Big bores and strange things

[44man]

I shot another deer with the .500 JRH and another with the .475 but just creased the bottom of their chests. Way too much hair for a direct hit and almost no blood. The last I tracked for 150 yards and might have found 8 spots of blood, The largest was the size of the end of a pencil eraser. Both shots were at 50 yards, that's where the trail is.
I use a sling and pushed out against it to steady so I got to thinking about it. I went to my range and set up a bottle of water on an old aluminum pot. I used the same position I hunted with by pushing hard on the sling and found I hit 10" to 12" low. The sling is impeding recoil.
I eased up on it and hit center of the bottle, then I centered the pot.
So before I figure this out, I switched to the .44.

[subsonic]

I hate shooting pistols with a sling. If I couldn't shoot off-hand or off of a knee or tree (or even prone) I'd use some shooting sticks (watch the forward hand!) or one of those bog pod things like Larry Weishuhn loves. If he can hit something with them, they must be magic!

Here's a link to his contraption: http://www.boggear.com/testimonials.html

[44man]

I hate shooting pistols with a sling. If I couldn't shoot off-hand or off of a knee or tree (or even prone) I'd use some shooting sticks (watch the forward hand!) or one of those bog pod things like Larry Weishuhn loves. If he can hit something with them, they must be magic!

Here's a link to his contraption: http://www.boggear.com/testimonials.html
I use a sling for two reasons. I fall asleep in the tree and don't want to drop the gun! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
Then when I walk, the gun hangs at my hand. I just got carried away with forward tension.
I can't find a reason for sticks, etc, because deer come from all directions, no time to set or move sticks. The deer will be gone before you know it. Give the average time to shoot 30 seconds. You can't track moving deer with a bog pod or sticks.
Food plots or an animal feeding in one spot is different but my deer are always moving through.

[white eagle]

shot plenty of deer using sticks with a rifle
never a problem
just need to get used to their function and use

[44man]

shot plenty of deer using sticks with a rifle
never a problem
just need to get used to their function and use
Maybe standing but my fat butt is on a board or in a tree stand, I can't move and can hardly get up when I need to! :veryconfu
That means the sticks have to move, not me.

[subsonic]

:mrgreen::kidding:[smilie=l:Maybe getcha ona them hoverounds with a rest on it!:drinks:

[Matthew 25]

Good point on the sling. Adds light to why gripping changes will change POI, likely the effect on the recoil.
A little off topic...44man, have you seen a stopping/killing difference between the 475 and the 44 mag on deer?

[white eagle]

Maybe standing but my fat butt is on a board or in a tree stand, I can't move and can hardly get up when I need to! :veryconfu
That means the sticks have to move, not me.

a board I shudder at the thought
I make my stand at least 4' as much time as I spend in them the last thing I want is to be uncomfortable
sticks I use when hunting from the ground or in new territory away from my stands

[44man]

Good point on the sling. Adds light to why gripping changes will change POI, likely the effect on the recoil.
A little off topic...44man, have you seen a stopping/killing difference between the 475 and the 44 mag on deer?
Yes, deer hit with the .475 or .500 seem blind, they run into trees, etc. But in the end the deer hit with the .44 do not go any farther then one with the larger caliber. Internal damage is higher with the large bores but unless you hit the CNS, they still need to bleed out. Break shoulders and they still need to bleed out unless some CNS was hit.
A .44 can drop a deer in place without a kick but the place hit can be just a matter of inches from where the deer will make 20 or 30 yards.
The little doe I hit with the .500 JRH had every single thing inside turned to mush and she still made 20 yards. Heart, lungs, stomach, liver and some intestines were all mangled big time. Plus a smashed shoulder and a huge hole in the neck.
Standing deer shot with a scoped rifle from a rest can drop every one in place if hit in the same place. I can't do it off hand with a revolver.
It is EASIER to hit a deer with the .44 and it works, every time.

[subsonic]

I thougt it went "Colt.45 Works every time!"

[44man]

I thougt it went "Colt.45 Works every time!"
It does but not as fast as the .44. I shot many deer with the .45 and they live longer because the boolits are slower. I watch them walk, hang their heads, and finally go down. Reaction to the hits are different even if the hole is larger. Not the same energy. Only if you take the velocity of the .45 to the .44 mag will it work better but it is harder to do and maintain accuracy. Twist rates are different and the .45 can't go to the same pressures.

[gandydancer]

the 45 colt round in a ruger blackhawk or a 45 Casull revolver will do any think a 44 mag will do I have had my casull with a jacked 200 grain sierra doing 2040 FPS out of a 7.5"bbl and still way under the C.U.P. OF 61,000 FOR THAT HAND GUN. AND ONE SHOT KILLS on deer ande a one shot kill on a Buffalo at the triple U ranch in S D 44 mag is a great round make mine a 45 long colt handload anytime.. GD

[Larry Gibson]

Concur with 44man. You can also notice the difference in how quickly deer die between the 44 Special loaded to 1000 fps and the same bullet at 1400 fps from a 44 magnum. The 45 colt is slower is all. I do prefer the softer cast HPs that expand well in my magnum .357, .41 and .44s as they kill even quicker than the hard cast bullet. Probably not a lot quicker if any with well placed heart/lung shots but noticeably quicker if the heart/lung shot is marginally placed.

I imagine a .45 Casula with a 250 - 270 gr similar bullets in the 1400 fps range would do as well as the 44 magnum in the same velocity range. However, at the 850 - 1100 fps range the .45 Colt does not do as well as the .44 magnum.

Larry Gibson

BTW; this certainly is not to say the .45 Colt or the 44 Special won't kill deer effectively.

[44man]

the 45 colt round in a ruger blackhawk or a 45 Casull revolver will do any think a 44 mag will do I have had my casull with a jacked 200 grain sierra doing 2040 FPS out of a 7.5"bbl and still way under the C.U.P. OF 61,000 FOR THAT HAND GUN. AND ONE SHOT KILLS on deer ande a one shot kill on a Buffalo at the triple U ranch in S D 44 mag is a great round make mine a 45 long colt handload anytime.. GD
True but the standard .45 Colt Ruger has a 1 in 16" twist so over loading for more velocity ruins accuracy. The .454 has a slower rate so you can speed things up but if you go too fast with hard cast you have a "hole punch." The .454 works better with expanding bullets or .44 mag velocities with hard cast.
The .45 Colt at .44 mag velocities does work better but many guns can not support that.
A .45 Colt at around 1100 fps is second to a .44 at 1350 fps. Bigger still needs energy.

[Matthew 25]

Nice, I'm glad to see you write that. I was just wondering why cast would be better than an XTP in a fast moving .454. I don't think it would be. I think running cast that fast, say 1800 fps in a 454 isn't a whole lot more effective than cast in a 44 at 1350 fps (at iron sighted ranges). If you're going to go 1800fps in a 454 you might as well take advantage of an J-expander (even though it is sinful).

[44man]

Nice, I'm glad to see you write that. I was just wondering why cast would be better than an XTP in a fast moving .454. I don't think it would be. I think running cast that fast, say 1800 fps in a 454 isn't a whole lot more effective than cast in a 44 at 1350 fps (at iron sighted ranges). If you're going to go 1800fps in a 454 you might as well take advantage of an J-expander (even though it is sinful).
Running a very hard boolit to 1800 is actually LESS effective then the .44. Jacketed solves the velocity problem but a cast with a hard base and a soft nose will also work wonderful.
The .45 at 1100 fps will also work better with a boolit like that.
A softer boolit or boolit nose will work great for the whole range we shoot and the only reason I use a harder boolit is for the accuracy I get from them. That is why all of my guns run the same velocities except the 45-70 BFR. It is too fast at 1630 fps so it needs an expanding bullet, boolit.
Fooling with the alloy or nose can turn a high velocity boolit into total destruction of a deer or if too hard, just poke a hole.
Now if I took the .500 JRH to a soft hollow point, I might as well unzip the deer, turn it inside out and beat it to shreds with a sledge hammer! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
A big revolver can let you do away with a meat grinder if the wrong choice is made. A .300 mag is a ***** cat compared to the damage you can inflict.
The doe I shot in the neck with the JRH lost half the shoulder and it was a WD, WW boolit. It is just the wrong way to tenderize meat! [smilie=l:

[bearcove]

A hard boolit at 1800 of the 45 caliber is not to be scoffed at.

A lot the 45-70 loads I shoot are about that speed with with a hard 350-400gr boolit with a large meplat.

I know a 1200 -1500 vel will also work well.

Yes it is from a rifle but once its down range it doesn't matter where it came from. I just can't buy into the idea that a 44mag pistol is more effective than a 45-70 marlin with the mainstream hardcast wfn at 1800fps.

[Lloyd Smale]

you guys are arguing some pretty minor differnces. Ive shot quite a few deer with 44mags and specials 45 colts both colt level and ruger level, 454s 475s and 500 line. For the most part its tough to really see much differnce in the way a deer reacts to any of them. Where you put the bullet has alot more effect on how quickly the deer goes down then what gun your using. Now im talking deer sized game. When going up the scale to animals that weight say 500-1000 lbs then the bigger guns do shine. Bottom line on deer though is ive shot them behind the shoulder with a 44 spec and had them pile up and ive shot them with 500 linebaughs behind the shoulder and had them go 50-100 yards. Thats why you get the posters that get all defensive and say there gun does it best. They probably shot maybe 5 deer and thats just not enough of a sample to really see whats happening. Because one deer died on the spot doesn nessisarily make your gun a one shot stopper of game. In my opinion the two biggest factors are either bullet placement or the fact that every deer is not the same and each one reacts a bit differnt to being hit. not what gun and load your using.

[white eagle]

not all animals react the same when shot either
the end result is what we are after
go out and claim your trophy

[98Redline]

you guys are arguing some pretty minor differnces. Ive shot quite a few deer with 44mags and specials 45 colts both colt level and ruger level, 454s 475s and 500 line. For the most part its tough to really see much differnce in the way a deer reacts to any of them. Where you put the bullet has alot more effect on how quickly the deer goes down then what gun your using. Now im talking deer sized game. When going up the scale to animals that weight say 500-1000 lbs then the bigger guns do shine. Bottom line on deer though is ive shot them behind the shoulder with a 44 spec and had them pile up and ive shot them with 500 linebaughs behind the shoulder and had them go 50-100 yards. Thats why you get the posters that get all defensive and say there gun does it best. They probably shot maybe 5 deer and thats just not enough of a sample to really see whats happening. Because one deer died on the spot doesn nessisarily make your gun a one shot stopper of game. In my opinion the two biggest factors are either bullet placement or the fact that every deer is not the same and each one reacts a bit differnt to being hit. not what gun and load your using.

Amen!

[Reload3006]

aim for the points of their shoulders if they dont have front legs they cant run. a 22 will kill em dead enough. But I like the knock down of big bores.

[FN in MT]

I've used the .44 Spcl in an old pre M-24 loaded with 245 gr Keith slugs over 7.5 of Unique for SEVERAL whitetails...years back.

Then moved to a 6 1/2" M-29 and again the traditional Keith load of 22 of 2400 and the 245 gr slug. That killed quite a few deer.

Dozen years back I tried the .44 mag on elk and it worked fine...then the .45 Colt but out of a FA M-83 , 270 gr SWC at 1100 fps. That even worked fine on elk at 30-40 yds. NEVER found a slug on a broadside. Same for the .454 Cas in the FA 83 loaded with 325's at 1200 fps.

I just can NOT understand those of you using full power .475's and .500's as well as .454 Casulls on DEER and having issues with the performance. How big a hole do you guys need to make??

Shoot them in the HEART/LUNG are and they generally run a bit...bleed out and die. IF You want dead on the spot, bang.... flop performance...shoot a high velocity rifle.

PLACEMENT is EVERYTHING on any big game animal.

FN in MT