WC 820 in 358 Win. ??

[Ron.D]

Being from Canada, I've always looked with envy at you guys that get to buy surplus powders at a fraction of the cost. This yrs. winter vacation took us through Louisianna and Miss. and so I thought I'd do a minor detour on the way home and pick some up. Bartlett was only an hour out of the way coming home. (A heck of a decent fellow to deal with, I might add.) Heck, that way I'd even save hazmat and shipping. Well, along with some almost 3031 and some sr4759 clone, I bought 2 jugs of WC820 and certainly have a use for it. 45-70, 43 mauser, 303 etc. but I'm wondering how far I can push this. I've read most of what Maven and others have written on it. I gather that in a bottle neck case, you need to take things easy, but with cases like 45-70, you can open the throttle considerably. I'd love to be able to reach at least 1900'/s with the 200 gr. rcbs boolit but wonder if it may be a bit too much to hope for. I hear of guys reaching 1700'/s in a 30-30 with a boolit in the 190 gr. area, so I'm thinking that with the faster expansion ratio and the larger case capacity and a boolit that's lighter for diameter, what I'd like to achive may be doable. Weather and work keeps any work on this load at least a month away. If I could reach 1900-1950 with this powder and with the small amounts required, even if it became my go to powder, it'd last the rest of my life. Anyone experimented in this neighbourhood before? I'd appreciate your input, also from anyone such as Maven, Buckshot etc. that may have an intelligent opine on the subject. Thanks. Ron.D

[Maven]

Ron,

Sorry to say that I haven't used WC 820 in anything larger than the .45-70 and only wimpy loads at that (16-18gr. wi. 345 -> 460gr. CB's). Although I didn't chronograph them (too lazy), they were accurate and showed no signs of pressure at all. Recoil was tolerable, except when the lever bow smacked my fingers with the 460gr. CB.

As for the .358Win.*, I suppose you can try light charges of 820 at first if you are willing to chronograph them (minimum of 15 shots) andd then compare the means, ES's and SD's. What you're looking for is consistency and significant differences with respect to statistics** and pressure signs with respect to your safety. Since the .358Win. cartridge looks like a necked up 8 x 57mm Mau. cartridge, and since I use 820 in the 8 x 57mm wi. 195-235gr. CB's, I think you can try 17gr. (standard LR primer) to start and then carefully work up. However, I don't know whether you'll be able to reach 1,900-1,950fps without pressure signs. In truth, I haven't tried more than 22gr. in either my 8mm or .30cal. rifles (metrics included), all with heavy CB's.

If you do try WC 820, let me (or the CB Board) know how you fare.

Hope this helps!

Paul


*Lyman's CB Handbook & 48th Reloading Handbook gave no useful info. for a powder similar to WC 820/AA #9. However, the burning rate chart in the latter book says AA #9 is slightly slower than 2400.

**The NRA's 1981 publication "Handloading" by Wm. C. Davis, Jr. has an excellent chapter on statistics for the handloader. In fact, it is worth the price of the book (available from used book dealers?).

[lar45]

I haven't tried any loads like this so I don't know how they will do.
I also wonder if you might run into problems with the case filled around 50% like happens with the gun blow ups looking for light loads. So if the load was around 50% capacity, would you need some filler or dacron to keep the powder at the base of the case?
I adjusted a powder profile in Quickload so that it gives me the velocities from shooting WC820 in my guns. So this is not an actual powder profile and may be complete garbage. You have to decide before you shoot them. Quickload does have AA9 now and it is similar to my WC820 powder profile.

With all that said, I put in, 358win 22" bbl 200gn cast loaded to 2.4"
**Not Load Data**
WC820
15 gns 1284fps @ 8.3ksi 35% load density
20 gns 1653fps @ 15.2ksi 47%
25 gns 1986fps @ 25.3ksi 59%
26 gns 2047fps @ 27.8ksi 61%
27 gns 2107fps @ 30.4ksi 64%
30 gns 2277fps @ 40ksi 71%
33 gns 2437fps @ 50.5ksi 78%
35 gns 2540fps @ 59ksi 83%

AA #9
25 gns 2050fps @ 35.3ksi 56%
**Not Load Data**

So it looks like you should be able to get around 2000 fps with reasonable pressures, but it's just over the 50% load density mark. I don't know if you would run into problems with it. Or maybe Squib loads?
I've had problems with WC680 not lighting off with heavy loads and switched to a Fed 215 primer. That was in a 45-70 BFR Revolver.

I have used light loads of 10-15gns WC820 in a 30-30 and 30-06 with very good results.

Anybody else have any thoughts on if it would be safe?

[Ricochet]

Glenn, have you got any QuickLoad data on WC680 in the .45-70? I've loaded that under boolits of 325 and 340 grains with no data except knowing that it's slower than 2400 and seems to be fairly close to 4198 in the 7.62x39, so stayed in the load range between those and didn't push the velocity. Around 35 grains with a magnum primer and tuft of Dacron shoots well with velocities in the 1550 FPS range with my 340 grain (in wheelweights) #457122HP, and seems safe in my Marlin. But I would be curious about what Quickload predicts. Probably doesn't really need the Dacron as that's about 2/3 full.

[lar45]

Quickload does have AA1680 which I'm assumeing is close to WC680. I put in the Lee 340 loaded to 2.55" with 35gns AA1680 and got back 1470fps @ 14ksi with a 22" bbl. It's not 100% accurate on all things, but 80fps difference is a pretty close estimation. I've used it in my 45-70 BFR 10" and got 405s up around 1750fps. I started getting squibs and changed to the Fed 215 primer which gave no more problems. I didn't try any dacron in my loads, but probably should have. The load was probably up around 45k +
I have a lb of 4759 that I'm going to try next.

[JDL]

I have used WC-820 in my .358 with 358156 boolits and compaired it to 2400. With 17gr./2400, velocity was 1654 with spread running 100 fps.
17gr./820 produced 1672 fps and a spread of 114 fps.
Accuracy was compairable at 100 yards at less than 1.5". -JDL

[Ricochet]

Thanks, Glenn!

[Ron.D]

Sorry to be so long responding guys. Thanks a lot for the excellent input. It really gives me a place to start and a goal.
Maven, I'll try your 17 gr. suggestion as a starting point and go from there.I noticed in one of your posts that you lift the muzzle before firing. As this will be a potential hunting load, I'll start by doing it as well, however as the load warms up and the pressure should make ignition more positive, I'm hoping that it won't be neccessary. Some who have used it in the 45-70 suggest it wasn't neccessary for them, even with lighter loads. I think I'll start with WLR primers to give a positive start without going to magnum primers, but I will if need be. I do have a chronograph, so should be able to spot ignition problems by keeping tabs on ES and SD, while watching for pressure signs and leading.
Lar45 Thanks for looking up that info for me. While keeping in mind that this is paper info and not load data it'll go a long way to giving me some guidelines. If in fact I could safely reach the 25-26 gr. area with accuracy and no leading, I'd be one happy camper. Easily an excellent 150yd. deer and blackbear load.
Re: the squib loads. Although WC820 is a ball powder, all the accounts I've read lead me to believe it doesn't act like slower ones. ie. reports of it's use in 45-70 down to 1100'/s with no fillers.
JDL Thanks for your input. Did you use a filler, or do you raise the muzzle before firing. I'd also be interested hearing what primer you used.
Thanks again fellas. As I said in my original post, it'll be about a month before I do this load work, but I will be back and post some results when I feel I have something resembling success or at least of interest. Ron.D

[JDL]

Ron, No filler was used and the primer was CCI 200 large rifle. -JDL

[Dale53]

RonD;
Let me make a suggestion... Win 296 is a ball powder and the makers specifically warn you about using reduced loads of this powder. It is a similar burning rate as WC 820. It is not the same powder, but has similar characteristics.

So, that gives me a bit of pause in considering this powder in this particular context. It's original use was by the military for full loads in the .30 Carbine at about 40,000 psi. It DOES work well as a full load in .357 magnum and .44 magnum.

Since WC 820 is practically the same as Accurate Arms #9 (just a non-canister lot) why don't you call up Accurate Arms and tell them you have a bunch of #9 and how you want to use it. Then, I would follow their advice.

Sometimes, the price of something kind of "turns our head" and we are wont to try something we shouldn't.

All you are out is the price of a phone call.

Dale53

[Marlin Junky]

I've burned a lot of 820 in the 30-30 with 195 to 197 grain boolits in 15.5 to 16.5 grain doses and I've been really happy with the results.

Since the .358 has about 27% more capacity than the 30-30, I'd say about 20 grains under a 200 grain .358 should be OK and will probably produce over 1600 fps. You can work up from there but don't forget to use your chronograph to spot anomalies.

MJ

[Ricochet]

Re the warning about not reducing 296 loads: George Frost, in his book Ammunition Making, says that Winchester dropped 295 (the original Ball powder they used for loading .44 Magnum at the factory) because of squibs and stuck bullets in very cold weather. They switched to the slightly faster burning 296 and the problem was solved. I think the previously experienced squibs and barrel obstructions with 295 were the hazardous condition they were warning against, not a reduced charge explosion effect.

[ace1001]

820 is double based and can detonate with light loads. Does anyone know what would be toolight in 45 Colt behind 250gr boolit? Something less than 16gr I think. How much less? Ace

[Maven]

ace101, et al, Red Dot and 2400 are also double-base powders, yet C.E. Harris recommended 13gr. & 16gr., respectively, as "universal" .30cal. loads with CB's. This prompts me to ask whether anyone can provide empirical evidence, not hearsay, that WC 820, Red Dot, or 2400 has actually "detonated" with small charges, say 13gr. to 20gr., in large capacity cases?* If you can reference such data, would you be kind enough to post it or a link to it here? Thanks in advance!


*I've used 14gr. WC 820 in the .243Win. with ~87gr. CB's for years with no problems at all. In the 6.5 x 55mm Swe. Mau. a larger case, I use 14.9gr. with a ~133gr. and ~145gr. CB and likewise haven't had so much as a hint of trouble.

[felix]

I have only heard, or read, or dreampt, about some lots of H110 going bananas with reduced loads in the 32 miller short (357 case necked down). However, these loads had zero neck tension on the boolits because these boolits were inserted before hand into the chamber, followed by loaded and maybe "plugged" cases of sorts. Just don't remember too much, but it was definitely H110 with a BR primer, probably CCI. I think I would have remembered RP because that is what I typically shoot. ... felix

[Marlin Junky]

I burned some 820 in the 30-30 again today (I need to stock up on this stuff) and as usual 17 grains behind a 198 grain boolit produced single digit Std.Devs. (6.9 Std.Dev. for 15 rounds) This is getting monotonous so I have selected this as my match load to be used on chickens, pigs and turkeys. I may back off to 16.5 grains when ambient starts pushing 100F but I'd be very surprised if this load exceeds 40K PSI.

For reference sake: The 30-30 has an average case capacity of 45 grains of water and the S.D. of this boolit is approximately .296 at .309" (which is the diameter as it's launched from my 336).

MJ

[Ron.D]

Finally got around to doing some load workup on this round. When you work 3000 mi. from home 8 mos. a yr. you don't get much range time.
I was using the RCBS 358 200 gr. boolit with WLR primers. I started @ 17 grs. of WC820 and worked up from there. 20 grs. started looking good, with tightening groups and low E.S. By the time I got much over 22 grs. things peaked. 22.6 grs. gave me a M.V. of 1900 '/s, 1.5 MOA and E.S. of 30. By the time I reached 24 grs. primers were starting to show some flattening, the barrel leaded badly and the groups became patterns. The velocity was around the 1980'/s mark. Lar45's predictions were very close to what I experienced. I thought I would have gone a bit further but I guess the pressure finally did me in. Ron.D