. About 98% of my shooting is with wheel weight + tin heat treated. The vast majority of my shooting is long range handgun (silhouette) with max revolver loads and XP-100's over 2,000 fps. Approximately 110% of my shooting is with cast boolits (do they still make those brown things?).

Rick

BTW, thank God for the calculator.

[cohutt]

I don't know if I have "six-mix". I am trying to figure out what a "six-mix" is.
Rick

BTW, thank God for the calculator.

Using excel a good bit over the last 20 years i've gotten so that the regular old push button calculator seems tedious; I would have to stick to known formulas if i had to do it by hand though...

The "six-mix" i was referring to is the 6 bnh alloy for 45 you referenced up the page a bit.
BH

[686]

boy you casters are going to make me do a lot of testing now. i guess i will take a small pot about 5 lb, and make 5-10 different mixtures and see how they shoot. i want even think about how different powder load may be needed with different bullet alow. what is the mim time to wait from cast to size to shoot. going to the range to test is not a problum . i have a renge at my house. i think i may start with ww adding some lead and a little 60-40 and go up. thanks for all the help

[Bass Ackward]

i want even think about how different powder load may be needed with different bullet alow. what is the mim time to wait from cast to size to shoot.

If you use a lead tin mix, your bullets will be as hard as they are going to get right out of the mold. If you water drop any antimony mix with the intention of going hard, you need at least 24 hours and final hardness can be up to 3 or 4 weeks. With any air cooled mixes, two weeks is minimum to reach final hardness. But maybe you won't need that much hardness and can shoot either sooner than that. Most ACWW will be 7 to 8 BHN right out of the mold. 8 BHN is the hardness of 20-1 which was a very popular handgun mix before they started shooting antimony.

So how long, is based on what you need to use to get any larger diameter. But you should be able to shoot straight ACWW just fine for your purposes if you fit the bullet prpoerly.

[felix]

Only with the addition of antimony will the boolits grow in diameter. When maximum hardness is reached, the diameter will be at its greatest as well. ... felix

[cbrick]

The "six-mix" i was referring to is the 6 bhn alloy for 45 you referenced up the page a bit. BH

Oh, ok. Never heard it called that but the testing I did with the Lyman Devastaor 200 gr HP and SAECO # 068 200 gr SWC in the 1911 wasn't a mix. I tested three alloys with this bullet @ 800 fps fired into three feet deep water. One alloy was straight sick-on wheel weight + tin @ 6 BHN. The next alloy was # 9 chilled shot + tin @ 8 BHN. The third alloy was clip-on wheel weight + tin @ 11 BHN.

Here is the result of Stick-on WW HP @ 800 fps. Penetration was nil, the mushroom would have happened at the surface.

http://www.lasc.us/DSCN1661-10.jpg

Clip-on WW with SAECO # 068 200 gr SWC penetration was a different matter entirely. These bullets went through 3 feet of water and hit the steel plate on the bottom of the drum hard enough to do this.

http://www.lasc.us/Selection-999.jpg

Rick