Long barrel and a fat, long slow bullet-

[Bert2368]

I am researching a rifle project...

Primary use will be subsonic loads using cast bullets, 350 to 500 gr. is my best guess, and I'd prefer as heavy and long as possible. Powder to be a fast burning variety (trail boss, bullseye or such) 45-70 or 444 Marlin are first thoughts as to caliber, .50AE or such could do it too. I've got .44, .45 and .50AE guns, so these components are allready on hand.

If you've researched cat sneeze, you know where this is going.

I know there are a number of cowboy 45-70's with 26" barrels, but I'd like to go even longer- 30" or even more. I also want to be able to mount a rail/scope on the gun, so top eject and a hammer are difficulties I would rather avoid. I do recall seeing others have set up cheap surplus Mausers in .45-70. That could be a starting point. A handi rifle or a TC with the right barrel could also do the trick (and be useful for something else after this project).

Anyone done this? Thought I'd ask here before I try to re-invent the wheel...

[leadman]

Some research on the appropriate twist rate would probably be needed. I shoot a 300 Whisper with a 1 in 8 twist for the heavy projectiles. The T/C standard barrel I had was a 1 in 10 twist and did not do well with the heavy projectiles.

[Chicken Thief]

How far away do you intend to shoot at what?
High BC and weight = more energy at distance, but you know that.
For cal 45 choise thins aut at about 550+grains and for 50 at about 850-900grains.
Look at BP speed and ballistics.

PS. I made a muffled 45-70 on a M17. Boolit choise was limited by barrel twist.

[excess650]

The only Mausers that I'm familar with that were converted to 45-70 were the Siamese. They have a weird, angled magazine.....

I had read an article years back about one of the Enfields converted to 45-90. If it'll handle the 90, it'll handle the shorter 45-70. Maybe this would be possible with a Mosin-Nagant as well.

Sub-sonic with a 500gr boolit will make follow through critical if you're going to hit anything. I recall that as being something Paul Matthews mentioned in his writings about the 45-70.

Rebarreling a Ruger #1 might be the way to go.

[Bert2368]

I am thinking fairly short range- 50-100 yards will do. Even with a high BC, something like this will have a trajectory like a rainbow. I do understand the long barrel time will require a very good follow through, and will also use a bipod.

I agree that standard twist for the calibers mentioned is going to be too slow for this use. Someone with more knowledge/experience/software will need to be consulted before a barrel is selected or a compromise on boolit size is made to fit what's available as a stock barrel.

I live in a state where ordinary folks are forbidden to own silencers, that and an excess of larger varmints are my reasons to pursue this combination. Thinking on getting stock next spring, and I'd rather not feed it to the critters on site or annoy the neighbors while removing said critters at their preferred dinner hours. Plus it's an interesting project...

[Larry Gibson]

Bert2368

You might look a a BPCR in 4570. Most of the newer ones have long barrels and 18" twists and will handle 550 gr bullets at some pretty low velocities. Or a Ruger #1 in 45-70. It has no hammer and ejection is straight back and they are easily scoped as the come with rings. Understanding that some sort of "light gathering" addition in front of the scope or in lieu of may be used so a rail should be easy enough to attach also. My own 1884 TD with a 22" twist and long barrel (29 1//2, yes it has been shortened) stabilizes the Rapine 460500 very nicely down to 500 fps.

Larry Gibson

[Bert2368]

Thanks for the suggestion- what does the Rapine 460500 weigh?
(edit)
500 grains, more or less?

[Shooter]

H&R buffalo classic, 32" barrel, drilled and tapped for scope.

[Bert2368]

Yes-

Looking at one on Gunbroker... Trying to find out what the twist is.

(edit)
H&R Buffalo Classic 32" 45-70 barrel has 1 in 20" twist according to their site-

[Chicken Thief]

So it's for short range but what critter? Paper to T-REX depends on weight?

If you're going to shoot "only" one distance than who gives a hoot about boolit curvature?

So if you state your exact purpose then a proper answer can better be provided!

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the suggestion- what does the Rapine 460500 weigh?
(edit)
500 grains, more or less?

500 gr is the correct answer!

Larry Gibson

[uscra112]

I'd choose a Winchester High Wall, or if you have the money, a Sharps Borchart. Both are very strong, and you'll need that because your fast powders may give you some pretty high peak pressures. The shortness of these actions will make the long barrel less of a nuisance.

A Ruger would also do, although in my humble opinion they have too many moving parts.

.454 Casull, throated really long for a 500 grain boolit would be optimum for making the least noise. A 500 grain cast boolit seated well out (only 1/2" deep), using 9 grains of Red Dot, calculates to 1000 fps in a 30" barrel, using Quickload, with a muzzle pressure of only 470 psi., but the peak pressure will be 45K psi. Now it's obvious why you'll need a very strong action if you go that way. And the fast powders will be extremely sensitive to seating depth and charge weight tolerance - another reason for a very strong action. No lever-guns need apply here!

But .45-70 isn't far behind, and a lot easier to build - no special reamers. Muzzle pressure calculate 20-30% higher, but peak pressures will be a lot lower. (30K psi)

That big boolit is going to be a severe ricochet hazard! Especially on frozen ground.

[NickSS]

With a 45-70 subsonic loads are a breeze to make. As for fast powders get a can of trail boss or unique and you are all done. The cheapest rifle you can buy for this purpose is and H&R Buffalo Classic and it is already drilled and tapped for a scope. Loading it to velocities below the speed of sound is simplicity in itself just put about 10 gr of Unique behind a 500 gr bullet and I guarantee that it will leave the muzzle subsonic. You can keep dropping the charge until a bullet sticks in the barrel if you like. I loaded some round balls in a 45-70 that came out of the barrel going 450 fps and they sounded like a cap pistol going off and were accurate at 50 feet in my back yard try it as its a lot of fun.

[myfriendis410]

If you are looking for a heavy, high b.c. cartridge/load, why not something like either the .405 Winchester or the 40/65? A Ruger #1 would be my first choice, but I don't think either chambering is offered so it would be a rebarrel. Just my $.02.

[uscra112]

He wants high subsonic and low noise, though. Not knocking the H&R, but he may want a longer barrel to get velocity with low muzzle pressure.

It occurs to me that, if he's gonna shoot from a blind over bait, (coyotes), making a tire-stack "quietener tunnel" might be in order. I used one at my last residence in MIchigan, and am gathering the old tires to make one for where I am now. Kinda restricts your field of fire, but it really suppresses the muzzle blast without being illegal.

[leadman]

I have a Pedersoli Rolling Block in 40-65 with a 1 in 18 twist. If I remember and find time I'll try some light loads in it and report the outcome.

The Lyman Snover I cast for it is usually just over 400grs. I also have and assortment of 41 cal. pistol boolits I have played with in the past.

[Bert2368]

The H&R site lists the buffalo classic as having a 1 in 20 twist. Should be adequate... I find them listed on the auction sites for around $280 to 300.00 plus shipping. Don't think I could get a cheaper platform than that.

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone!

[fireball168]

Primary use will be subsonic loads using cast bullets, 350 to 500 gr. is my best guess, and I'd prefer as heavy and long as possible.

A handi rifle or a TC with the right barrel could also do the trick (and be useful for something else after this project).

We sell Encore barrels in 458 BFG - a SOCOM with a rim on it for extraction.

Form from Starline 50 Alaskan brass in one pass through the sizing die after rough trimming.

Lots of data out there for subsonic SOCOM.

If you don't mind picking the rebated rim SOCOM cases out with your fingernail, you can shoot them as well.

[Bert2368]

fireball-

Glad I asked here, I'm learning things. Thanks, but it looks like your barrels are limited to 26.5". They also cost more for just the barrel than a complete H&R rifle!

If I could use a suppresor and this wasn't right before Christmas they would be a good solution...

If I had more money to throw at the project, my options would be greatly increased. I have found several 45-70 rifles with barrels in the 34"- 36" range. Costs go up to multiple thousands of dollars for "Quigley Sharps" & etc.

[olafhardt]

My 500 s&w handirifle is fairly quite with a reversed modern minie ans 6.4 grains of unique. This Iee boolit weighs 365 grains. It may be easy to get this as a double ended wadcutter weighing over 400 grains. I like the reversed wc seated flush to take up space. I don't think this is a minimum load and another powder may work better. This load seems to hit pretty hard.

[nanuk]

Olafhardt:

reversed? as in seated upsidedown, so as to have a large hollowpoint? a la 38HBWC upsidedown?

[olafhardt]

You got it Nanuk. One of my projects is going to just saw pieces off of 1/2" rods of various metals and shoot them. With 1/2" bore do uou need expandtion? Also you could have a lot of powder capacity with the boolit only seated 1/4 " since it doesn't have to feed or withstand recoil. The 500s&w handirifle is brutally strong as it is designed for the huge backthrust of a large case with a SAAMI pressure of over 60.000 psi. I reccomend it as a great toy. Them reversed minies is cool.

[bearcove]

I have a .436 lyman mold that is like a loverin. It has a small flat point. Only the bottom band is .436, other drive bands are all .430. Weighs 365gr. I've kept it for when I get a .444. Someday I'll get an Encore barrel for it.

[grouch]

I haven't worked on sub - sonic, but my rolling block 45 - 70 with 34" bauska barrel has always been very accurate
Grouch

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Have a 32 1/2" 1-18 twist caliber .45-70 (long throated) on a navy arms roller. Have shot up to 520 grainers with BP & 5744 & it shoots as accurate as I need. Barrel was a 34" blank from Bauska. Never tried to get below 8 grains Unique but 8 grains did not strain the ears at all.
Mike in Peru

[leftiye]

The requirement for a heavy boolit doesn't make sound reduction any easier. If you can get along with lighter boolits or even round balls, sound can be got down to nothing almost. A 200 grain .45 has a lot of killing power (unless you're going to be shooting bear). This sounds like a .45 Colt handi rifle to me. Or .454 as was mentioned (just lengthen the .45 Colt chamber). The smaller the case, the less powder will do the job, the less powder, the less the pressure at the muzzle.

Put a big expansion chamber around the barrel, and vent the bore just about 8 to 10 inches from the breech maybe (just kidding) less pressure at the muzzle..

[torpedoman]

The only Mausers that I'm familar with that were converted to 45-70 were the Siamese. They have a weird, angled magazine.....

I had read an article years back about one of the Enfields converted to 45-90. If it'll handle the 90, it'll handle the shorter 45-70. Maybe this would be possible with a Mosin-Nagant as well.

Sub-sonic with a 500gr boolit will make follow through critical if you're going to hit anything. I recall that as being something Paul Matthews mentioned in his writings about the 45-70.

Rebarreling a Ruger #1 might be the way to go.

gun smith in springcreek nevada did a 45-70 conversion on a 91-30 looked real nice did not know the customer/user.

[timbuck]

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/bullets_ballastics/long_barrel_velocity.htm

From Lilja barrels. Not slow, but interesting information.

[BAGTIC]

"I am thinking fairly short range- 50-100 yards will do. Even with a high BC, something like this will have a trajectory like a rainbow."

Was this a typo? At that range even a rock wouldn't have a trajectory like a raibow. What kind of predators are you expecting? Bears? Wolves? It seems like overkill. Any heavy for caliber pistol bullet should do the job silently at subsonic velocity. Use fast burning pistol/shotgun powder.

With fast burning powders a barrel as long as a telephone pole is not necessary.

[Bane]

it sounds like what you -want- is a De Lisle carbine

http://www.valkyriearms.com/images/delisle1.jpg

.45 ACP, renowned for its accuracy and just how quiet it is, and overall, very easy to build as surplus .303 actions are virtually everywhere. Bolt just needs to be shortened and the chosen .45 barrel fitted to the receiver, machining the old barrel chamber/thread as a barrel nut to hold the supressor and .45 barrel in

can be scoped, wickedly accurate to 100 yards and makes the same sort of sound as a billiard ball dropped onto wet concrete

*Edit*

Pictured is not mine but i do have one under construction at the moment :)

[Nobade]

It hasn't been mentioned on this thread yet, but a '96 Mauser 6.5X55 loaded with less than 2 grains of Bullseye or Clays and the 170gr. cruise missle boolit cast from pure lead is very quiet and the penetration is something you have to see to believe. My Beeman R9 air rfle is louder.

A regular 45-70 Handi Rifle firing a 500gr. pure lead boolit over 1.5gr. of the same powders does very well too.

[Bert2368]

Nobade-

Exactly. My state forbids silencers. But not subsonic rounds out of a barrel long enough to run the gas pressure down to near silent levels.

http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/arcane1.html

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/small_charges.htm

http://www.recguns.com/Sources/VIIE7.html

[Whiterabbit]

My state too, which got me thinking.

My REAL interest in quiet guns really is 99% to do with the range, and 0% for the field. FUn engineering experiment.

So a silencer is illegal, fine. What about one that is detached? Is it possible to build one that is effective, but large enough to bolt to a tripod and shoot THROUGH, kind of like a chronograph? Set up at the range during cease fire, have at it. It's not attached to the gun.

[mroliver77]

Depending on what you want to kill. I think a 30-30 or a 300 whisper type with heavy boolit, longer barrel and fast powder would work well. Even a boolit at 1000fps makes so much less racket than a supersonic load. I would think a 200fr wadcutter for the .30 cal would work well.

If you want true "cats sneeze" we are talking mosin with long barrel, heavy boolits and the fastest powder available loaded to just get boolit out of barrel. A 220gr .30 cal at 600fps still packs a wallop!

I fill cases with melted lead. I then drill a hole down to the flash hole and clean out flash hole. Even 45-70 needa enough neck open to seat the boolit. Or I am saying find out where the boolit base sets in case and fill to this point with lead. Drill down to the flash hole with a 1/4" or slightly larger bit. This give a lot less case capacity, allows a nice powder column and burns all powder before boolit moves much. There is less gas to exit the barrel this way. In .223 I got down to .5 gr Bulls Eye for a silent load.


I catch a lot of flak about this method and much advice on other methods. I have shot many this way with no problems. Somebody said they tried epoxy and it worked well.

Paco Kelly did a couple articles on quiet loads and reported rolling a yote with heavy 45-70 in his urban back yard.
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/small_charges.htm
J

[RMulhern]

No! I don't don't any of the ODDBALL schitt!!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bane: best pic of a .45 Enfield I have seen. Can you direct us to other pics of that gun?

Bert: This is what you need to be looking at. I know you can't have a supressor but you can build a rifle like this in .45 ACP from a mauser action or the Lee Enfield action for around $300. And with the .45 ACP you can easily down load it to be subsonic, and a .230-250 gr boolit will knock out ground hogs and other undesirables with authority.

Look in the "Special Projects" section of this site for more info on these conversions. There are several of us doing them right now.

Randy

[Nobade]

I have a 45 ACP rifle with a 17 inch barrel. It's not terribly quiet, even though normal loads are subsonic. A 45-70 with 500gr. bullets is way quieter at the same muzzle velocity. So is the '96 Mauser or Mosin Nagant. Powder charges are about the same, but the rifle rounds seem to have a lot less muzzle pressure. Especially the long barrel ones.

[Dave Bulla]

You might also try the Lyman collar button bullets.

They weigh 145 grains and with about 10 grains of Unique shoot very well out of my 1895 Marlin. They have a bit of a crack but they are not very loud and you could easily drop the charge to get what you want. Not sure if you are wanting the heavy bullets because they use up power and shoot quieter or if you are looking for a lot of penetration for a given speed but a 145 collar button can be compared to a 38 special for power.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/DaveBulla/Marlin35rematrange008.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y43/DaveBulla/Marlin35rematrange009.jpg

[Bert2368]

Not sure if you are wanting the heavy bullets because they use up power and shoot quieter or if you are looking for a lot of penetration for a given speed
Both- I'd like to use up all the heat I can, hit as hard as possible while avoiding supersonic crack and start with as little air volume in the case as possible.



I fill cases with melted lead. I then drill a hole down to the flash hole and clean out flash hole. Even 45-70 needa enough neck open to seat the boolit. Or I am saying find out where the boolit base sets in case and fill to this point with lead. Drill down to the flash hole with a 1/4" or slightly larger bit. This give a lot less case capacity, allows a nice powder column and burns all powder before boolit moves much. There is less gas to exit the barrel this way.

Looking more at smaller volume cases now, and also considering 45-70 with fillers such as COW or shot buffer above the tiny subsonic charge in that big ol' case. The idea of mostly filling a few dedicated cases with Lead or epoxy is certainly valid, but I'd like to load several hundred of these at a time for practice and testing...

[BAGTIC]

A long barrel is not necessary for low muzzle pressure in a 45-70. at those low velocities. Just use a fast burning powder. The pressure will peak in the first couple of inches and then drop rapidly because of the large expansion ratio.

The more powder is burned the more gas to dispose of. The slower the powder the more pressure is necessary to make it burn efficiently.

[longbow]

I am toying with a similar idea for .44 mag using very long/heavy boolit of around 400 grs. or better.

I turned up an interesting design by Dr. Richard Gunn for a 480 gr. boattail boolit designed for subsonic use. Rifling twist of 1:16" will stabilize it at 900 FPS:

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA7.html

Just scroll down the page a little and there it is.

I have scaled the design to 0.434" and 406 grs. I will redesign some so that it can be seated to "normal" depth with a crimp groove which will leave lots of lead sticking out of a .44 case!

For .45-70, I suspect the design is to be seated deep to reduce case capacity for easier subsonic reloading.

The same design scaled to 0.434" as I have done should work well in .444 Marlin too.

I will be interested to see which cartridge and boolit you choose.

Longbow

[yosemite]

years ago I saw a type 38 Arisaka action, barreled with a 50 cal blank, chambered for a shortened 348 case , loaded with 50 bmg bullets, it was set up as a single shot, and have no Idea what velocity it was loaded to, but seemed intriguing