1881 Marlin in .45-70 Needs Barrel or Lining

[longbow]

I was given an 1881 Marlin that has seen some better days. The action is in decent shape but the barrel is rusted out with rifling barely visible and lots of pits. Also, it is missing the wood.

So, I guess I was given part of an 1881 Marlin.

Anyway, I am debating what to do with it. It would be nice to make it into a shooter again whether .45-70 or other caliber.

Obviously it could be re-barreled and I could probably find or make a buttstock and forearm for it.

I am more interested in having the barrel lined preferably in .45-70 but I am not sure there is enough meat in the original barrel to bore it for a .45-70 liner.

Does anyone know if this can be done or who can advise?

Even if .45-70 is not doable, maybe it could be lined and chambered to a smaller caliber. That would at least retain the original octagon barrel.

Any comments or advice would be appreciated.

Longbow

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes I believe it can be done on your existing barrel. I don't think the actual liner is that thick in the walls. The actual wall thickness of the liner does not need to be much more than about .02-.030 as it is completely supported by the barrel.

If you get a current copy of either Rifle or Handloader magazine there is several guys who advertise this service.

Some just rebore and some reline, obviously there is a difference and you need the outfit that relines.

I have considered having my .44 mag Marlin relined with, a 1in20 twist liner.

Either that or buying a.357 or .41 barrel and havin it rebored. Probably won't do either, but it is something to think about.

Your's is a much more interesting project.

Randy

[longbow]

I got hold of Redman's Rifling and Reboring but he doesn't do the .45-70 so I will have to look for someone else.

I did some internet surfing this morning but didn't find any info on the 1881 and reboring/lining.

Since the action is long for .45-70, if I change caliber I would likely go with something like .40-60 or similar.

I will keep checking.

Longbow

[Ragnarok]

Have you shot it yet?

Sometimes crappy looking bores shoot very good.

[longbow]

No, I have not shot it as it has no wood.

The bore is not just bad, it is really, really bad. Not sure about the chamber but will try to get a look into it.

The rest of the action appears to be in quite reasonable shape. I suspect it was used little and never cleaned at all then left with BP fouling in it.

Longbow

[longbow]

I might be able to get a new barrel on it but it is a tapered octagon barrel so may be hard to duplicate without significant expense.

Mind you, if it is being restored to shooting condition rather than restored to original condition that may not apply.

Green Mountain has tapered octagon barrels in Winchester profiles so that my be the same or at least close.

Not sure about the frame. It seems very slim with not a lot of room for even .45-70 so I would hazard a guess at medium frame. Is the frame size identified any way? Does the serial number identify the frame size?

All I have is barreled receiver with full length mag tube ~ no other "bits".

Longbow

[longbow]

Oh yes, it is a complete receiver with all the guts and they appear to be in quite good shape with little wear.

[Dan Cash]

Check out John Taylor, a member here. He has relined a 95 Win. for me and the job is first rate. Contact:

Taylor Machine
14119 Military Rd E.
Puyallup, WA 98374
253-445-4073

john@johntaylormachine.com

[GARCIA]

Been toying with the same idea on a newer Marlin/Winchester.
Found these for you.

I did have McGowen reline a 1886 Winchester years ago.
That thing is down right scary accurate!!
Might check with them also.

Tom


Classic Barrel & Gunworks
339 Grove Av.
Prescott, Az. 86301
http://cutrifle.com/
928-772-4060

Redmans Rifling and Reboring
Randall Redman
189 Nichols Rd.
Omak, Wa. 98841
509-826-5512

Siegrist Gun Shop
Al Siegrist
8752 Turtle Rd.
Whittemore, Mi. 48770
989-873-3929

Starlight Enterprises
Randy Selby
PO Box 221
Wapiti Wy. 82450
307-587-3581

Sonny France
4932 Grandview
Okemos Mi 48864
517-349-4532

Norm Johnson
243 4th Av NW
Turtle Lake ND 58575
701-448-9188

Taylor Machine ,John Taylor
14119 Military Rd E.
Puyallup, WA 98374
john@johntaylormachine.com
253-445-4073
http://www.johntaylormachine.com

[GARCIA]

Might try here for some wood:

http://www.precisiongunstocks.com/index1.html


http://www.thegreatamericanwestcompany.com/id37.htm


http://macongunstocks.com/

Tom

[missionary5155]

Howdy Longbow
I have used Taylor´s and have been very happy with his excellent work.
Mike in Peru

[Jon K]

longbow,

Sounds like you need to identify whether it's a large frame or small frame 1881. You need the large frame for 45-70 or 40-60(barrel@reciever 1.120"). Small frame is 38-55/32-40(barrel@reciever.988")

Jon

[Jon K]

Bill,

check post#7 he's not sure???

[longbow]

Jon K:

If being .45-70 means it has to be a large frame then so it is. I wasn't sure whether they were available in .45-70 in large and small frame is all. It is original in .45-70 and is so marked on the barrel.

If I can get it lined and retain .45-70, that is what I would prefer to do.

GARCIA:

Thanks for all the addresses and links!

I have tried Redman but he doesn't do .45-70.

I had looked for others but hadn't found any specifics so far. I have some places to check out now!

Wood shouldn't be a problem to have shipped to Canada but I am not sure about the gun being shipped to the States and back so will have to check on that one. While Canadian gun laws are rather strict, it is not a problem to import ammunition, reloading supplies or gun parts. However, it is an issue for US companies to export and many will not export anymore.

As far as I know as long as they have an FFL they are good to go. Not sure exactly how it may apply to a gun owned by a non-citizen (me) when shipped for repair/modification.

Not much is easy anymore.

Got some work to do here now to check out these contacts and shipping.

Thanks for all the replies.

Longbow

[John Taylor]

The last gun I tried to ship to Canada got seized by U.S. customs. They were ready to throw me in jail for exporting without an export license even tho the rifle came from Canada to be worked on. Took almost 6 months to get the rifle back to the owner and I got a one time waiver from the state dept and didn't end up in jail. Now I'm "gun shy" about working on anything from out of the U.S. The new homeland security has changed the laws and it has hurt business.
I have installed liners on the 1881 and also have made new barrels for the same.

[longbow]

John:

That is what I was afraid of. Oddly, our gun laws in Canada are much stricter than what you have in the States... generally. However, under the new Homeland Security rules it can be very difficult to export anything firearms related from the US and many companies simply won't now.

I was informed several years ago that it was illegal for me to buy reloading supplies in the States but when I asked at stores, US Customs and even Homeland Security I was told "No problem". Then I got a copy of an ATF document from 2002 that says it is illegal for a non US citizen to take ammunition, reloading supplies, even empty brass out of the country! It is not illegal for me to import into Canada, this is a US law preventing non US citizens from taking ammunition, etc. out of the country.

Also, it is illegal for US citizen to export firearms, reloading supplies, even boolits out of the country without an FFL ~ this even applies to empty brass!

So as a for instance, if one of you fine folks offered to send me some boolits to test, you would be in violation of a US federal law unless you have an FFL.

I am not sure what the purpose of these rules are, but that is the way it is.

Good to know the 1881 can be lined though so thanks for that. Where is another matter.

Longbow

[longbow]

I think if I order a barrel or liner from a US company I can have it shipped but I may not be able to drive down and pick it up myself. Kinda weird that way.

A friend of mine has a small gunshop here and he could not order me a scope mount from the States without filling out (and paying substantial cost) a whole bunch of US government documents. I cannot go to the States and pick it up because it is considered a "gun enhancement" but I ordered through Brownells and it arrived no problem. Go figure!

I have heard of Canadians buying items like scopes and shotgun barrels in the States then being stopped at a Homeland Security check point on the way back to the border and having these things confiscated.

They are perfectly legal to bring into Canada, they just cannot be exported by a non US citizen.

Not sure exactly how the rules apply and exactly what all they apply to.

Once I cast a bunch of shotgun slugs for a friend in New Jersey and took them to Washington State (about 45 minute drive) to mail them because the USPS is soooo much cheaper than Canada Post. I stopped in at US customs and showed them because I was leaving them in the country. All they cared about was taxes being paid but let it slide because this was just 25 or so slugs. This was after the ATF rules (which I didn't know about at the time) ~ though I was not leaving the country with them so maybe okay? I don't know.

I am easily confused by bureaucracy.

Longbow

[PatMarlin]

What a pain in the butt.

Your government at work helping lives daily.

[historicfirearms]

Longbow, I know this is an old thread but how did your project turn out. I know where there is a similar 1881 for sale locally. It too has a rough bore, is 45-70, and has no wood or mag tube. Its just calling my name to get it back in shooting order.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

For those in the USA a wide range of excellent quality liners are available from www.trackofthewolf.com (http://www.trackofthewolf.com) , including .45-70 in 5/8in. diameter. They have now stopped exporting them, though.

The Marlin 81 is best kept in the original chambering. It has pretty much the same locking system as the Marlin 39A rimfire, and isn't nearly as strong as the Winchester 86. Here it is on my 92 .32 rimfire. I wouldn't line it for a smaller caliber which relies on higher pressure.



135752

[longbow]

Well, it has been a while! I finally got to this gun and had a gunsmith look at it last fall. He said it wasn't in bad shape and should be shootable and that he had seen worse barrels shoot okay. From the serial number the gun was made in 1886.

I decided I would order a buttstock from Precision Gunworks and did that a few months ago. The wood is quite nice and the buttstock was a pretty reasonable price. I had to do a little fitting but not a bunch and I think I did a reasonable job.

I would have bought a forearm as well so they'd match but Precision Gunworks doesn't make forearms! The existing forearm is beat up a bit but I will remove the finish, steam out the dents I can and sand lightly then refinish. I was told I should get some alkanet root to stain the stock with so have some on order. My plan is to try to stain the forearm a little darker than it is to match the new buttstock as closely as possible then finish both with Tru-Oil. The gun was also missing the rear sight so I bought a Marbles rear sight since 1881 rear sights are very rare and expensive and I have made a plastic buttplate to suit the shotgun butt on the stock because I cannot find an original or repro 1881 buttplate!

The buttstock is now fitted and sanded but raw wood.

Here are pics of the gun:

https://i.postimg.cc/wTCrFxpM/20230509-121638.jpg (https://postimg.cc/ZCLj5S0z)
https://i.postimg.cc/sDQ8pQbb/20230509-121649.jpg (https://postimg.cc/BX3M36SC)
https://i.postimg.cc/tJ7cvYJZ/20230509-121643.jpg (https://postimg.cc/y34nk6Fs)

I made a bullet mould to test the gun with to see if it would shoot. The bullet form is TC and knurled but I didn't do a vey good job on the nose form so wound up with a longer, skinnier nose than planned. It is hard (for me anyway) to single point a small diameter conical flat bottomed hole. In any case they cast okay but came out a little light at 320 grs. I decided to use those bullets anyway. Here is a pic of bullets:

https://i.postimg.cc/3NR4k56Y/Knurled-45-70-bullets.jpg (https://postimg.cc/N93fnVBz)

I loaded up 20 rounds then took the gun to the range yesterday. I wasn't too hopeful about accuracy but was pleasantly surprised! Groups aren't great for 25m but I expected keyholes or really large groups. These aren't small groups but show potential. I loaded 20 rounds with 10 grs. of Unique and had intended to put card and felt wads under the bullets to help seal the rough bore but got distracted by other things before loading then forgot the wads! I decided I would pull 5 rounds, add the wads then reseat bullets so did that but didn't resize the brass so neck tension may have been a bit loose. Those are the group 4 bullets. Here are pics of the targets:

https://i.postimg.cc/vZ6n7ymm/Group-1.jpg (https://postimg.cc/NKBLYWmh)
https://i.postimg.cc/kXH8tGqZ/Group-2.jpg (https://postimg.cc/N51L3gy7)
https://i.postimg.cc/q7sCYGyV/Group-3-and-load-data.jpg (https://postimg.cc/8FC5fMZt)
https://i.postimg.cc/43k9B0KQ/Group-4.jpg (https://postimg.cc/PCyJq2QC)
https://i.postimg.cc/yd7SzSyJ/Group-4-Load-data.jpg (https://postimg.cc/671QrqSw)

Not stellar accuracy but not bad for 1st time out... I think anyway.

I plan on making a new nose form that is RNFP and a heavier bullet of about 375 to 400 grs. to get some more bearing surface. I already made a D-bit for the new nose form but have to heat treat it then machine a new nose form. I will try ACWW (these were ACWW), oven heat treated, possibly paper patched and maybe jacketed if I can't shrink groups some.

I have lightly lapped the bore and it cleaned up better than I had thought. I will probably do some firelapping or some more hand lapping, again lightly, to see if that helps.

All in all I was pretty happy with the results.

Not original anymore but a ressurrected relic that has seen better days. I am hoping I can improve accuracy some without getting the barrel lined.

Longbow

I should add that group 3 is a 5 shot group. One is in the black but hard to see. I must have had the other target black under this one. That makes for 4 holes and one of the holes is a bit oval so two through one hole? Or possibly one round went wild and off the paper? Not sure but 5 rounds were fired.

[John Taylor]

I have heard that Homeland security has changed the rules about export but have not seen it in writing. The place to get liners is T.J's ,
tjsliners1992@gmail.com . Contact them direct and see if they can send out of the US.
I got tired of all the junk going on in Washington state so I moved back to Idaho.

[longbow]

I found an outfit in Ontario that can import T.J.'s liners but it take about 6 months. There is a local gunsmith that says he can line the barrel but he can't get the liners anymore. So if I order a liner from the outfit in Ontario I can get the work done locally.

I am not clear on what US restrictions on import/export of components or guns has to do with safety, security or counter terrorism when it comes to gun parts, reloading components or guns needing gunsmithing. I can understand restricting sales of military style guns, large quantities loaded ammunition or large quantities powder and things like that but I fail to see how sending a gun to a gunsmith in the States for work then having it returned is a threat to national security, and restricting things like cast bullets and brass sales. How many terrorist groups reload and especially with cast bullets I wonder.

Oh well, the rules are there and we have to live with them now. It has made reloading and gunsmithing in Canada much more difficult and costly as most items come out of the States and now many outfitrs just won't ship to Canada due to the bureacracy and cost involved.

So far though I am happy with the results of the first outing and if I can tighten groups up some I will probably not get the barrel lined. If this is the best I get then I guess I have to order a liner and wait. If I could send the gun across the border it would likely be easier and cheaper to get it lined. If I could drive it across I could bring it to your shop! That might go okay but bringing it back might be awkward. It seems that guns and gun related items leaving the US is the sticky part. As far as I understand the rules now is the US dealer/vendor has to have an FFL to export cuns, parts ore reloading components. Non-US residents can bring firearms and ammunition into the States but cannot leave with ammunition and can only be in posession of ammunition in the US if they have a non-resident hunting license or are attending a competition. That may have changed since I read it many years ago.

Oh well!

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Hi Longbow. Good to see I'm not the only person to draw out projects over a decade or more.

At the moment I'm tinkering with a 1885 replica in 45-70, and one of the things I learned the hard way is that the boolit should be at least .001 over groove size.
This 400 grains slug was meant to be the final say in an accurate boolit for the 45-70. Unfortunately it came out .002 oval and would tumble all over the target.
https://i.imgur.com/vQTdgry.jpg

One of these days I'm gonna enlarge the cavity to drop at .460 to .461 before sizing, and see what happens.

I would definitely not give up on your barrel before having exhausted all possibilities, be it paper patching or hand lapping. As long as the lapping is done from the rear, and you take care to not let the lapping tool exit the muzzle, you should be fine. A schultz & larsen guy once told me that they strived to put a slight taper in their barrels toward the muzzle to keep a firm grip on the bullet all the way. I wouldn't worry over the edges of the lands being rounded in the process as long as the bore is uniform or slightly tapered towards the muzzle. The idea of "sharp" rifling is more of a myth than of practical benefit - rounded corners seal better.

Best of luck with shrinking your groups.

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan... yes it has been a long haul. The bore looked horrible when I got the gun and I didn't really have the money to spend so it say in the gun safe neglected for many years. I received it dry and with some light rusting along with the very rough bore. I cleaned and oiled it but then left it.

Several months ago I took it out to look at it and see if it could be made shootable again for not a huge amount of money. I really cleaned up the bore and it looked a little better so I took it to a gunsmith who said he has seen worse shoot okay and that I sould give it a try. It was missing the buttstock and rear sight so not a collector item anyway. I decided to order a buttstock and would have ordered a forearm as well since the existing forearm is a bit dented but Precision Rifle Works only makes replacement buttstocks! So I will refdinish the forearm and try to stain to match the buttstock. I have some alkanet on order.

After the trip to the gunsmith I decided to lap the bore a bit to see if it would clena up some nore and it did... much better than I expected. It is rough with most ouf the roughness seeming to be on the lands but the grooves are not bad. It slugs at 0.462" so I made a mould to suit. As it turns out, the mould is also the right size to try paper patching... I made it undersize so I could knurl up to final size.

So fat I have only shot 20 round and all ACWW bullets. It appears that a wad under the bullet helps so I will load some more an duse wads under some and compare groups. I may also paper patch some to try.

I was thinking I might to a bit of firelapping or more hand lapping but after cleaning the bore looks not horrible so I will leave lapping for now and see how changes to bullet hardness, length, paper patching and maybe jacketed bullets work first.

If I can't get groups shrunk some then I will look at lining the bore. Like I said it is not a collector item anymore anyway so it may as well be a shooter. Liner and installation will run $500 to $600 so not unaffordable and that should make it a good shooter.

Longbow