A nice doe and a turning boolit

[44man]

I used the .44 with my hard, water dropped, 330 gr WLN boolit. 21 gr of 296. I have two ladder stands close together for archery so I can move depending on the trails the deer are using, they are 25, 30 yards apart. I put my friend in one yesterday morning and he spooked a deer. He went home without hunting the evening after I told him to hunt more.
Anyway I got in one last afternoon and could see the stand he was in. I heard all kinds of shooting all around so you know how it is, thinking I am in the wrong spot but soon two deer came in fast. I picked the large one and got the dot on her and shot. She piled up in less then 20 yards. I opened her and was surprised that the whole body cavity was full of blood, I hit right behind her shoulder and she was broadside to me. I rolled her over to find the boolit had exited near the back leg.
The stomach was not broken so the boolit had passed it before turning. The lungs were totaled with a 2" hole torn in them and I got some liver. Internal destruction was massive but no guts broken.
Now to see the fun part, I shot her less then 5 feet from the stand my friend was in, she walked right past it. I had to call him and rub it in of course! :drinks:
I can't explain a turning boolit like this, using a hard FP. No bone was hit. Maybe a rib is all but as always, the .44 works.

[subsonic]

As you might imagine, I've been researchin this. I'm begining to formulate a theory that when you have a long boolit that is just perfectly stabilized by the twist, when it hits bone it starts to loose stability and then all hell breaks loose. But I had one turn that didn't hit any bone.

Just a theory of course, but it might be worth dropping weight to "overstabilize" for hunting.

[white eagle]

why it looks as though it worked over stabilized or not
hunters seek results like Jim has .........
a deer hanging .....at least I do
nice deer btw

[TXGunNut]

Meat in the freezer, gut pile for the coyotes. All's good, right? I had a slowpoke 300 gr 45-70 enter a big hog (quartering away) on the left flank about the second or third rib from the bottom, deflect up, travel along the spine, down his right foreleg and lodge near his right front "wrist". I was trying for a straight-thru shot that would exit in front of his right shoulder after passing thru his heart. We had a light blood trail that ended when he jumped up and pushed me out of the way to run into a nearby creekbed. Next time we met he was waiting behind a tree to ambush me. Another 45-70 in his ear ended that party from less than 12' away. Guide said in all his years hunting with me he'd never seen me shoot that fast.[smilie=l:

Here's the bullet, as you can see it bounced off lots of things before it stopped...without stopping this hog.

[44man]

As you might imagine, I've been researchin this. I'm begining to formulate a theory that when you have a long boolit that is just perfectly stabilized by the twist, when it hits bone it starts to loose stability and then all hell breaks loose. But I had one turn that didn't hit any bone.

Just a theory of course, but it might be worth dropping weight to "overstabilize" for hunting.
Could be but it is a first for me. My friend had two LBT boolits turn last season.
I have shot many, many deer with my boolit.
Thinking back, I shot many deer with WFN boolits too and a few might have turned some and I blamed it on the deer's angle I did not see.
Maybe it can't be predicted at all.
Heavy boolits are not over stabilized, they barely reach velocity for stability. Lighter boolits might be worse.
Boolits do not appear to tumble as exit holes are just a round hole. They just turn.
I have a weird thought, let's think about it just for the heck of it.
Initial boolit contact makes the deer jump hard, the boolit is trying to go straight but the deer is going forward FAST. Maybe the deer is moving over the boolit. Contracting muscle might cause it---Hey, I don't know!
But shooting into all kinds of media has shown nothing but a straight boolit path.

[subsonic]

The part about overstabilizing is in regard to lowering boolit weight (increasing speed) to get it overstabilized to see if it helps with this. My deer didn't jump, only started walking faster. My exits were round also. Not a bad thought about the deer moving over the boolit, but she'd have to move *awfully* fast.

Most test media is homogenous, made of one material. Deer are not. What happens when you get one tire on ice and the other on pavement?

[TXGunNut]

Straight bullet path in media may prove that static media can't duplicate living tissue. A critter reacting faster than a bullet can leave the muzzle and exit its body may seem hard to believe but it's a plausable explanation for some "magic" hunting bullets.

[subsonic]

I know that poor follow through can move a bullet on a target. But I think that has more to do with forming a bad habit of relaxing or moving AS the firing takes place, or affecting how the gun recoils.

The boolit will beat it's own soundwaves to the deer if it's above about 1150fps for most standard conditions. Now there is the sound of the hammer falling that gets there slightly quiker, and it's not uncommon for deer to "jump the string" on a bow.

I just don't know how far a deer can move in that time frame. I'm not discounting it, but also not saying I support that theory either. Would like further data.

After seeing several "stick deflection" tests aimed at finding the best brush gun, I wonder if the twig we don't see is part of it?

I think the only answer is to hunt with round balls!:kidding::lovebooli

[44man]

I know that poor follow through can move a bullet on a target. But I think that has more to do with forming a bad habit of relaxing or moving AS the firing takes place, or affecting how the gun recoils.

The boolit will beat it's own soundwaves to the deer if it's above about 1150fps for most standard conditions. Now there is the sound of the hammer falling that gets there slightly quiker, and it's not uncommon for deer to "jump the string" on a bow.

I just don't know how far a deer can move in that time frame. I'm not discounting it, but also not saying I support that theory either. Would like further data.

After seeing several "stick deflection" tests aimed at finding the best brush gun, I wonder if the twig we don't see is part of it?

I think the only answer is to hunt with round balls!:kidding::lovebooli
Nope, nothing hit at all between a deer and you with ANY gun will go through straight except by luck. My deer were out in the clear, all of them are, I will not shoot through anything.
Now when I hit, the boolit is at the sights so it is not me but it is a boolit turning AFTER the initial impact. This is what I can't explain if it turns.
I am an archer and too many times I have hit the ground and the deer is gone before the arrow gets there to doubt a deer's reactions. Does a deer hit with a boolit move so fast it is going forward before boolit exit? There is no way to prove it. Please don't ask me! :lol: It was just a thought!

[MtGun44]

No way. At 1000 fps, that is about 1/1000th to pass through a deer broadside, assuming
around a foot thick. I cannot imagine a deer moving any significant amount in 1/2 of 1/1000th of a second.

Now -just to stir the pot and then RUN. . . . . .


Keith boolits don't turn. :bigsmyl2: :kidding:

Bill

[subsonic]

Prove it and explain why not, unless you're just messing around.
I'm all ears.

[9.3X62AL]

Internal ballistics is a hard science.

External ballistics is a hard science.

Terminal ballistics and bullet actions/behaviors during and after target contact are AT BEST poorly-understood art forms. Any prediction of bullet actions/behaviors within a target are like second marriages.......if successful, a triumph of hope over experience.

I do fervently hope that the Jello-Chilling Fackleristas stay low and keep dark for the life of this thread.

[waksupi]

When any projectile strikes an object, the angle of incidence will equal the angle of deflection. So, even flesh can deflect a projectile, and a bone will do it more so, because of unequal fracturing stress.

This gibberish brought to you from a vaguely remembered high school science class.

[44man]

I hauled the carcass down in the woods this morning and I looked at the hole in the ribs. Two ribs were shattered around the hole so I have to think the boolit just deflected same as hitting some twigs.
However, something I always think of is that with every deflecting boolit my friends and I have, they never deflect forward, only back through the guts.
Can anyone come up with an explanation?????? I really wish they would turn the other way! [smilie=l:
I guess my boolit training has failed, liberal arts has made them stupid! :bigsmyl2:

[mellonhead]

From what little testing I have done I have found the WFN easier to be steered off course than a 72-74% weplat on a SWC.

Toby

[subsonic]

From what little testing I have done I have found the WFN easier to be steered off course than a 72-74% weplat on a SWC.

Toby

I was looking at the boolits you sent me this morning. They have a similar meplat and similar nose length to both 44man's boolits and the lee I shot. Your nose length is right in the middle and meplat is a little more than 70%.

I guess I need to come up with a way to test using a simulated "ribcage". Maybe an old deer ribcage, or even a bunch of dowel rods would probably work in front of a tub full of "meat" - could be wet newsprint, gellatin, or maybe even water.

Hmm..

[44man]

From what little testing I have done I have found the WFN easier to be steered off course than a 72-74% weplat on a SWC.

Toby
Could be! My meplat is 79% with an 11* ogive to fit the forcing cone.
I don't use a semi wad cutter because I can't get any accuracy. The little shoulder does zero on game too, it touches nothing.
The Keith kills but if anyone can see a difference between boolits they are just comparing where an animal was hit.
The Keith is not immune to deflection either. I feel just a little damage on one side of the nose from a bone will turn it. Then glancing off is a turner too. It is better to center a branch or rib then to hit the side.
I will try to center a rib next time! :holysheep:holysheep[smilie=l:

[subsonic]

When any projectile strikes an object, the angle of incidence will equal the angle of deflection. So, even flesh can deflect a projectile, and a bone will do it more so, because of unequal fracturing stress.

This gibberish brought to you from a vaguely remembered high school science class.

True. The same reason they tell the cops to "shoot high" when shooting through a windsheild at a BG. The lower edge of the bullet hits the windsheild first and causes it to turn down because windsheilds generally lean away from the officer at the top when he's about to be run over.

[mellonhead]

I used milk jugs filled with water and no lids. I then stuck dowel rods down the jugs and shot for center. Most of the time my SWC's went straighter than the WFN. It may be a fluke in my nonscientific test but all the WFN's exited the side of one of the jugs. I didn't recover any WFN's but did get about half my SWC's.

Toby

[subsonic]

Mellonhead, how did you capture the boolits that you managed to recover?

[subsonic]

http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/products/hydrostatically-stabilised

Interesting find.

[mellonhead]

I found them in the jugs. I had about 12-15 of them lined up.

Toby

[376Steyr]

Maybe gyroscopic action? When a cylinder is spinning on one axis and moving in one direction, this creates a gyroscope effect, which exerts a force in an entirely different direction. This is why a bicycle stays upright while moving, but wants to fall over when stopped. I submit the spinning bullet hit a bone, turned sideways while still spinning, and suddenly the gyroscopic force overpowered the original forward velocity and sent the bullet in an unexpected direction.

[44man]

I used milk jugs filled with water and no lids. I then stuck dowel rods down the jugs and shot for center. Most of the time my SWC's went straighter than the WFN. It may be a fluke in my nonscientific test but all the WFN's exited the side of one of the jugs. I didn't recover any WFN's but did get about half my SWC's.

Toby
It is because the WFN hit sticks that the Keith never touched.

[pmer]

I wonder if when a boolit is spinning and moving forward, it must have a center axis and maybe it's own center of gravity. Maybe a WFN is more easily deflected when it hits a animal because its first edge is further out and away from its center mass. Compared to a keith boolit with its front driving band and possiblely smaller meplat.

I wonder if full wad cutters would deflect like WFNs.

And things happen pretty fast deer hunting too, maybe 44mans doe was slightly quatering giving aid to the boolits direction?

[44man]

I wonder if when a boolit is spinning and moving forward, it must have a center axis and maybe it's own center of gravity. Maybe a WFN is more easily deflected when it hits a animal because its first edge is further out and away from its center mass. Compared to a keith boolit with its front driving band and possiblely smaller meplat.

I wonder if full wad cutters would deflect like WFNs.

And things happen pretty fast deer hunting too, maybe 44mans doe was slightly quatering giving aid to the boolits direction?
I think you have something about contact farther from center of mass.
But no, the deer was almost a perfect broadside to me. The exit should not have been no more then 1 or 2" from entrance.
Yet it does not explain why EVERY deflection is to the guts no matter which way the deer is facing.
Since a deer is a million pounds of spring pressure held by a thread, cut the thread and just maybe that deflects the boolit enough to the rear.
Jugs of water??? A WFN tracked a straight path through 14, gallon jugs of water. Exit was on center at the exact angle I shot at. One stick could have changed that. One rib will too. My boolits have gone through 16" of wood, with the grain or cross grain without changing direction, many times. I have had small meplat 30-30 boolits turn 90* and come out the top of a log.
I don't think any animal on earth can uncoil like a whitetail.

[MtGun44]

ANY boolit will turn, pretty hard to predict. I was just funnin' Lot of folks get all wrapped
up in Keith vs LBT. Both are good designs. I have more experience with Keiths, but some
good results with LBT types, too. I agree with Al on this. Pretty hard to make much
real prediction on boolit behavior after impact. A lot drive straight, but some sure do not.

Bill