.45 ACP reloading noob, CBs, lost of questions

[Single Six]

Colt Series 70. Lots of Green Dot. A little 700-x. I guess I'll buy different powders if I have to.

I wasn't sure if I should post a bunch of different threads or not...I didn't want to clutter up the forum, but it's liable to get confusing all in one thread...?

Basic Question : Why are cast loads so much lighter and less pressure than jacketed? How hard can I push them? The loads I find are much less than the 21,000 psi max, yet say do not exceed/MAX.....???



Goal 1 : 200 grain LRNFP 18-20 BNH - simulate recoil of factory 230 grain. I practice with my reloads and compete with factory. Why are cast loads so much lighter and less pressure than jacketed?


Goal 2: Run 160 and 180 LRNFP as fast and hard as possible, like +P for less drop at longer ranges, hopefully with some semblance of accuracy...mostly just for fun, but if I could simulate factory 230 with 180, that would be nice.

Goal 3: light target loads for my wife/a friend that aren't filthy. I know with low pressures/low charges, the case doesn't expand and seal well, and the powder doesn't always burn completely...what are solutions? Fast powders? Fillers? I read VihtaVuori N310 is supposed to be very fast and clean...but if I can poorboy it with Green Dot, I'd like to. What about seating the bullet, maybe something like a LSWC farther out to seal against the front of the chamber?

THANKS!

[Single Six]

Subscribed.

[35remington]

You can push the lead bullets as hard as jacketed, assuming the correct source of metal.

They're lower pressure because the source of the info loaded them to lower pressure. Don't "read into" it too much. In 45 ACP ball velocities can be had, or faster.

Green Dot will do fine, and burn cleanly.

So will 700X. Either are capable of standard velocities or a bit more. Have at it. Look online for source data. Alliant had more data for Green Dot before the merger with the other companies (Speer, et. al.) so look for a slightly older reloading manual, say five years old or older.

If you can't find it, others or myself can post it. Alliant's methodology was a little oddball, but the charge weights needed can be found.

[Single Six]

Thanks!

I've already dug around the internets and a couple basic powder books, Lee manual, but I'm continuing. Looks like I should keep digging and buy some paper manuals. (Recommendations?) Lyman stands out so far.

I did find this, which has been very informative...match your hardness to your pressure, and/or vice-versa.

http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm

[KYCaster]

Colt Series 70. Lots of Green Dot. A little 700-x. I guess I'll buy different powders if I have to.

I wasn't sure if I should post a bunch of different threads or not...I didn't want to clutter up the forum, but it's liable to get confusing all in one thread...?

Basic Question : Why are cast loads so much lighter and less pressure than jacketed? How hard can I push them? The loads I find are much less than the 21,000 psi max, yet say do not exceed/MAX.....???



Goal 1 : 200 grain LRNFP 18-20 BNH - simulate recoil of factory 230 grain. I practice with my reloads and compete with factory. Why are cast loads so much lighter and less pressure than jacketed?
What kind of competition? Why do you not want to compete with lead boolits?
If you want to simulate the recoil of a factory 230 gr. load you'll have to load a 230 gr. bullet. You can load other weights to equal the calculated recoil impulse of the 230 gr. loads, but because of the difference in the dwell time in the barrel, the loads will not feel the same. Recoil of the lighter, faster bullet will feel sharper and the heavier, slower bullet will feel softer.


Goal 2: Run 160 and 180 LRNFP as fast and hard as possible, like +P for less drop at longer ranges, hopefully with some semblance of accuracy...mostly just for fun, but if I could simulate factory 230 with 180, that would be nice.
Hornady's max load for a 185 gr. bullet runs 1100 fps. Compared to a 230 gr. at 920 fps, both zeroed at 25 yds., the fifty yd. drop will be one inch different. At 75 yds. the lighter bullet will hit ~3.5 in. higher. Using an IPSC metric target, a center hold will get you an A hit with either load. At 75 yds. you'd have to hold on the head/body junction with the lighter bullet and hold half way up the head with the heavier one. Not that much of a difference......BUT.......
.......it doesn't quite work like that in actual practice. Because of the different dwell time in the barrel, the different bullet weights will leave the muzzle at different points in the recoil cycle.
Bottom line is...you'll have to work out your hold at different ranges for each different load you use. AND, what works for you probably will not work the same for your wife.
Extend the range beyond 100 yds. and it all becomes a moot point anyway because your aiming point will be over the top of your target, regardless of your bullet weight and velocity.

Goal 3: light target loads for my wife/a friend that aren't filthy. I know with low pressures/low charges, the case doesn't expand and seal well, and the powder doesn't always burn completely TRUE ...what are solutions? Fast powders? YES Fillers? NO I read VihtaVuori N310 is supposed to be very fast and clean Right on both counts...so is Hodgden Clays. ...but if I can poorboy it with Green Dot, I'd like to. Compared to N310 and Clays, BD leaves lots soot and ash, and the lower the pressure, the dirtier it gets. (Others may disagree, but I'm not a big fan of BD.) What about seating the bullet, maybe something like a LSWC farther out to seal against the front of the chamber? Lots of discussion about that practice. It works for some, but can have some problems. It's not likely to have any substantial effect on the burning characteristics of the powder.

THANKS!

Good luck
Jerry


Edit to correct a faux pas.........

Single Six mentioned using Green Dot and my answer about combustion residue was based on my experience with Blue Dot.

At lower velocities, Green Dot should burn much cleaner than Blue Dot simply because at equal velocities, Green Dot will generate more pressure.

But....compared to VV N310 and Clays, the difference in residue will still be very noticeable.

Sorry for the confusion and thank you 35Remington for pointing out my error.

[myfriendis410]

Another phenomenon you are seeing in print is the simple fact that a lead bullet obdurates to the bore at lower pressures than jacketed, and assuming the slug is lubed (likely), you will see lower pressure and higher velocity with the lead slug over the jacketed. You can match military ball performance in velocity but will still see lower overall pressures given the same powder.

KYCaster is also correct about the point of impact tied to the recoil pulse. Generally; a heavier bullet will print higher than a lighter faster bullet due to the longer dwell time in the barrel. At combat handgun distances you won't see any appreciable difference assuming you have regulated the gun for whichever load you are using.

As a general rule; lead slugs deliver a higher velocity than jacketed given the same powder charge, and with lower (generally) pressure.

My 200 gr. handload using Unique is sighted to hit a standard replacement center with a 6 o'clock hold at 25 yards. I can (and did) shoot bowling pins at 100 yards with a center hold with that same load/sight setup. Beyond that it's going to be Kentucky windage......

[Single Six]

Jerry, thanks for the input.

Competition is a semiformal automated indoor IPSC/IDPA-ish kind of thing. Factory ammo required in the range, I practice off-range.

I calculated the recoil and with the 200@900, it's close enough for me. With the 200 at 7-800, it threw off my brain/finger/eye calibration for sight picture recovery for double taps ( 2 hits per target in competition).

Re: Bullet drop, I like to play around and 1-2-300 yards, Elmer Keith style. Hold the front sight at 6 O'clock, drop the rear sight for elevation so as not to obscure your target. Sit on your hiney, rest your back against something, wrists on knees. Keith put marks (gold wire) across the rear of the front sight for elevation. You'd be surprised what you can do. A man size target is in big trouble at 100, and 2 and 3 with some work. Some load 44 mag and shoot crazy stuff in the upper hundreds and even 1000 yards.

http://elmerkeithwasdeadright.blogspot.com/2009/03/i-dont-personally-know-anyone-who-ever.html

I had a .38 Super and liked the speed and lack of drop, but sold it, so the next best is fast, light .45. I also like the idea of fast, light, large caliber for stopping purposes.

[35remington]

KY, what's BD? Blue Dot? Do you mean Green Dot?

These "shotgun" powders are designed for pressures lower than nearly all pistol loads, and ballistic consistency is quite good at low pressures. As pressures increase, no downside occurs.

[tacklebury]

I personally use 6.5 gr Unique under a 200 gr. RNFP for an accurate little load in my .45 Witness Match. Shoots about 2" at 15 yards free standing. ;) Today, I was plinkin some and put a tin can out at 15 yards and took it right off a log off hand.

[KYCaster]

Jerry, thanks for the input.

Competition is a semiformal automated indoor IPSC/IDPA-ish kind of thing. Factory ammo required in the range, I practice off-range.
OK, that explains that.

I calculated the recoil and with the 200@900, it's close enough for me. With the 200 at 7-800, it threw off my brain/finger/eye calibration for sight picture recovery for double taps ( 2 hits per target in competition).
Felt recoil is a very subjective thing. Everybody has to figure out what they like best. A 200 gr. boolit at 850 fps makes USPSA major PF with a bit of wiggle room. It's a rare shooter who can tell the difference between that load and 200@900, but if that's what you like I'm not going to argue with you.
I've been shooting USPSA since the mid '80s....most of that time shooting 500+ rounds per week and at times loading more than 2000 rounds per week when my ex and my son were shooting with me. I've used every boolit weight and style available, from 155 gr. SWC to 265 RNFP and one thing I learned is, when loaded to equal PF, the boolit weight made no difference in my scores. That doesn't mean the same is true for you and I'll not take anyone to task for his choice of bullet.

Re: Bullet drop, I like to play around and 1-2-300 yards, Elmer Keith style. Hold the front sight at 6 O'clock, drop the rear sight for elevation so as not to obscure your target. Sit on your hiney, rest your back against something, wrists on knees. Keith put marks (gold wire) across the rear of the front sight for elevation. You'd be surprised what you can do. A man size target is in big trouble at 100, and 2 and 3 with some work. Some load 44 mag and shoot crazy stuff in the upper hundreds and even 1000 yards. Keith also talked about using an aiming point above and behind his target when the front sight wasn't modified for extend range...and no, I wouldn't be surprised at what is possible. I've lost too many dollar bills betting against somebody's "trick" shot [smilie=b: (and won a few ;-) ) to ever say anything is impossible.

http://elmerkeithwasdeadright.blogspot.com/2009/03/i-dont-personally-know-anyone-who-ever.html

I had a .38 Super and liked the speed and lack of drop, but sold it, so the next best is fast, light .45. I also like the idea of fast, light, large caliber for stopping purposes.

Lots of info here about loading for the 45, including several heated discussions about seating depth and head space...enough to keep you reading for a while.

Hope to see you on the range
Jerry

[Single Six]

Jerry, I mis-typed...I think the 200 needs to hit 1000 to appoximate recoil of 230@850.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

Thanks for your input...I'll continue my info mining.

[KYCaster]

KY, what's BD? Blue Dot? Do you mean Green Dot?

These "shotgun" powders are designed for pressures lower than nearly all pistol loads, and ballistic consistency is quite good at low pressures. As pressures increase, no downside occurs.


Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I edited my earlier post to correct my error.

Jerry

[Char-Gar]

Your handloading manual/book is your friend. Pay attention to it. Do not try to hot rod the 45 ACP round in the 1911.

[Single Six]

Lee manual

200gr Lead

GREEN DOT

4.3grains 805fps 9900 psi 1.190 OAL

I know I can go more, but can't find a load for more...so I don't know how much. Don't wanna hot rod, just run close to SAAMI max.

[35remington]

Well, if your bullet is a 200 SWC of the HG 68 pattern, and overall length approximates 1.250", five grains Green Dot will get you close to 900 fps.

[lylejb]

The loads I find are much less than the 21,000 psi max


just run close to SAAMI max

I think you're equating max pressure with max performance of the load, and that's not always true.

Think of SAMMI max pressure as a safety / mechanical standard for the cartridge / gun. It's not a performance standard for the load.

There's more variables to the performance of a load than just pressure. Time and distance the pressure curve acts upon the bullet are two that quickly come to mind.

Very fast powders, such as bullseye, red dot, and 700x may hit their peak (max) pressures as the bullet leaves the case. Yes, the bullet has travelled very little in the rifling and the pressure has already peaked.

Slower powders may not reach peak pressure untill the bullet has traveled several inches down the barrel.

This time vs. pressure rise is called pressure curve.

A slower rise, that acts on the bullet for a longer time can give a higher velocity, even if it's at a lower pressure.

What your seeking is performance of the load, and if you can get that without max pressure, why not go with it?

If you can work up a load that does what you want, and is within safe pressures, don't worry about it not being at SAMMI max.

[Single Six]

lyle,

I guess I should have said close to SAAMI with as much velocity as I can get, or as fast as possible without exceeding SAAMI.

I don't care for the slow, light, target loads I find for Green Dot. I want to launch a bullet slightly lighter than factory 230 slightly faster than factory 230. I'd also light to launch smaller bullets faster, as fast as is safe, mostly for the fun of it.

The bullets I have are

Bhn 18. (18 x 1,422)=25,596psi

I'd like to at least get close.

[Single Six]

Well, if your bullet is a 200 SWC of the HG 68 pattern, and overall length approximates 1.250", five grains Green Dot will get you close to 900 fps.

Thanks, 35rem


I found one reference to a max of 6.4 grains of GD for 200

http://stevespages.com/451p_1_200.html (pretty skinny on details, I know)

He also lists Green Dot From 4.9 grains to 6.1 grains for 230.

Found this thread, guy with a similar goal to mine, where I found this


.45ACP 200 gr LSWC + 5.5 gr Green Dot = 880 fps in 5" Briley barrel.
This is below Lyman's maximum.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-171398.html

I can't remember where I found this


Speer reloading Manual #9 lists Green dot under a 200 gr lead bullet .
CCI-300 primer
5.0 grs. for 833 f/s
4.6 grs. for 729 f/s
No pressure data however this is the data for a 200 gr Jacketed HP
6.0 grs. for 957 f/s
5.6 grs. for 896 f/s
I BELIEVE THE VERY SOFT SWAGED SPEER BULLET IS THE REASON FOR LOWER LOAD NOT PRESSURE.

Lee Jacketed 200 calls for 5.9 grains 915fps 18900 PSI 1.175"

We go into low 900fps with 6.0 grains of GD over a chrono.

Other loads in the book with similar powders pushing 200 lead to 900 are ~ 17,000-19,000 PSI

Everything I read about GD is that it's a soft, slow, safe powder, not jumpy, high-strung, or finicky like BD can be.

Felt recoil is less than 230 factory hardball, but not a powder puff load, no pressure signs, matter of fact, while inspecting brass, the hardball primers are flatter than the 200s I loaded.

COAL is about 1.185".

Sound cool?

[35remington]

Sounds cool, but how fast the bullet will go depends upon a lot, like seating depth. Not all 200's get the same speed with the same powder charge, but I'm sure you already know that.

Green Dot will work for what you envision because I'm also a trap shooter myself, and have used it in the 45 ACP for just that.

It's needed a few to several tenths grain more to equal the velocities of Red Dot with the same bullets.

Start at 5.0 and adjust as needed to get where you want to go.

[Single Six]

Came across MidwayUSA's LoadMap

http://www.4shared.com/document/03rRqXMj/MidwayUsa_LoadMap_45ACP.html

Very helpful, really like the format, many powders tested up to 21000 psi with many bullets, but no Green Dot with a lead 200...

[vmthtr]

I used some GD this weekend and shot 350 rounds. In my Commander size it had some snap but in my Dads Fullsize it was a nice load. 200g Hornady C/T and 5.5g of GD. Gonna drop down to 5.2 and try again. Wish I would have chronied them. They were accurate though.

[Single Six]

I personally use 6.5 gr Unique under a 200 gr. RNFP for an accurate little load in my .45 Witness Match. Shoots about 2" at 15 yards free standing. ;) Today, I was plinkin some and put a tin can out at 15 yards and took it right off a log off hand.

Any idea what you got for pressure and/or velocity?

Thanks