A discussion on low velocity loads

[Jim]

Most of you know, but for those that don't, I'm an avid 'coon hunter. I use a Cricket single shot rifle to hunt with.

Recently, I got this wild arssed, hair brained idea about working up a super low velocity load in a centerfire caliber with a cast boolit that might be suitable to kill a 'coon with.

The two calibers that I want to experiment with are .357 magnum in a Marlin 1894 lever action and 6.5 X 55 in a Carl Gustav Swedish Mauser.

My thoughts about a load for the Marlin are using a .375 round ball in a .357 magnum case. I propose to run the ball through a .358 Lee sizer die and seat it over a very light charge of some fast pistol powder. I'm thinking a magnum case would eliminate or, at least, reduce bullet jump.

Concerning the 6.5, I'd like to develop a load using the Lyman 266469 Loverin design boolit, again with a touch of fast powder.

The object of my intent is to create a load that develops enough energy to actually get the boolit out of the barrel, but low enough that it doesn't wreck a 'coon. I want to keep the velocity down for two reasons. I don't want to do any more damage to the 'coon than I absolutely have to and I want it to be as quiet as possible.

Those are the parameters of the idea. Court is now in session.

[Rangefinder]

Sounds completely do-able to me. Not real well versed on the 6.5, but 5gr. of Red Dot pushing a .357 158gr. SWC makes for a really comfortable target load. I'm not sure the velocity it's running off-hand since my chrony went to velocity heaven some time ago. But it's a starting point and then you could work DOWN on the load to see what velocities you could get it down to. The same boolit in 38SPL runs really nice over 3gr. Red Dot, too. Just a thought.

[Trey45]

There's a lot to be said for using the economical fast burners like Red Dot and Bullseye for this. I can't help but think in the cavernous case of the 6.5 Swede you might get detonation if you go too low in your charge.

Just to throw a wrench in the works here, 10 grains of Unique seems to be a fairly common charge in a multitude of rifle calibers when downloading them, but it's not going to get you in the 700 to 800 fps range, more likely it will be in the 1000 to 1200 fps range.

Has anyone here used a slow burning powder like surplus 860 with a heavier bullet for something like this? It might work, but wouldn't be nearly as economical as using a fast powder like the Red Dot or Bullseye. Just something to consider.

[Rangefinder]

Trey has a point if going TOO low. But the case capacity in the 6.5 swede is almost identical to the 7.62x54. Maybe start at "the Load" or just under and work down a little at a time to see where things go. I've gone down as far as 10gr Red Dot in the Mosin will near-perfect shooting (it actually grouped better). Couldn't say what velocity it runs though.

Another route may be to try some Trail Boss loads.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullseye works very well, excellent actually, for these low level loads. It does not "detonate".

I would suggest a swaged or cast 140 HBWC for the .357 at 500 - 600 fps (1.9 - 2.4 gr Bullseye). A lead or 40-1 cast Lee 358-105-SWC at the same velocity level if you want the rounds to feed from the magazine (2 - 2.8 gr Bullseye).

I covered the 6.5 loads in the other thread.

Larry Gibson

[Jim]

I started research with the .357 Marlin. My first objective was to find the lowest possible charge that would still push a boolit out of the barrel. I was prepared for a squib load.

Cases- .357 nickle plated, commercial mfgr'd., mixed head stamps

Boolit- Bull-X brand, 158 gr., bevel base, SWC, pre-lubed with something blue.

Powder- Unique

I elevated the rifle to approximately 20 degrees from vertical, as it would be in a hunting scenario. I fired into the side of a tree to watch for boolit strike. I fired charges starting at 3.4 grains and went down to 1.5. No squibs so far.

I'll resume testing, hopefully, tomorrow.

[Norbrat]

Trail Boss is a good powder for low power loads.

I use 11 gns in a .308 and a 155gn boolit for around 1250fps. Could easily go lower and the powder is so bulky it fills the cases nicely for consistent burn.

[Jim]

The only pistol powders I have on hand are Unique, 2400, Red Dot, Bullseye and WC820.

[Dan Cash]

The only pistol powders I have on hand are Unique, 2400, Red Dot, Bullseye and WC820.

1.5 or 2 gr of Bullseye will serve you much better than the Unique. I have found the Unique to be a bit eratic at very low level of loading. Not dangerous, just eratic.

[frnkeore]

Here is a site that may help. It does have 357 data but, regardless I think anyone curious about subsonic will enjoy it.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm

Frank

[tacklebury]

I'm using 5 gr. Unique in a .223 Remington with 46 gr. Winchester HP's to accomplish the same thing. Keeping it down at the level of .22 LR now and possibly less if I can get ahold of a .22 cal mold. Thinking I'll just order some .22 leads to test with and see what mold will work well. ;)

[Lonegun1894]

I have been using a No.4 Mk 1 Enfield in .303 British to kill pests up to 20lbs in my garden (in town) and it sounds like a pelletgun (shot both side by side, and the .303 was slightly quieter). My load is a 90 grain Lee SWC sized to .314 and lubed with LLA, pushed by a CCI Large Pistol primer and 1.5 grains of Unique, and no filler. I have no idea what the velocity is, but it is SLOW, and definitely less than 1000fps. This load groups into 3/4" at 25yds, and hasn't stopped in a pest yet so I am careful to only shoot when I have one of the garden beds behind the pest, and they have to walk from one to the others to tear them up, os it just means waiting a bit. I have shot this load just practicing in my yard with a pile of dirt as a berm, with the girlfriend in the house just inside the house, and the neighbor grilling in his backyard about 75 FEET away. The girlfriend knew what I was doing and didnt comment, she just laughs at my stunts. The neighbor asked what kind of pelletgun I was using cause he couldnt see it over the 6'tall privacy fence. Told him I have a Crossman I occasionally shoot in the yard, and that seemed to satisfy his curiosity.

I dont have a 6.5 Swede, but have used this load in .308, .30-06, .303 brit with about the same results. Using it in a .30-30 it was slightly louder. Also tried a 155-160gr Lee in the Brit just now, expecting a squib, but figured it may work. It made it 6-6.5" out of the case, so didnt even make it half way through the barrel. 2.7grs Unique does get it to clear my muzzle, but at higher velocity and it sounds like shooting a .22 subsonic, so not bad, but still louder than the 1.5gr Unique/90gr boolit load.

[excess650]

Jim,
I would suggest that you use the Marlin 357 with 357 cases and either the Bullseye or Red Dot. Too, I would suggest the Lee 356-120-TC, 358-105-SWC, or 358-125-RF. Seat the boolit out to touch the rifling and don't crimp. You'll have to experiment with powder charge to see where it groups well. Start at 1.5gr and work up .2 or .3 at a time and see where the vertical stringing is minimized.

I had done some of this with a Marlin in 32-20 and 38-55 in a long barreled single shot. My good loads would shoot sub 1" at 50 yards, and the 38-55 was silent....all you heard was the hammer fall.

The 32-20 was used on backyard groundhogs since the 22CBs couldn't be counted on to anchor them without a perfect base of the ear hit.

[Jim]

Jim,
I would suggest that you use the Marlin 357 with 357 cases and either the Bullseye or Red Dot.

I have both and intend to test with those.

Too, I would suggest the Lee 356-120-TC, 358-105-SWC, or 358-125-RF.

I wish I had one or two of those light weight styles!

Seat the boolit out to touch the rifling and don't crimp.

I've been thinking about that. I think I'd rather seat the boolit back to give it a running start on the riflings. Starting a boolit against the riflings with that little bit of powder, I'm afraid it might squib.
As for crimping, I agree. I just have to make sure I've got the flare out of the case mouth so I can hand feed them into the chamber without an issue.

You'll have to experiment with powder charge to see where it groups well. Start at 1.5gr and work up .2 or .3 at a time and see where the vertical stringing is minimized.

I started loading test ammo last night. I'm increasing the charge by 1/10 of a grain at a time. With such little bit of window to work in, I don't want to miss the sweet spot.

I had done some of this with a Marlin in 32-20 and 38-55 in a long barreled single shot. My good loads would shoot sub 1" at 50 yards, and the 38-55 was silent....all you heard was the hammer fall.

The 32-20 was used on backyard groundhogs since the 22CBs couldn't be counted on to anchor them without a perfect base of the ear hit.

Thank you for your comments. The more I get, the better chance I have of making sense of this crazy idea.

[1Shirt]

Might want to try a round ball load in 357. Adequate for coon out of a tree, minimal damage to pelt I believe.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[excess650]

Regardless as to whether you're touching or not, I think you'll have more uniform neck tension without a crimp, and this will minimize vertical dispersion due to velocity variations. You could just take the flare off the case, and that is basically what I do when seating the boolits.

I have shot some of these through a Marlin 1894c, but only in my garage. In that I wasn't shooting 25 yards or further, I can't tell you where the sweet spot will be, but it won't be the minimum charge that gets the boolit out of the barrel reliably.

Its not a crazy idea at all. There are multiples of threads about "cat sneeze" or "mouse fart" loads.

PM me your address and I'll send you boolits.

[Jim]

Regardless as to whether you're touching or not, I think you'll have more uniform neck tension without a crimp, and this will minimize vertical dispersion due to velocity variations. You could just take the flare off the case, and that is basically what I do when seating the boolits.

Yes Sir, agree completely.

I have shot some of these through a Marlin 1894c, but only in my garage. In that I wasn't shooting 25 yards or further, I can't tell you where the sweet spot will be, but it won't be the minimum charge that gets the boolit out of the barrel reliably.

Its not a crazy idea at all. There are multiples of threads about "cat sneeze" or "mouse fart" loads.

PM me your address and I'll send you boolits.

Will do and thank you!!

[klcarroll]

Well, .........I load A LOT of 38/200 ammo for my Webleys, and based on my field experience, (woodchucks and "pest rabbits") I think I would go in exactly the opposite direction with your .357 load!

Rather than using a round ball, which will require some effort to "keep slow", ....I would try a lead 200 grainer at about 450 fps.

I have noted that at that speed, the boolit will still punch completely through a woodchuck sized critter, but the entrance and exit wounds looks like the result of a target arrow; .....As the boolit hasn't had time to develop the destructive tumble that is a characteristic of the military 38/200 round.


Kent

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[Jim]

KL, that's not a bad idea. I have a good reason, though, for wanting to use the lightest boolit I can make work. We sell the pelts after about the first of December. The less damage done, the better. Actually, the common sense approach is to use a low powered .22 LR.

Honestly, the reason I would like to make the Marlin .357 work is so I have kind of a 'all purpose' rifle. If I can work up a load that will just barely knock a coon out of the tree with it, I can also carry some 'full house' rounds in the other pocket for 'unforeseen circumstances'.

Cavortin' around in the woods of these hills at night, ain't no tellin' what you might encounter, man or beast.

[excess650]

I saw a bobcat cross the Blue Ridge Parkway near Mabry Mill. You KNOW there are bears in the area, and some of the local folks have seen longtailed cats south of Stuart on Handy Mountain and in Kibler Valley.

You're more likey to have trouble with 2 legged vermin, but the growin' season is over, so that shouldn't be an issue.

[Rocky Raab]

A bulky powder would be best, so of the powders you have on hand, RedDot would get my nod. If you don't mind investing in another powder, TiteGroup is a great choice. It not only works in regular light to medium loads, and is very clean-burning, BUT it is also expressly designed to be position insensitive for small charges in large cases. It was created for the Cowboy Action crowd who want the lightest, slowest load they can get to keep recoil to minimum. It worked so well for Hodgdon that IMR came out with Trail Boss to stay in the game.

[Jim]

Rocky, let's assume a .357 case with a Lee .358-158-SWC, tumble lubed in Alox. Using Red Dot, what charge window would you suggest?

[Rocky Raab]

I'd begin at 3.0 and work down a bit if that still gives you a bit more speed than you need. That's a .38 load in a 357 case; the loss from a larger case ought to about balance out against the gain from a longer barrel. I'd guess that 3.0 would generate about 800 fps from a rifle. You should be able to get down to 2.5 or even a smidge less without sticking a bullet.

[Jim]

Thank you. I'll give that a try.

[pipehand]

Jim, I recently bought a "rook rifle" chambered in 32 H&R mag fom a member here. Made some loads yesterday with 1.1 grains of VV-N310 and 90 grain lead that were accurate and just below 500 fps. Loudest sound was the boolit going thru the plywood target backer. Thouhgt they would do well for shots up at squirrels, but coon would do as well. Check out Gunwriters on the Web for a 3 part article by C.E. "Ed" Harris. I believe its called "Silence is Golden". That site is, I believe, the source of the "Cats Sneeze" name for dramatically reduced loads. Have fun and be safe.

[Jim]

Hey, Pipe! Long time no see saw, Sir! Still fittin' buttweld? Sure wish I was there tackin' for ya'!

I've seen some of Ed's stuff. Learned a lot, too!

[Jim]

I ran 5 groups of tests today.

Marlin 1894, .357 magnum
.38 spl. cases, mixed head stamps
Lee 358-158-TL SWC
White Label Xlox
1.6 to 2.4 gr. Unique
Dacron filler
Standard small pistol primers
5 shots per target
50 feet
Sunny, cool, very light breeze
Target is one inch bullet paster

This one shows promise. Will run another batch starting with fired barrel.
http://jgcphotos.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/p10100082-e1322159822755.jpg

First thought here was stop testing and go with first batch.
http://jgcphotos.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/p10100073-e1322159870109.jpg

No good.
http://jgcphotos.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/p10100064-e1322159929602.jpg

And then, THIS happened!
http://jgcphotos.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/p10100053-e1322159989531.jpg

[Rangefinder]

Jim, I'd say your work is done for the day! Go grab a turkey leg and see if there's a game on worth falling asleep to! That last group is a thing of beauty!

[Jim]

Ain't it, though? I got somethin' for Mr. Ringtail, now!

[Olevern]

Now that there's a right purty group!

[BAGTIC]

I have been shooting RB out of an H&R .357 Maximum for more than 30 years. I use unsized 360 RB cast from WW loaded in .357 Magnum brass I have no problem getting it out of the 22 inch barrel using 4 grains or more of Red Dot. The secret is to use a compressed load. I seat the ball all the way down on the powder. The eraser end of a pencil works good. The 100% case capacity load guaratees a good uniform as a pressure rise fast enough to prevent case smoking.

Of course I need to single load the gun. I never had any luck trying to feed round ball loads through either my Marlin 1894 or my M92 clones. They either jam or the ball comes loose and dumps all the powder. Too short a COL is often a problem in repeaters.

[Jim]

.....
Of course I need to single load the gun. I never had any luck trying to feed round ball loads through either my Marlin 1894 or my M92 clones. They either jam or the ball comes loose and dumps all the powder. Too short a COL is often a problem in repeaters.

One of several reasons I decided to use SWC or TC boolits instead of RBs.

[tacklebury]

Looks like you are getting a nice group. I don't really think you'd need the dacron, but to each their own. I do RB loads with 10 gr. Unique in .45-70 with no filler and have never had a FTF and I also use 4.1gr Unique in .223 Rem. with std. bullets to achieve approximately .22 LR level loads but with better bullets and better accuracy. I haven't had a ftf on any of these either without a filler. Just thought I'd pass along my findings. ;)

[Jim]

Tacklebury,
I'll try that same load without the dacron and see what happens. You just might have something there.

I admit, I tend to get unnecessarily anal when I'm building test loads. I thought that keeping the charge against the flash hole might reduce any variable from the powder moving around in the case.

With respect to my knowledge of handloading and load development, I wouldn't make a pimple on the butt of most guys here and I sure ain't no ballistician. I try to keep an open mind and listen to others, so thanks for the suggestion about skipping the dacron.