.45 Semi wadcutters

[Jammer Six]

Okay, back from the range.

I pulled some Berry's 185 SWC the other day, and finally got 30 of them loaded up, in three new test batches of ten each, and ran them through both my .45s today.

I'm bummed.

In the thirty rounds, I had four failure to return to batteries. This is a huge number.

I've gone THOUSANDS of rounds in both weapons before with no malfunctions.

I thought I knew how to reload SWCs, but perhaps I should review. I had them loaded so there's just a narrow 32nd of an inch (or so) between the case mouth and the shoulder. Gave me a COL of 1.138-1.153.

Hard to imagine making it shorter, it already seems awfully short to me, but making it longer means leaving more bullet exposed, which sort of defeats the purpose of a SWC, doesn't it?

Open fire, Gridley. You won't hurt my feelings.

Tell me what I did wrong.

[marvelshooter]

First thing I would do is load a few more and then try them in my chamber with the barrel out of the gun. They want to freely drop in until the back is just below the hood as felt with your fingertip. This usually requires a measurement of about .930 from the back of the case to the shoulder of the boolit. The OAL is less important and is usually just recorded for reference. The 1/32" of lead showing does sound about right but I would still start by chamber checking them.

[Mk42gunner]

It depends on the type of jam you had. SWC's in a 1911 can cause failure to feed due to being either to short or too long.

What magazines are you using? Some feed SWC better than others.

Robert

[Ronbo256]

Jammer Six, I'm not familiar exactly with the Berry 185gr profile, but lots of 1911's choke on the shorter nose SWC's. Oh I am also assuming you are shooting a 1911, but you could be shooting a Sig, Glock, or even a Hi-point in .45, I do need to know that. What you want to do is make the length from the case rim to the "shoulder" of the SWC no more than .947 long, this usually leaves .025 of the "bore riding diameter" of the bullet sticking above the case mouth. I sometimes shoot the Lee 200 grain TL SWC in my 1911 and it must be 1.180 +/- .005 to feed properly. I find the Wilson 47 mags feed this better than Chip Mc's or "GI feed lip" 7 rounder if you are shooting a 1911, the Wilson mags hold the cartridge .080 higher than the GI mags.

Added, yes the Berry's are the short nose like a H&G 130, I just looked on their website.

[Jammer Six]

Okay, I posted this post to two forums that have, I believe, two different pools of folks, and I made the same mistake in both posts.

It wasn't a failure to return to battery, it was a failure to feed. The new round wouldn't enter the chamber. After clearing, the same round always chambered and functioned fine.

I've never used a chamber to test a loaded round, I've always used a chamber gauge. All these round dropped into and out of a chamber gauge easily.

This is the second time someone has mentioned the barrel hood, and what interests me is this: aren't semi wadcutters loaded to a different standard than round nose? So, therefore, I thought that this wasn't an accurate test for semi wadcutters.

The magazines were both metalform standard mags. There used to be a guy on The High Road that went on and on about the dimple on the follower, and several years ago, a bunch of us got together and purchased several dozen of them. The two mags in question were from that batch.

Yes, this was in two 1911's. One is unmodified, the other is heavily modified. The jams were evenly split.

And finally, how in the world to you measure the distance from the case mouth to the shoulder of a seated round?

[btroj]

Use your barrel. If they freely drop into the chamber when the barrel is out of the gun then they will easily chamber when fed from the magazine.

My rule is to make the round as long as possible while keeping the head of the loaded round even with the end of the barrel hood when a loaded round is dropped into the barrel. This is with the barrel out of the gun.

Key is to use your barrel as the gauge, the gauge you have may not measure the same as your chamber.

[motorcycle_dan]

I disagree with making them longer. Short SWC should work. Shoulder of the SWC slightly longer than the case, So about 1/32" or 0.030. I have a special seater die that pushes on the shoulder rather than the nose. I use a seater without crimp then a separate stage for applying a 0.468 taper crimp with a Lee Factory crimp die.

You said Fail to feed. Like a 3 point jam? Brass touching the bolt face, feed ramp, and top of chamber? Or is it just not fully seating into the chamber?

Don't overlook the extractor and or extractor groove on the brass. Could be lots of things. What I do to prevent these is run all my brass through a Lee Bulge buster die. Sort of swages down any burrs that might be present on the case rim. Works for me.

[Ronbo256]

That guy on "The High Road" wouldn't be 1911tuner would it? The dimple is there to prevent the last round from squirting out from "inertia feed". Like I said, there are "ball" magazines and SWC magazines, if the feed lips spread out like a V towards the front, it's a "ball" or "GI" setup and may never feed SWC's well in your gun, the SWC type have roughly parallel feed lips and usually release the round a bit earlier to prevent the 3 point jam. Virgil Tripp makes a "hybrid" magazine that releases the round at an in between point. I suggest you research "3 point jam" on "The High Road" there is a lot of good info about this problem there, I've fought that problem myself trying to get TC bullets to feed in my first 1911.

Oh, some bullseye shooters suggest using the thickness of your thumbnail as a gauge of how much of the 0.451 diameter part of the SWC should stick above the case mouth.

[marvelshooter]

[QUOTE And finally, how in the world to you measure the distance from the case mouth to the shoulder of a seated round?[/QUOTE]

On most SWC's there is a very distinct full diameter shoulder that is very easy to catch a caliper blade on.
After rereading this I now realize you said how do you measure from the case mouth to the shoulder - not from the back of the case. For me it is another unimportant number because case lengths vary all over the place. The only reason I mentioned it in the first place is because when the back of case to shoulder length is right there is about 1/32" of shoulder showing. I say about because I never measure it. I glance at it and use it as a visual reference. If there is no shoulder or a lot showing something is wrong. Finally since I am in here editing I want to add that sometimes a barrel will just not feed SWC's reliably without some feed ramp work and sometimes not even then. Our beloved 1911 was designed to feed round nosed jacketed ball ammo.

[Jammer Six]

Yup, Tuner sounds right. We became fairly close, (with a continent between us, anyway) until he sent me a racist joke, and I blew him off. Right around the same time, I got into it with a moderator on The High Road named Art Eatman. He used (and then publicly defended its use) the word "wetback", and I haven't been back to The High Road, either. Not my kind of place, not my kind of people.

In light of what you guys have said, now I'm questioning my choice of Berry's-- one of the things I now see is that the shoulder of a Berry's plated SWC (in fact most of the edges) are not nice and crisp the way lead bullets are. I don't know why, if I had to guess, I'd say that it's because the plating process rounds them over somehow.

At any rate, that shoulder on most Berry's bullets are rounded, and it's quite difficult to hook a caliper blade on, and it would be ambiguous if you did.

So.

In the final evaluation here, the issues appear to be headspace and the round seating fully to the case mouth in the chamber.

The extreme solution, I suppose, would be to trim the cases to the trim to length, and then use bullets that have a shoulder that can be measured, and measure the length from the base to the shoulder.

As it happens, I can see the bottom of my box of Berry's, so maybe I'll try a different bullet, but Berry's are nice and cheap... [sob...]

The brass vs. the extractor is an interesting point. According to my records, this is a new headstamp, I've never used CBC brass before. Perhaps I'll try the same load with different brass.

[Ronbo256]

I frequent these 2 1911 sites, you can find expert 1911 'smiffs who have forgot more about 1911's than I will ever know, you might want to ask around there. http://forums.1911forum.com/index.php is a more general forum and you will get all kinds of advice, and http://www.1911pro.com/forum/index.php is mostly frequented by knowledgeable amateurs and pros like Chuck Rogers, Chuck Warner, Dave Berryhill, Jerry Keefer (he builds Camp Perry winning Bullseye guns)and Bob Rodgers. I trust the advice on the 1911pro forum a lot, there was recently a 34 page thread on hammers and sears.

[35remington]

I can't make any pronouncements about expected feed reliability in an overall sense with a 1911, and I know few who can.

The rounded shoulder on your SWC is of no great significance in feeding, as it is the nose of the bullet and the overall length of the cartridge that determines feeding reliability. The gun never "sees" the shoulder of the bullet in feeding.

185's are often problematic. This doesn't preclude feeding but it tends toward that the shorter the OAL, and you're short.

Further, even the straight lipped, SWC magazines with early release points may not feed the short or very rounds.

With this specific bullet and magazines, all you can do is load them to the OAL limit your chamber will accept and try again. If longer won't help, and the gun is otherwise reliable with this magazine and other ammunition, it's a good idea to stick with what works.

Not all bullets have to feed perfectly, and in fact many do not for some folks. This is hardly any great cross to bear, especially considering 1911's are know to prefer the longer OAL SWC's and roundnose/hollowpoint designs.

No biggie. Just do what you can do and don't lose any sleep over it. I bet Berry's has another bullet in their line that will feed just fine.

[Olevern]

If these are pulled bullets, it is very possible that the pulling process deformed the bullets as they are soft lead coated with a coating of plating.

Deformed bullets may be the problem, were there any visible signs of deformation? How did they seat?

[Jammer Six]

I didn't see any signs of deformation, and I looked at them all. They seat okay.

After sending 100 of them downrange, though, it looks to me like they're tumbling. That is, they don't make round holes, they make a hole with a tear, as if the bullet hit the target on its side.

[pergoman]

As simple as it seems, I've come to swear by the Lee factory crimp die. Proper use of this $15 tool has increased the reliability of all of my semi autos in every caliber. I will not load for an auto without it anymore.
One other thing that comes to mind is that your loads are too light. What velocity and spring weights are you running? These plated tips will behave very differently than cast ones even when everything is exactly the same. A lighter recoil spring or an additional tenth or two of powder may fix your problem.

[Jammer Six]

I'll have to investigate a heavier load-- I haven't measured either velocity or the spring, the spring is the stock spring.

At one time, I had a selection of springs, but that got real complicated; the bottom line is that there is no free lunch, changing the spring changes so many other things that I went back to the stock spring, and made the decision to adjust the loads to the gun, including the spring, rather than trying to adjust any part of the gun to the loads.

The Square Deal takes proprietary dies, I believe, and I'm not sure if the crimp die is proprietary, also. Do you know if the Lee factory die will run in a Square Deal?

And as a side note, I've always wondered why it's called a "factory" die. What factory?

[marvelshooter]

As you said the Square Deal only takes Square Deal dies and that does include the crimp die. I have never had any trouble with the crimp die in mine.
I think you might be limiting yourself by only using the stock recoil spring in your 1911. The most accurate load you come up with might be too light to cycle the gun or it might throw the cases 20 feet.

[TXGunNut]

I'm a big fan of the Dillon taper crip on all 45acp loads, kinda curious about your powder charge or velocity with the bullets tumbling.



Oh, some bullseye shooters suggest using the thickness of your thumbnail as a gauge of how much of the 0.451 diameter part of the SWC should stick above the case mouth. -Ronbo256


Agreed, also drop the round into the barrel for a chamber test with new boolits. I'd forgotten about those two methods until I bought the Lee 200gr TL mould. Was a bit embarassing but I haven't loaded a 45acp round in ages.

[Hammerhead]

I've had trouble with Berry's 185 SWC as well. Much better luck with the Rainier 200 SWC and the longer nose in a Sig and stock 1911.

[williamwaco]

One old guy's opinion:

Forget about the 185 SWC's.

Life is too short to fool with .45 ACP 185 gr SWC's.


I started trying to load them about 1970 and have tried several times since. I have never found a 1911 that will feed them. They simply will not feed reliably for me.

Get yourself a batch of the 200gr SWC's They work great.




.

[Jammer Six]

Huh.

Well, that matches my experience.

I agree about life being too short. All I want is nice, clean holes in the target, low recoil, and cheap boolits.

Then I'll sit by the fire, reload, and post to the internet by night, and shoot by day.

[arjacobson]

One old guy's opinion:

Forget about the 185 SWC's.

Life is too short to fool with .45 ACP 185 gr SWC's.


I started trying to load them about 1970 and have tried several times since. I have never found a 1911 that will feed them. They simply will not feed reliably for me.

Get yourself a batch of the 200gr SWC's They work great.




.
I agree 100%