1891 argie in 7.65x53 or is it 54?

[adrians]

hi .
just a quick question .
how strong is the argie 1891 mauser in 7.65x54 or is it 53?.
just curios cos i just bought one (1894 manufacture).
oh and what would it compare to balisticaly nowadays,.?
:evil::confused::confused::twisted:

[largom]

In his "Pet Loads" book Ken Waters rates the 7.65 Argie between the 308 and the 30-06. It is a great gun and cartridge with the only drawback being the limited choices in available bullets in .312 dia. Molds for cast boolits also offer few choices. I have the carbine and it is a great little gun.

Larry

[Reg]

With all due respect to Mr. Waters, the 91 should be held to 40, 000 # max.
Works well with the .300 Savage and .35 Remington . The 7.65 cartrige itself is a very good deer round.
The action itself shows some of the finest workmanship ever used on any military rifle but most tend to be a bit soft and they don't have some of the gas handling ability of the later 98 design.
A very usable action within its capabilitys.

:smile:

[leadman]

I have a couple of these and find they are a great rifle. The case is slightly larger than the 308 and is easily made from any 30-06 or 8 X57 based case. It can be done with the sizing die, but is much easier and faster with the RCBS trim die.
At one time Norma loaded the 150gr jacketed bullet to 2,900 fps, now it runs about 2,700 fps. At one time the cartridge was listed as 7.65 X54, but in the last 20 years or so most call it 7.65 X53. Could be to identify it better from the Russian round.
Most any cast boolit suitable for the 7.62 X54 Mosin or 303 British work in these. Do slug your bore.
These rifles do not have the gas handling capabilities or the later Mausers so if you blow a primer or case it may end up in your face. I have never had a problem in almost 30 years of firing one of these. Knock on wood!

I have taken game including elk with no issues.

If your is still in full military dress and you want to scope it contact the Dutchman here as he makes a great scope mount that replaces the rear sight.

[jonk]

7.65X53.5.... seems the Belgians and Turks rounded down, Argentines rounded up. Same cartridge though, the 53 and 54.

[Larry Gibson]

the 91 should be held to 40, 000 # max

Why?

The CIP (there is no SAAMI MAP for this cartridge) MAP is 3900 bar or 56,565 psi. I have pressure tested, in my M91 Argentine, some Belgian 1935 milsurp and it ran a MAP of 53,200 psi(M43). Argentine FMMAP and SF milsurp also run in the 54,000+ psi(M43) range. Hornady's factory 150 gr load runs 53,400 psi(M43) and Normas older 150 gr load runs 56,100 psi(M43). My own jacketed 150 gr (Hornady .312) with H380 runs 54,000 psi(M43) at 2797 fps from the 24" barrel (photo). My 4 M91 Argentines shoot those with out any problems.

The 7.65 Argentine is very comparable ballistically to the .308W with comparable bullets. It is an excellent cartridge for plinking and hunting with jacketed and cast bullets. I've found that most any cast bullet that drops at .312 will shoot very well in most M91 Argentines. I favor the C312-185 and the 314299 for general loads with the C312-185 cast soft and HP'd for hunting at 1950 fps. The Hornady swaged .32 cal 90 gr SWC or the Lee cast TL314-90-SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye is a very fun plinking and small game load.

Larry Gibson

[adrians]

good to know guys ,
i have quite a few 30 cal molds which each drop different dia so im in great shape .
i think i'll buy a box of norma or privi loaded ammo and use the empties to reload with what i got and see what i can come up with.
first things first slug the darn thing and see what she tells me.
do most reloading vendors have the approprate dies for this cartridge?
thanks guys and have a great thanksgiving,.. :twisted::awesome::evil:

[leadman]

Yes, most of the reloading companies have these dies.

Brass is pretty easy to make from the 8mm or 30-06. Also Graf usually has brass and ammo.
Be wary of some of the berdan primed surplus. Don't know if there is any left on the market but some that came out of South America 10 or so years ago was too long from base to shoulder. One of my guns I could gently force the bolt home, the other was a no go.

[3006guns]

Yes, most of the reloading companies have these dies.

Brass is pretty easy to make from the 8mm or 30-06. Also Graf usually has brass and ammo.
Be wary of some of the berdan primed surplus. Don't know if there is any left on the market but some that came out of South America 10 or so years ago was too long from base to shoulder. One of my guns I could gently force the bolt home, the other was a no go.

Yeah, there's some left alright. I've got three unopened cases of 7.65 (in clips) stored right now. It's still good, nice brass and berdan primed but brother is it hot! I wouldn't dare shoot this stuff in an 1891. Even in my 1909 I make it a practice to pull the bullet and reduce the charge by about 5%. Now if anyone imports a bunch of berdan primers.............

[adrians]

leadman thanks for the headsup on the berdan surplus.
i only intend to shoot cast in this rifle ,,,well all my rifles eat cast anymore,i dont think any copper has been down any of my bores for a long while now except g/c's.
no i tell a lie i shot some rem 303 brit a month or so ago (it was gifted to me ).
now i'll shop around for a set of dies, rcbs are generally my go to dies.
have a great night .[smilie=6:

[Reg]

I have always just used Norma and also have made up hundreds using Ball M-1. With the military though do drop the loads by 10 percent. Military brass is made thicker reducing the internal capacity.
If you want speed in making cases, get a RCBS file type trim die, use it for the first form, cut off, file to length, chamfer ID and OD then run back through a FL die. You can make up hundreds in a evening.
Last batch I ran I also neck annealed before loading. May not have been necessary as most case failures I have ever had have been head seperations but then only after 15 to 20 reloads.
It's very common to get 1 inch groups @ 100 yds using a good 150 grain jacketed bullet if your bore is even half way decent.

:drinks:

[Larry Gibson]

Yeah, there's some left alright. I've got three unopened cases of 7.65 (in clips) stored right now. It's still good, nice brass and berdan primed but brother is it hot! I wouldn't dare shoot this stuff in an 1891. Even in my 1909 I make it a practice to pull the bullet and reduce the charge by about 5%. Now if anyone imports a bunch of berdan primers.............

Do you know the headstamp/lot of that "hot" ammo?

Larry Gibson

[blastit37]

how deep do you guys seat the bullets? It seems the 91's have a very deep throat and a 150 would require a heckofa jump.

[adrians]

on all my old-er rifles i will "breechseat' a dummy round .
use an empty case flare the neck a tad to allow you to finger seat the boolit so it is somewhat secure enough so as to stay in position and put in the mag " if it isn't too long " and gengly close the bolt and lock it , then gently open and retrieve the round to see if there is any rifling marks ,if so put in your press and gently raise the ram until you feel the seating stem contact the boolit then lower and screw down the adjusting screw about 1/2 a turn ( or so ?) this will seat the boolit deeper so as to have it just off the lands,,,,,,, some folks like to have the lead touching the lands .
i just prefer mine a gnats hair off the lands.
your rifle will tell you what it likes and how deep it likes to be seated .
mark and save the "dummy" or take measurements and that will be the designated cartridge dimentions for that particular rifle /chamber.
if i gave any missinformation here there is plenty of well learned folks here to give you the correct way to do this .
i consider myself a minnow in this casting pond and i have learned a ton of great stuff from bigger fish in this lake ,thanks to all of them by the way .
have a great turkey day folks.
adrian.
:twisted::cast_boolits::evil:

[Larry Gibson]

how deep do you guys seat the bullets? It seems the 91's have a very deep throat and a 150 would require a heckofa jump.

Yes, the M91/M1909s have long throats like many milsurps of that era. I seat the 150 gr Hornady .312 SPs to 2.96 AOL which gives just at 1 caliber seating depth into the case. This gives proper case neck tension on the bullets. With cast I seat the bullets so the lube grooves are inside the neck if possible without the top of the GC being below the case neck.

With a proper fit to the throat I've found it doesn't matter if the front driving band is against the leade or not. This is especially the case with longer cast bullets such as the 314299 where the bulet nose is into the rifling and supported.

The 314299 is an excellent cast bullet for the 7.65 Arentine cartridge, about the best of the "heavies" in my opinion.

Larry Gibson

[Uncle Grinch]

Adrian,

I had a 91 an Argentine Carbine at one time, but sold it as it had been chopped by Bubba. I still have my 09 Argy Engineer's Carbine and have been reforming R/P 30-06 brass for it for so long, that I wouldn't even think of buying the Prvi brass.... to much investing in my reformed stuff.

I shoot Lyman 314299 resized to .313 with various loads that range from 1200 ~ 1800 fps. It shoots better than I can hold with those military sights.

The Argentine Mausers are very well made, especially the Lowe versions. My '09 is an FMAP, but it's seems to be well made also.

[PatMarlin]

I'm still cleaning the bore on my M1891 Lowe.

Bunch of lead fouling over copper. Then hours on my Outers Foul Out cleaner for copper. Now- I think there's another layer of lead that was under the copper. Bore is bright, smooth, and shiny so I think it's going to be a good shooter, when I get around to shooting it ...:mrgreen:

[MtGun44]

Ah Pat,

Embarqued on one of the "great milsurp archeologic digs" trying to find the bottoms of
the grooves! Been there, done that a couple of times. You can often get an amazing amount
of crud out of a "clean looking" barrel.

Bill

[PatMarlin]

Yaw- My Outers earned it's keep this time. Probably about 30 hours total on copper.

[adrians]

well guys my argie is in the mail (gunbroker buy) so i don.t know the bore condition but the description (if true) said it was clean, no pitting and sharp rifleing,,,we'll see.
i just got my 316299 from NOE to use in my 303's i will size down for the argie, but i have enough molds to get a good heavy boolit for it.
will have to chamber cast and everything ....
can't wait to get it and play .
pat this one is a lowe ,

mike i reform my 8mm from 30-06 and never even thought about doing the same for the 7.65 ,you just saved me a few $$$ on the norma and privi idea, thanks bud,
have a good thanksgiving and be safe,, that turkey can hurt ya[smilie=l:.
:twisted::happy dance::evil:

[220swiftfn]

how deep do you guys seat the bullets? It seems the 91's have a very deep throat and a 150 would require a heckofa jump.

The 7.65 Belgian (and Argentine) originally had a 211gr LONG round nose bullet (going by memory here, so I might be a little off....) so when you put a spitzer in there you have instant FREEBORE!!!!!

37798


Dan

[PatMarlin]

I'd take a pic of mine but it' so long the camera won't fit.

[adrians]

[smilie=l:
I'd take a pic of mine but it' so long the camera won't fit.

[KCSO]

It isn't so much that the 91 action is not strong enough but it sure isn't safe enough. There are no gas relief holes and if you split a case or have a primer leak all the gas comes right back into your face. This isn't going to happen with modern brass but I have had military rounds spliit on 3 different occasions. This is why DeHass recommmended 40,000 for this action. I liike the argentine rifles and even loaded to the 40,000 limit you just about equal the 308. I sold my last rifle to a friend and he uses it with the peep sights to take prarie dogs out to 250 yards. They are a wonderful old rifle.

[Multigunner]

Awhile back when looking up powders for the .303 I found data on the Hodgdon site for the then new IMR 4007 SSC (Super Short Cut) powder.
This powder was said to give excellent performance at lower pressures than other comparable powders.
Their .303 loads using 4007 were around 10% lower chamber pressures at the same velocity than any other powders listed.
I've never seen this powder in local shops, so I can't say I know for sure if it lives up to the published results.

[KCSO]

At one time Norma powders were the way to go. The old Norma ammo was pushing a 150 at 2900 from a 91 with safe pressures. I've been shooting cast so long I forget what the powder was. It;s no problem pushing a 180-220 cast bullet to 2000 fps with mooderate pressure and here the deer aren't so tough that I need more.

[leadman]

Most of the loading data for the 303 British and the 7.65 Arg. are very close to the same. I have used the 303 starting data when a powder I wanted to use was not listed for the Arg.

Do this at your own risk. I mention this fact because most of the newer powders don't have any data for the Arg.

Don't discount the use of pulled military .308" bullets as sometimes they shoot very well.

[Larry Gibson]

KCSO

Are you using the old psi figures which are now CUPs?

The older cupro-nickel 150 gr Norma load with the NORMA re 7.65 headstamped cases and the primers with NP on them chronographs and has measured psi'd pretty much the same as the newer brass jacketed 150 gr SP NORMA 7.65 ARG headstamped cartridges with unmarked primers. The older, faster velocities were from the long 29"+ barrels of the '91 and 1909s rifles and the newer figures are from shorter "sporter" length barrels. The older cartridges have 47.2 gr of powder and the newer cartridges (of the lots I've tested) have 48.2 gr, well within lot to lot variation of the same powder. As I stated earlier they both chronograph and pressure test pretty much the same and at the top end of CIP's PMAX.

Larry Gibson

[blastit37]

Thanks for the replys on the long freebore. I can't get a full bullet diameter on mind, the neck is only about .270 long, but the longer 180's with a flat base will fill most of it and get within about .020 of the lands on my 1909. By the way, it has a new German replacement barrel on it replacing the 24 inch sporterized 30-06 barrel it had. Found a nice military stock for it also. I am looking to start on some lead bullets soon and I would like to try the 314299 If I new who made the mold. What is its weight?

[Frank46]

The 314299 number is from lyman. Origionally for the 303 british but many moisin and argie owners use it. Heck, I liked it so much that after I saw how good it shot in a m27 finnish moisin I bought another two cavity mold so if I screwed up the first one I'd still have another one to fall back on. But these molds I'm talking about are at least 17-18 years old and a lot of casters here have been vocal about the newer lyman molds casting undersized. Its listed weight is about 200-210 grains. Never weighed any of my bullets. IMR 4759 should be a great powder for the argie, it sure is in my moisin. Frank

[Ed in North Texas]

If you are just starting out, for $10.00 more than a box of 20 Norma loaded rounds from Midway ($39.99/20) you can buy 100 Prvi Partizan new cases from Graf's (less than the $10.00 actually, Midway's shipping will be more than $4.95).

Midway has the Prvi Partizan loaded ammo on sale now ($15.69/20) if you must go loaded ammo to start.

[Ed in North Texas]

The 314299 number is from lyman. Origionally for the 303 british but many moisin and argie owners use it. Heck, I liked it so much that after I saw how good it shot in a m27 finnish moisin I bought another two cavity mold so if I screwed up the first one I'd still have another one to fall back on. But these molds I'm talking about are at least 17-18 years old and a lot of casters here have been vocal about the newer lyman molds casting undersized. Its listed weight is about 200-210 grains. Never weighed any of my bullets. IMR 4759 should be a great powder for the argie, it sure is in my moisin. Frank

NOE 314299 stock left from the group buy.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=134239

[adrians]

If you are just starting out, for $10.00 more than a box of 20 Norma loaded rounds from Midway ($39.99/20) you can buy 100 Prvi Partizan new cases from Graf's (less than the $10.00 actually, Midway's shipping will be more than $4.95).

Midway has the Prvi Partizan loaded ammo on sale now ($15.69/20) if you must go loaded ammo to start.

ed i may go with the privi brass,, but i'm leaning to forming my own now.
i have dies (rcbs) but they are 7.65bm i think i goofed up in getting the belgium /argie,slight differance in size but i could always take a couple of thou off the bottom of the die ,,,,i think:veryconfu

[Dutch4122]

NOE 314299 stock left from the group buy.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=134239

My '91 Argentine loves the NOE 316299 which is the same design, but cut to drop .316" out of wheelweight with a slightly fatter .305" nose. Swede has a bunch of these left over from the recent re-run Group Buy.

Hope this helps, :mrgreen:

[dualsport]

I can vouch for the '91's lack of ability to handle escaping gas. I was shooting mine, slightly bubba'd, and blew a primer. The gas coming back at my face broke the Buehler safety, some small bits of solids embedded in my cheek. Fortunately I always wear eye protection or it may have been much worse. I am sick about the Buehler safety, it's irreplaceable. I'd give my lefnut for another one! That gun is a shooter and has won me a few prizes/$ and is a hog droppin' SOB. It's fun to get that kind of performance from such an old warhorse.

[adrians]

My '91 Argentine loves the NOE 316299 which is the same design, but cut to drop .316" out of wheelweight with a slightly fatter .305" nose. Swede has a bunch of these left over from the recent re-run Group Buy.

Hope this helps, :mrgreen:

dutch i hope mine likes the 316299, i was in that g/b and mine drops just the same as yours,,,, .316--------.305 nose.:twisted::-P:evil:

[TreeKiller]

Same mold 316299 drops the same dimensions hope to use in in my 303. 7.7 Jap and my Nagants. Mine weight 209.2 with the lead i am using. Cast some today and can't wait to try them.

[PatMarlin]

I may need that 316, as my Argie groove slugs at .314, and I hope my Lyman 314299 casts out large which considering how new it is (bout 2006 mfg) it may not. I should get off my rear and go cast some up right now, but still recovering from Turkey.

[Multigunner]

At one time Norma powders were the way to go. The old Norma ammo was pushing a 150 at 2900 from a 91 with safe pressures. I've been shooting cast so long I forget what the powder was. It;s no problem pushing a 180-220 cast bullet to 2000 fps with mooderate pressure and here the deer aren't so tough that I need more.

I used Norma powders for 7.92X57 loads many years ago, I forget the numbers of the two powders I tried. I gave the remainder of these powders along with remaining IMR powders to a young friend who was just getting into handloading. The powders were over 15 years old, but showed no signs of degradation and still produced accurate full power loads.

[Larry Gibson]

This is only a guess; based on the loads in the factory Norma 7.65 rounds (old & new), the velocity and the load data for Norma powders my guess is the powder used in the factory ammo is non cannister close to 202 or 203B Norma powders. Powders like 4895, Varget, 4064 and H380 are good powders to use to duplicate the factory loads and stay under the CIP PMAX for the cartridge. 2800 fps is probably a good max "target" velocity with those powders in shortened 22 - 26" barrels.

Larry Gibson

[adrians]

larry you just mentioned varget and made me go look and low and behold i have a tub of that ,,,,hummm! ..
why did i buy that and how long have i had it ? i ask myself[smilie=b:
may a take a while.:evil::confused::twisted:

[leadman]

AA2520 is also a very good powder. I use it with the Remington 180gr .310" RN for elk. Velocity is a little over 2,550 fps with the max listed load.

[Frank46]

I have some argentine hunting loads and the box is marked 7.65x54. They will not fit in two of my 1891 sporters. To make them work, pull the bullet, dump the powder in a small pill bottle one for each cartridge. Remove decapping pin from f/l die and resize and drop charge 5 grains and reseat bullet. Lotta work for 75 rounds. Frank

[adrians]

Frank,
"you gotta do what you gotta do", i call it therapy [smilie=b:
:evil::coffeecom:twisted: