asking for opinions on casting problem

[windrider919]

OK, I don't run into something new very often anymore but this problem has me stumped. So I'm asking here at BP cast bullets because I shoot mostly smokeless PP but it seems that the BP-PP guys might have more 'experience' in overall casting [On Smokeless its mostly new guys or guys that switched and are trying new stuff yet don't have the .... weight of experience behind them]

Problem - 460gr cast bullet with micro-grooves to hold patch as seen below -
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/100_1659.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/WindRider_PP-455-460-NP.jpg

I am having, for no explainable reason, incomplete fill in on one side of about HALF the bullets cast in this mould.

Points to know -
Alloy is the same, 5lb WW + 5lb pure lead + 1.75oz tin from .99 lead free 'solder' which has been my 'go-to' alloy for about 15 years, it the only one I make and use.

temp is the same , using a calibration checked Lyman thermometer, casting at 750 degrees Note: Use that temp because cooler temps did not fill mould and left wrinkles

Pot is a Lee 10 lb bottom pour with the nozzle opened up for greater flow for big bore bullets, re-regulated by PIC instead of factory regulator

Melt is fluxed with wax, then a covering of charcoal powder is poured in to keep air out...so pot does not require fluxing again til next addition of lead.

Casting procedure - when a pour is made I hold the mould over the pot and at the proper time cut the spru. It falls into the pot through the carbon dust (about 1/4" thick) and remelts. I do add alloy to the casting pot when it gets down to the 3/4 level from the pre-melting pot above the casting pot (an old Lee bottom pour mounted on a shelf above the casting pot with the base turned around and screwed down. It drains directly into the lower pot so I don't have to wait for the casting pot to reach casting temp again. Crushed charcoal powder caps this pot too. Occasionally I drop a pea sized wax pellet into each pot and stir to flux and keep the alloy mixed. I like a mostly full pot for the pressure of the stream of lead out the bottom nozzle, that why I fill at the 3/4 mark.

With this set-up, it is very seldom I get voids or under-fill shrinkage which I firs suspected but as you read, just can't be.

Mould is a brass one custom made

the 'bad spot' on the side of the bullet does NOT stay on the same place in the mould - it can appear on either block side or even under the casting line.

Mould blocks have been degreased by soaking in naphtha and again by acetone with a toothbrush scrub in both.

re-polished moulds by clamping blocks and spinning a cast bullet on a screw mandrel inside, used using 'std' Crest toothpaste as fine lapping compound...so its NOT a contaminated spot on the mould surface.

Note - this mould was made in early 2008 and has cast around 5000 bullets, with no problems. It has a fairly large fill hole in the spru plate for quicker fill vs the smaller holes on smaller caliber moulds
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I know from experience that casting big bore bullets takes slightly different procedures than smaller volume bullets. I run hotter to keep the mould hotter, just below frosting stage to better fill the mould grooves and corners. Big bullets seem to be more prone to voids if a cooler mould or an improper fill technique is used. So I graduated from holding the mould under the pot and letting a stream pour through the spru plate to, after opening up the pot nozzle, holding the mould nozzle tight against the spru plate and filling. Wait count of five with valve held OPEN to act a reservoir so any cooling sucks any needed lead from the hot pot. This technique gave me perfect fill and VERY consistent cast weights ....until now.

Now, the problem is almost unnoticeable in a freshly cast bullet, but my technique is to fill the grooves with wax as it gives a smoother patch on paper shrinkage and the wax seems to help throw off the patch when exiting the muzzle on firing....the centrifugal force throws the wax off and pushes the patch away too. Started doing this after 'dry' bullets did not perform as well as expected. Also, when rolling the patch, it gives a smoother patch that does not catch on the case mouth and tear a tiny bit like the 'ribbed' dry patches. This works better than spraying the un-patched bullets with dry lube prior to patching as per the NRA
experiments too.

So now, after waxing and pushing through a .453 Lee push through sizer die, you can see that the 'dimple because the wax in the microgrooves shows as wider grooves and a darker appearance because it is thicker. The crests of the microgroove is very consistant width, except in the dimple they become narrower and almost under the wax layer as the surface slopes down into the dimple. Note we are talking about a dimple less than 0.003 deep and 3/16" across.

I have tried to take pictures but the camera will not pick up the detail.

Now traditionally, having a dimple or under fill are on the side of the bullet would mean a contaminated spot on the mould surface...Or it would mean that a large void inside the bullet shrank and pulled material away from the mould wall. Well, the mould is VERY CLEAN and I have check for lead pot nozzle restriction or clogging, everything is fine with great flow. The mould has been held at different angles to check if it needed a change in fill orientation, no change. I even tried holding the mould an inch below the nozzle letting the lead stream flow untouched through the spru hole and by letting the lead stream hit the bevel in the spru plate to 'swirl' the lead in as some moulds in the past have liked...NOT any better results.

Weighted all 40 bullets, all the un-blimished ones are within 1 grain at 462.2 being the most common (461.9 to 462.8). The blemished ones weighed lighter ...the weight was 456.9 to 459.7 for the twenty

Shooting results - I did not like the cosmetic appearance but the proof is in the shooting. I have seen awful looking bullets shoot amazing groups so... I culled out the ones that had visible dimples after waxing and kept them separate for patching. I patched both the good bullets and dimpled bullets from the same casting batch/session on the same evening, 20 each. I use diluted Rooster Bullet Lube wax emulsion at 1/4 strength to wet my paper as FOR ME in MY rifle, it gives better groups (NOT going to discuss this, it WORKS even if it is not traditional). Use 100% cotton paper with two wraps , traditional trapezoid cut for diagonal ends. Paper patch folded over the base, not twisted tail as I use a 0.40 X .465 PE plastic wad under all my PP bullets, again, it is what MY rifle likes.

Waited a week then loaded and went shooting. I used my recoiling rifle rest and hydraulic trigger actuator to take the human element out of it. No pictures as I could not recover my targets because so many other shooters wanted a Hot range and I could not wait for the next Cold time due to being called away.

Shot a fouling shot from an other older batch, let the barrel cool down every shot of the first four groups. Then cleaned the barrel with Gunslick Foaming Cleaner, dried and lubed with Mil-tec on a patch, shot another fouling shot and proceeded with the next four groups.

Through the spotting scope, the unblemished bullets shot 5 shot groups smaller than 3/4 inch as seen on one inch grid paper. Actually might have measured more like 5/8ths if I had been able to actually measure. Note to self - Remember to NOT go to the range on a weekend ever again...remember how quiet and deserted it is M-F at 8AM!!!!! Anyway, good groups, more horizontal than vertical due to light cross wind I think. All four groups

The blemished bullets did NOT do so well, with the group size being inside a 2" X 2" box, but no flyers outside that. In comparison, all four groups were rounder/scattered and the cross wind horizontal stringing was barely noticeable due to scattering.

So the almost un-noticable blemish IS making an accuracy difference. Yah, I could cull them out but they are almost HALF of those cast...I must find the solution and fix this mystery problem.

I'm stumped...Anybody? Anybody? Bueller?

[Lead pot]

I will put some input in.

The first thing I will suggest to you is get a Lyman or RCBS ladle for those big bullets and use the bottom pour for bullets under 200 grains.
Your Alloy and temp is good. I would question a very large sprue hole and a fast pour pot or ladle.

Take a ladle full of your alloy, a Lyman or rcbs holds more then enough.
Turn your mould on it's side and mate the spigot of your ladle tight on the sprue plate and start your pour with the mould on it's side and slowly turn the mouls up while still pouring slowly and hold the spiggot on the plate for a 2 count and slowly lift that ladle while the alloy is still flowing, do this slow and the alloy will compact the alloy in the mould and you will get a very uniform weight bullet with a little practice. Your bullet should not vary in weight by more then 3/10's light to heavy.
It might take you a little while till you get consistent with your pour.
I use a very small hole on my sprue plate for even my 720 grain bullet I use for the 50.
The trick is getting your mould filled before the ladle is empty.
Starting the pour with the mould on it's side gets rid of most of the air trapped and the bullet will not have the gray frosted look on one side of the bullet that looks like a cob web.

[303Guy]

I've had that. For me the solution was to use what I call my hollow nose casting technique. What that does is fill the mold with a steady and accurately centred stream which fills the mold from the centre out. I still get ripples on the surface sometimes but at least those are concentric. I'm not sure this would help much on a sprue plate type mold. (Maybe if you have a lathe and can experiment a bit [smilie=1: ?) Not all alloys do this with my molds.

[montana_charlie]

You say you had cast many bullets (5000) before the problem occurred.
Since it is so prevalent (50% of your bullets) it can't be a random anomaly.

So, what factors have been subject to change?

Same mould, same pot, same temperature, and same alloy ... sort of.
Wheelweights are subject to change, I understand.

I also get my good bullets when casting with a dipper, so I would agree with Kurt.
But, I would also increase the amount of tin to at least three ounces per ten-pound pot.

Once you have your dipper, you might give this video some consideration.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiJikigdIow

CM

[windrider919]

While I agree with both Montana Charlie and Lead Pot that the ladle method works very well, having used it for years too...I just needed to be producing more bullets. I did not mention it but I generally have at least three moulds going, with the 'inactive' ones sittin on the upper pot on a cover plate, being swapped off one after the other.

And when I want to cast bullets for shooting over 300 yards I still DO use a custom ladle I machined that has so much volume it can cast a 1800 grain bullet (it actually holds 2000+ grains of molten lead!)

Tha 'Monster'
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/100_1710.jpg
real good for filling six ganger 45ACP moulds in one pass!

and while I was at it I took a pic of the mould in question (note- the bullets were out of the scrap box from when heating the mould up and are just displayed for perspective)
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/100_1709.jpg

But your helpful suggestions still do not answer the question of why a mould that has cast thousands of satisfactory bullets has gone bad in such a way.

[451 Pete]

I have to agree with the above statements about using a ladle for large bullet casting and " Lead Pots" description of his casting procedure is pretty much exactly like mine. It certainly does look like you have done your homework.
First off and for what it is worth I use as pure a lead for BPCS and long range muzzle loading rifle bullets as I can get. I know that this does change things a bit from what you are using. Most of my bullets are in the 530 to 560 grain weight range. I don't start casting until my 20 lb pot is up to about 825 degrees. This is checked with a thermocouple installed in the pot. The thermocouple will show temperature variation's to 1/10th of a degree. Don't put the spru"s back into the pot. I found that a single large spru will drop my 20 lb. pots temperature by almost a degree in temp. Variations in temperature will result in variations in bullet weight. If it was me I would try a sample batch cast from pure lead as I have outlined above and see if you still have the problems you are having. If then your mold fills out right the casting temperature was too low.

just my thoughts ... Pete

[geargnasher]

Am I correct to understand that the voids you have are due to collapse of an internal void, and appear only after the boolits have cooled?

If that's the case with a known-good mould, known-good alloy, and known-good operator :D I'd take a loupe and go over the vent lines very carefully, also check the sprue plate tension to see if somehow it's tighter than normal. Check anything that could be causing abnormally slow venting, even when pressure-casting. I quit pressure casting (with bottom pour pots) with the majority of my moulds a long time ago because the vent lines get clogged with "hairs", and often the "hairs" will slip out of the vent lines and get mashed between the blocks causing flashing and mould closure issues.

From all you have said, it sounds like it has to be a trapped air bubble, and the fix would be to discover why it keeps happening.

Gear

[RMulhern]

THREE MOULDS GOING!!

Horse Schitt Galore!! There's part of your problem right there!! There's a BIG DIFFERENCE betwixt pouring pistol bullets and bullets that weigh 500 grs. plus!! You have to keep the mould temp up and even though you may be working fast.....that won't work with pouring these big bullets! And I will also suggest getting a PAPER PATCH MOULD! Leadpots data to you is good....listen to him and apply what he's telling you and also 'ditch' the bottom pour gizmo you're using and go to a ladle as suggested! Trash lead is somewhat of a PITA in that you never know what's in the mix! If you want great cast bullets you may as well decide to put out some $$$$ from a reputable source such as John Walters, Moore, Oklahoma! I never have a problem with John's supply of lead to me concerning whether I want 1-16, 1-20, and lately 1-40; it all cast excellent bullets!

http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5195/5880866583_3a95c662ab_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/5880866583/)
Hotplate (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/5880866583/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

[MBTcustom]

I would like to humbly suggest that the problem has to be in the melt. Everybody has their own method for casting and yours hasn't changed and obviously you don't want to change your method at this time, for this one particular mold. However, you must concede that every time you throw in a new chunk of lead, you run the risk of contaminating your pot with zinc or other nastiness. and once the pot is contaminated, no amount of adding good lead to it is going to change that. Dump the freakin pot and start fresh, with alloy that comes from a different place than the last lead you chunked in there. Good luck!

[longbow]

I am in agreement with the comments about pouring method and venting.

- make sure the vent lines are clear
- make sure the sprue plate isn't too tight (maybe bevel top edges of mould blocks LIGHTLY)
- try using the swirl casting method of pouring into the sprue hole tangentially ~ don't plug the ladle spout into it like for pressure pour, leave it open

All easy stuff to try and that's where I would start.

I have had problems with venting that have given similar results to yours. I have found a couple of moulds had such smooth sprue plates and mould tops that they virtually sealed so adding a micro bevel to the top of the blocks helped with fill out.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Longbow

[Seth Hawkins]

Ummmm.... What's the purpose of all those little "micro grooves"? To hold the patch?

Are you trying to get the patch to stay on the bullet all the way to the target? If so, why? If not, could you explain the purpose those "micro grooves" serve, please?

Thanks.

[montana_charlie]

Ummmm.... What's the purpose of all those little "micro grooves"? To hold the patch?
Because windrider is 'visiting' from the smokeless paper patching forum, I think we made a silent pact to let him slide on the 'groove thing'.
A lot of the patchers over there use 'bumpy-sided' bullets.

Now, if you slip in to THAT forum and ask your question, you will get plenty of response ... without backing windrider into a corner in this thread.



I see that nobody else has seen fit to back my suggestion that windrider add more tin to his alloy.
My reasoning goes this way ...

Lyman #2 alloy is a known good metal for casting bullets. The tin content is 5%.
Our most widely used BPCR alloy is 20:1 lead/tin. That tin content is 5%.
Windrider has less than 2 ounces in his 10 lb. pot whereas 5% tin would be 8 ounces.

I think that bumping his content to (at least) three ounces is a fairly modest suggestion.

CM

[geargnasher]

MC, I wasn't there while he was casting, but it sounds like he's got internal voids, not inadequate fillout from temp, contamination, or lack of tin issues. Your advice sounds good to me, but not necessarily at solving the current problem.

Seth, the short version is that "slicks" can't stand the velocity and pressure that we smokeless-powder patchers put them throught. Beyond a certain point you actually NEED a few grooves in the boolit. Windrider explained exactly why and what he does with this particular boolit in the OP: "My technique is to fill the grooves with wax as it gives a smoother patch on paper shrinkage and the wax seems to help throw off the patch when exiting the muzzle on firing....the centrifugal force throws the wax off and pushes the patch away too. Started doing this after 'dry' bullets did not perform as well as expected. Also, when rolling the patch, it gives a smoother patch that does not catch on the case mouth and tear a tiny bit like the 'ribbed' dry patches. This works better than spraying the un-patched bullets with dry lube prior to patching as per the NRA
experiments too."

Gear

[Seth Hawkins]

Just how fast are you smokeless guys trying to push these things that you need to use a grooved bullet and wax to retain the patch?

[geargnasher]

Just how fast are you smokeless guys trying to push these things that you need to use a grooved bullet and wax to retain the patch?

One more and I promise I'll go back to my hole next door and quit hijacking Windrider's thread.

Essentially, smokeless PPCB can be fired at normal copper-jacketed bullet velocities, sometimes more, but usually in .25 to .35 caliber for the fast stuff. Pdawg Shooter patches for his .300 Win Mag at over 3K fps. It's a whole different game, and entirely different philosophy and mechanics than BP big-bores.

BTW I don't use wax to retain the patch, I wrap with a water-soaked patch and clean boolit. The patch shrinks when it dries and sucks down into the grooves, that's how it stays on. Thin coat of lube goes on top of the patch.

Gear

[felix]

BTW I don't use wax to retain the patch, I wrap with a water-soaked patch and clean boolit. The patch shrinks when it dries and sucks down into the grooves, that's how it stays on. Thin coat of lube goes on top of the patch. ... Gear

That is the correct way to patch. Use paper that will shrink into the grooves upon drying. ... felix

[Lead pot]

felix, gear.

Please explain to me why you need grooves and wet patches for the patch to stay on the bullets.
I read this quite a but on the smokeless forum and I would really like to know what I been missing for the last 55 some years shooting PP bullets.

[Dan Cash]

Lead Pot, Mt Charlie and Ray Mulhern have all given you good advice. Lead Pot's technique works for the big BPCR bullets. It works better if you have enough tin in the melt and works best when you have known alloy and keep the mould temp up. I use a nose pour mould and get best results casting with only one moould and moving right along. If I use two moulds, the bullet weight is all over the place, one mould, weight will not be more than +- 2 gr with 75% of a run dropping within .8 grain.

I have to ask, is your mould cut for two different bullets or is that an optical illusion?

[Seth Hawkins]

OK. I've got to ask.

Why?

Why are you guys trying to push a bullet that fast in a modern caliber (.300 Win Mag! Really!) with paper wrapped around it?

Haven't you guys heard of copper jacketed bullets?

I just don't understand the whole "paper patched smokeless powder" thing. What's the point?

[Seth Hawkins]

Just for the record....I'm not buying some of the BS being put out in this post!!

Just for the record - I can't understand why they are using paper patched bullets with smokeless powder in any caliber, but especially in the hot "magnum" calibers!

[RMulhern]

Seth

Because the younger guys think that a bullet has to have the speed in nanoseconds to be worth anything! With a smaller bullet dia they can push them faster!! There motto is SPEED is where it's at!!

[windrider919]

OK, I read everything and believe that post #7 from geargnasher might be correct as the mould blocks are only vented on one side and smooth on the other, plus, the vent grooves are very small and when I examined them under a magnifying glass today, have been filled up with trash and lead. They are so small it is not really visible from the necked eye so when I previously cleaned them they looked alright....At the time I did not look at them .... thats my story and I'm sticking to it. So this evening I took a scribe and straight edge and 'Leemented' both blocks. Also, I had recently lapped the spru plate because the cutting edge was starting to drag on the block top, and starting to cut a groove. I stoned it pretty good so that also might be a reason for not venting enough since I took out the faint tool marks that had been there...preventing it from venting there too. My guess is that he is right and I really don't know why I did not consider that ...senior moment I guess. So I will follow-up when I cast some but I feel confident you guys DID come up with the answer.

I have not cast any yet, later this week I will be doing that but I really think I did NOT have internal voids but instead was getting air trapped in the mould.

I see I got lota of questions to answer -

Why pushing so fast: well for years I shot 45-70 and then 45-90 and then 45-100 but wanted to have a big bore in a bolt action so that ment switching to the 458 Win Mag which is basically a 45-95. I shoot long range with my custom built rifle but also use it for 'all around rifle' too...see the pic of loads I've developed to make this flexible firearm. I shoot a lot at 1900FPS...but I also shoot at 2600FPS for very long range which is about my max ability to stand the recoil of a 460 grain bullet. the bullet was designed as a compromise over the recoil, the FPS and ballistics of the 500+ grainers.

http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/Some458WMloads002.jpg
458 loads with a 45-100 in comparison on the left. Note the shot load - Kind of proud of that one, got a lot of pheasant when working survey in NE Oregon/SE Washington with it, it's equivalent to the 410-3" with 3/4oz of shot....at less than 20 yards it does REAL well!!!

Why I have so little tin - I experimented and am adding only enough tin to make for good fill out but not for hardening. For PP I try to stay fairly close to 'pure lead' but for the tin as described. Note- when casting other bullets, I add more tin on a per pot basis.

When I make a batch of ingots I go to a marine shop / boatyard locally where they have a 500 lb pot for casting sailboat keels. I collect buckets of WW, melt them and clean the lead of clips, dross, and use a temp under zinc's MP so the steel and zinc ones can be removed (675F to 700F does it)...we then add an equal (to the amount of clean WW lead) amount of pure lead I buy there and that gets mixed in to dilute the antimony...the it's poured in 10lb ingots. When I start casting, I put the ingots in the TOP pot, let it melt, flux, add tin and drain to the BOTTOM pot...I immediately start a new batch in the TOP pot melting and go to casting using the bottom pot (when it reaches temp in a couple min.) As I cast and get between 3/4 and 2/3 down, I drain from the top pot to fill the bottom pot. When the top pot is empty, I re-fill and add tin and keep going.

Q on sprus - if they are a big spru they either stay in the bucket of water as I forgot to mention I always water quench. Or if they are the tiny stub from the way the pot nozzle fits into the spru plate conical hole, those I drop back into the pot...they are about BB size and I really don't think effect the pot temp too much...I then just lean over a bit and drop the bullets into the water bucket.

On the mould, yes, it is a dual mould, one cavity for the custom PP bullet and the other for a 350gr Trunc-cone Grease Groove, Gas Checked .459 bullet...Very nice for 45-70 n light plinker 458 loads and shoots super as Contender bullet for Silhouette. This is now my only feral hog hunting bullet too.....it does smashingly well [loaded to 1400 FPS] even if it is not a HP or high velocity.
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/100_1652.jpg
Note in this pic there are no gas checks, this bullet shoots well with or without them with small changes in alloy and speed so I keep those batches separate.



Was there a question on small bore PP?

How about these from my "22" PP mould I made -
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/22PPbullets_473SP_368SP_501RN_600RN.jpg

the mould...
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/221PPExpMould-Ver2-1.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/221PPExpmould-ver2.jpg
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll249/windrider919/SpruePlatefor22expmould007-Copy.jpg
Handle grooves no cut yet as I had not decided on Lymon or RCBS yet

[6.5 mike]

That's not 100% true Mulhern, I paper patch a number of old calibers, 30-40 Krag, 32-40, 38-55, & 45-70 to "normal" or slower speeds. I'm not looking for high velocities, but an accurate load. I also patch most of the standard calibers, 30-06, 7 & 8 m/m, 7.62x54, ect again looking for an accurate load. If I want speed, I'll get my 220 swift out.

I also do it because I enjoy the whole aspect of pp'ing, casting, wrapping, sizing if needed, & loading. The greatest pleasure is when it all comes together on paper or in the field.

Seth, while high velocities are apart of smokeless pp'ing, sometimes it's the only way to match a boolit to an odd size barrel without going to a custom mould. A 7 m/m 98 mauser was what started all of this for me. From there, it just kinda snowballed on me, [smilie=l:.

As I've said before, there is entirely to much good info on this thread to over look it just because of what powder type you use. If one does they are just short changing themselves, JMO.

[geargnasher]

I can't speak for everyone, but I patch .270 Winchester and .30-'06 up to factory copper-jacketed velocities for the same reason that copper-jacketed bullets exist, and for the same purposes. Not much point in having a .30-'06 if the limit of your cast boolit shooting is 2,000 fps, where the better efficiency of a smaller cartridge like the .30-30 makes much more sense. The effective hunting range would be about the same. But if you want to hunt deer-sized game at extended ranges with cast in these relatively small calibers and not give up a thing to the j-words with your home cast, high-velocity paper-jacketed boolits are the way to go. If you have not interest in it, fine. If you think those of us who do are crazy, fine, but I don't think any of us appreciate the snide remarks about it. My interest in BP has waned severely in the last few years, but you won't find me criticizing those of you who choose to use it.

Gear

[Reload3006]

I would suggest that if you were pouring good boolits in the past but not now ... Are the vent lines all clear? a mold that is not venting will cause that. other than that as every one is suggesting its pour rate.

[windrider919]

And I thank you all for your knowledge and willingness to help a fellow caster, I'm glad you DID help and sorry that old baggage got brought up. What is important to me is that we are all shooters and casters and when someone in our community needs help, it is offered. And like I said before, I posted here because the members have a recognized edge in their knowledge of casting over my regular hangout which IS full of nice guys but ones that are newbies or experimentalists...and perhaps the knowledge base is not as deep there as here. Honestly, I still acknowledge a lot of guys here are truly masters of your branch...Please don't reject us because we grew into a new branch/new direction....we're still the same thorny bush as you. :castmine:

FYI - I just could not stand it so fired up the pot this morning and cast a few...after the mould got warmed up the MOULD CAST'S GREAT AGAIN!!! Venting WAS the problem...I've been casting since I was 14 years old with my Dad and I am 57 now...yet sometimes it takes a different point of view to see a solution that for some reason hides from us. Problem solved!

Thank's to everyone who contributed.

[pdawg_shooter]

OK. I've got to ask.

Why?

Why are you guys trying to push a bullet that fast in a modern caliber (.300 Win Mag! Really!) with paper wrapped around it?

Haven't you guys heard of copper jacketed bullets?

I just don't understand the whole "paper patched smokeless powder" thing. What's the point?

It was a 300RUM not Win. and I did it to prove that a concentric bullet will shoot good at any rpm. I prefer grooved bullets to keep the patch from slipping and to hold a bit more lube. I load cast paper patched instead of jacket because it allows me to shoot much more, performs just as well on game and is FUN. All my 30cal and bigger get ONLY paper patched lead. My 2 45-70s and my .458 Win. have never seen a jacketed.

[geargnasher]

Sorry Pdawg, I had a premature senior moment, one of the reasons I try very hard to let people speak for themselves. Whether it was the RUM or WM, what you've done is impressive and blows away a lot of BS and primitive thinking about what can be done with cast boolits.

Windrider, I'm glad that fixed it, you explained everything you did and the back-story so well that proper venting or air purging seemed to be the only thing you overlooked.


Gear

[montana_charlie]

BTW, the "clique-ish" nature of this sub-forum sure seems to stand in opposition to the fundamental philosophy of this whole site, and that's pretty lousy the way I see it.

Gear
Your first post in this thread was plainly meant to be helpful. You stuck to the question and gave your best advice.

When Seth broached the 'why is it' subject I tried to hint that it would be a conversation best held on the other forum. But you wouldn't take the hint.

We are 'clique-ish' because we are old ... most of us. We are more interested in trying to perfect things we are confident in, and less inclined to put up with the hottest buzz about the new wave.

If you want to try things our way ... or come around with an honest question like windrider did ... you are welcome.

But if you prefer to shove our wheelchairs out on the porch, so you have room to run your roller blades, you are gonna get invited to depart from the rest home.

CM

[windrider919]

RMulhern and geargnasher

Please don't continue this...Let this drop....I asked for help from the ALL the casters, especially as I have explained, from the BP experts. We should be agreeing that there are more similarities between us than differences.

Please bury the hatchet.

P.S. - at least once a month I like to load 92 gr of FFFg in 15 or 20 cases reserved for BP and go shoot. With this load I put a PE wad over the powder to hold it in the UN-SIZED case. Then at the range, I insert a wax/grease saturated fiber wad and hand seat the PP bullet 1/10th inch til it bottoms out on the wad, and chamber it. A lot of reading the information passed on from other old BP shooters and quite a bit of personal experimentation lead to this load....I started out at 65gr and kept working up till the groups tightened up because I was actually looking for a mild but accurate load. Instead I got a powerful but pleasant to shoot and very accurate load that performs as a match load. And I could not have reached this height of achievement without standing on the shoulders of the giants before me.

So I have a foot in both worlds and wish everyone could see we all do in some way or the other.

My RESPECTS to you all!!!

[303Guy]

OK. I've got to ask.
I just don't understand the whole "paper patched smokeless powder" thing. What's the point?Seth, I would like the opportunity to try explain but I don't want to get into trouble here on this thread or forum. May I invite you over to 'our neck of the woods' for a visit? We do it for the enjoyment and to be able to get reasonable power with cast boolits in our small bores. I shoot 303 Brits as you will have guessed and that did start out life as a black powder gun (but not a paper patched gun). Three of my Lee Enfield have such large bores that they will not shoot copper jackets and one has such a rust damaged bore that it will only shoot paper patched boolits. I only want enough velocity and boolit weight to get the job done.

[waksupi]

In case a couple posters haven't figured it out, there is considerable overlap in technique, regardless of if it is smokeless or black powder. I suggest you have an attitude adjustment real soon.

[RMulhern]

Gear

I don't have a problem! I know exactly what I'm doing! We all started out here on one forum and I saw right quick that smokeless paper patchers weren't going to 'jive' with the old historical paper patchers so I requested a BLACK POWDER PAPER PATCHING FORUM....which we were granted. Now...in the beginning certain posters over on the original forum were asking questions regarding as to methods used and when one or two or several of the older guys whom have probably been shooting PP since before a few asking questions were born...they offered good advice and it wasn't taken! More than likely a reply would come back to the effect "Well...I'm not going to do it this way....I'm gonna go this route!" This....after the folks that know what the hell is going on with PP took the time to answer their questions!! Now....I don't give a fonk if the folks over on the SP forum stay wadded up until hell freezes over! Let 'em find out the hard way! I learned this game because I LISTENED TO WHAT I WAS TOLD by folks that have been doing it a while and generally THAT is the learning process! I don't venture over on the smokeless forum and frankly I don't need those guys coming over here asking questions about why their screwed up methods don't work!! This forum is Black Powder Paper Patching....NOT smokeless paper patching!

[Seth Hawkins]

Guys - I've got no problems with anyone, doing anything.

When I asked "Why?", it was because I genuinely couldn't understand what you folks were trying to accomplish. I honestly don't care what type of powder you use, or bullet, or paper.

The only thing that matters is that we are safe, and that we have fun.

[Nrut]

Guys - I've got no problems with anyone, doing anything.

When I asked "Why?", it was because I genuinely couldn't understand what you folks were trying to accomplish. I honestly don't care what type of powder you use, or bullet, or paper.

The only thing that matters is that we are safe, and that we have fun.
Seth,
I blame Paul A Matthews...
The bugger!..:twisted:

[Nrut]

Gear

I don't have a problem! I know exactly what I'm doing! We all started out here on one forum and I saw right quick that smokeless paper patchers weren't going to 'jive' with the old historical paper patchers so I requested a BLACK POWDER PAPER PATCHING FORUM....which we were granted. Now...in the beginning certain posters over on the original forum were asking questions regarding as to methods used and when one or two or several of the older guys whom have probably been shooting PP since before a few asking questions were born...they offered good advice and it wasn't taken! More than likely a reply would come back to the effect "Well...I'm not going to do it this way....I'm gonna go this route!" This....after the folks that know what the hell is going on with PP took the time to answer their questions!! Now....I don't give a fonk if the folks over on the SP forum stay wadded up until hell freezes over! Let 'em find out the hard way! I learned this game because I LISTENED TO WHAT I WAS TOLD by folks that have been doing it a while and generally THAT is the learning process! I don't venture over on the smokeless forum and frankly I don't need those guys coming over here asking questions about why their screwed up methods don't work!! This forum is Black Powder Paper Patching....NOT smokeless paper patching!
:violin::violin:[smilie=s:
I see you deleted a bunch of your posts on this thread...
You might want to read your Will Rogers tag line on the Shiloh forum before you cook off here next time..
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=141

hint..

[Lead pot]

Guys - I've got no problems with anyone, doing anything.

When I asked "Why?", it was because I genuinely couldn't understand what you folks were trying to accomplish. I honestly don't care what type of powder you use, or bullet, or paper.

The only thing that matters is that we are safe, and that we have fun.

The problem is some of the things posted from some patching the smaller diameter bullets and shooting smokeless powder I have read is very dangerous.
The smaller diameter bullets when they came around were cast and loaded naked with lube grooves ( now called GG) I have never seen the old bottle necked small diameter bullets patched. If some of you can show me that they were patched please tell me with proof.
The danger of some of the threads patching with smokeless is some of these guys are wrapping masking tape around a jacketed bullet and shooting it in some of the weaker action rifles or patching a GG bullet that is way over bore and deep seating it in a bottle neck case.
Those conditions will raise pressure spikes that will some day put a bolt from one of the old rifles right through there heads.
When you deep seat a especially a lead bullet in a short necked bottle neck case is like having a cork on the inside of the case holding back pressure as that bullet starts to obdurate in the case. Yes a bullet will obdurate using smokeless, not as violent as blk but it will.
The problem with some of the BS posted patching the modern smokeless cartridges will get some young person just starting to shoot killed someday. If you want to patch smokeless, use a proper diameter bullet and use a little common sense doing it.
This is all I'm going to say on this subject on this forum. Be safe not stupid.

LP.

[waksupi]

:violin::violin:[smilie=s:
I see you deleted a bunch of your posts on this thread...
You might want to read your Will Rogers tag line on the Shiloh forum before you cook off here next time..
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=141

hint..


I am the one that deleted the posts, and attention had better be paid to what I said. I don't mind giving people time off from the board.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I believe I can answer the question of "WHY" we shoot PP bullets differently and at different velocieties. I compare it to why some like Ford trucks against those likeing GMC or Chevy trucks. It is because we simply prefer to do what we like the most doing.Robert

[RMulhern]

:violin::violin:[smilie=s:
I see you deleted a bunch of your posts on this thread...
You might want to read your Will Rogers tag line on the Shiloh forum before you cook off here next time..
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=141

hint..

Nrut

Possibly your READING COMPREHENSION needs some work!![smilie=s::violin::violin: