Bore seasoning myth

[44man]

I had to clean my .500 JRH today to remove some leading because of the funny alloy. I usually get none at all so it was a surprise to find some.
I have contended that seasoning only works on cast iron frying pans and only ONE shot is needed from a gun to rid it of oils and a slippery bore. In all of my years of shooting, one shot was enough.
So I just used Hoppe's in my gun and wiped it dry. NO OIL!
I went down to get it ready for deer tomorrow. I took three and quit, no more was needed.
The first shot is the one on the left, second 1/2" away and the third was a little high because the bag tension changed from the fierce recoil.
Why some need 50 shots to settle and "SEASON" a bore is just silly.
Oil in the bore can throw a shot, then it stops.
This was 50 yards by the way.

[Larry Gibson]

I concur. With a proper load, particularly the lube, "seasoning" or fouling is not necessary. I've also found that with soft cast bullets at top end velocities the best accuracy comes in the 1st 5 - 10 shots from a clean barrel, including the 1st shot.

I know many will disagree but I've not found any rifle or handgun that improved in accuracy with "seasoning". Accuracy may have improved because I became used to shooting that particular firearm. However I've not found a single time where intrinsic accuracy improved. I will state that some load/gun combinations do shoot better with one or 2 foulers but that generally does not fall under the definition of "seasoning".

Larry Gibson

[fryboy]

IMHO seasoning applies more to the original break in than the lite film we leave in the bore or the residue of a lubed round , that would be "fouling" or a fouling shot , many people debate about breaking in a barrel ,one shot clean two shots clean etc , but much like a frying pan once it's seasoned properly cared for it never needs seasoning again ,which isnt to be confused with lubing/fouling the barrel per say

[btroj]

I don't like a clean bore for hunting. I will fire one or two and call it good.
I want a consistent bore condition. Only a few shots are needed to get me there.
What bothers me more is variations in shot placement due to lube properties in cold weather. A warm vs cold barrel can make a difference in some cases.

In the end each of us needs to know what our gun wants or needs.

[Frank]

Here's a little seasoning. :coffeecom

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=123&pictureid=4574

[Bass Ackward]

Try picking up a 22LR someday, with lead, not the plated, and see if the best groups come right with the first 10 shots. My T-Bolt is close with some loads while others need a little more. My 52 just plain won't shoot tenths without a couple of boxes first.

Guess which gun / proper load is the most .... intrinsically accurate? :grin:

That's right. You must have a gun that will perform seasoned (most often made to shoot lead) to see the difference. The T-Bolt won't reach these accuracy levels, so it isn't seen with that gun. And that gun does far better with plated rounds for which it was made. (lower rifling)

I have a 357 that shoots accurately right from clean. Problem is the point of impact changes until it stabilizes. Takes at least 6 cylinders full to over 10 cylinders full depending on the mix. Guess how often it gets cleaned?

But .... that's why I start all newbies out with hard bullets today. Hard bullets require the least amount of knowledge and experience to work the easiest in guns made for jacketed bullets because of the lead strength issue.

So yes, I do have improper loads and improper guns that need seasoning to perform. And some that don't.

Now you understand why and maybe why you don't. :grin:

[sqlbullet]

I am a big fan of boar seasoning. I like a dry rub heavy on the cayenne pepper...

Oh...Bore seasoning. No thanks. I clean them and shoot them on the rare occasion I buy a new gun.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

A number of first class barrel makers have their own ideas of the routines to break in their barrels. I have never understood that advice to be anything other than experience based (theirs), and as a very minor foil for the occasional crummy barrel, or perhaps crummy barrel owner. Many used the same steel and manufacturer. The advice was not involved in "seasoning", but rather in fouling control and accuracy. Even earlier, famous and respected barrel makers did not speak of "seasoning" the barrel but did give instructions on the care and maintenance of their barrels. H.M. Pope comes to mind readily, and his famously winning lube included mutton fat and steam oil, among other things. Sam Colt never recommended seasoning his Colts either as far as I am aware, nor Mr. Winchester his Rifles.

The first time I ever heard of "seasoning" a barrel was in reference to the advertising of the first introduction of that Bore Butter carp. Of course it was a concept all understood because of Ma's old cast iron cookware that was still in use when Mr. Disney invented TV's Daniel Boone of the screen. Simple minds accepted that. But very quickly BB was quickly reformulated in part because even deer with sinusitis would shy away from a loaded rifle upwind 300 yards away because of the wintergreen stink at least. AND HUNTERS SOON LEARNED THAT. The ingredients were the cheapest and most common at the time. What has Yellow # 2 food coloring have to do with barrel lube. Well, we know, NADA ! Truth is, there are many good M/L lubes out there and most go back to our Forefathers. The cleaning part of the rifle's use is mostly what they lacked. So there it is:modern marketing well perfected by the time of introduction of a stinky, yellow grease in a plastic tube. Kind of like smelling a rutty old buck at 300 yards in reverse.

Most educated shooters of the 22 rimfire do not talk of "seasoning". But they do understand the necessity of cleaning a barrel when known accuracy goes south, how to do that without damaging the tender bore and chamber and crown, and they know what it takes to relube the barrel back to shooting consistency. And that is different for each barrel , especially our high PSI lead alloy bullet guns. And the lube is critical as you know of WOLF's soft lube and Winchesters wildcats very hard, varnish like lube, besides the other manufacturing differences.

Now I don't often speak of this mostly because of Grandmother's beautiful , pristinely seasoned # 8 Griswold skillett frying baloney, getting seasoned one more time.

BvT .

[44man]

One or two shots is all that has ever been needed from any gun I have ever owned. I always shoot some before hunting with any gun except the muzzle loader but fired caps after drying the bore works. Rust issues if the guns are left loaded and a muzzle loader is considered empty if not capped.
This is not break in, just getting any lube out of the bore. Since I did not lube the JRH, the first shot was where I wanted it.
I will say I was surprised that it was because it usually takes one shot.

[Frank]

With Hoppes the first shot is bang straight dead center. Your point is well taken.

[Larry Gibson]

Well Bass, I've shot a lot of match .22s (M52s, M40Xs and several other generic match rifles in the Army's inventory) rifles over many years. Never had any of them shoot any of the lead bullets from base Rem/Win/CCI math stuff to the real expensive German stuff. Never had a single shot not go to group including the "sighters" out of clean barrels. That is in 50 ft matches and 50 and 100 yard matches. Never saw a single one of those match .22LRs that shot any better after a couple boxes of ammo through them in a match. The 1st 10 shot score was the same as the last 10 shot score after quite a few 10 shot strings in between.

If a M52 starts shooting better after a couple boxes of ammo I'd bet it was the shooter who was shooting better (more practice and used to the rifle after 100+ shots) and not the rifle.

Just based on my observations.

Larry Gibson

[white eagle]

I always thought the barrel seasoning,break in was a line of b.s.
shoot 2 clean,shoot 3 clean up to ten if you want but me I am going to make loads and shoot
barrel makers want you to try to get out of accuracy problems and complaint by saying you didn't follow their break in guidelines

[Frank]

I did the break-in with the Lee. Remember? I did shoot and clean for 15 rounds with a PB.
I was hoping break-in would cure leading. Maybe it did! I'm going to slug the BFR. I have over a thousand rounds through it and now I am breaking it in and slugging the barrel! If there is any constriction I will shoot it out by lapping. I ordered an LBT lapping kit and maybe in 15 rounds it will be dimensionally perfect. Maybe by the next thousand rounds! [smilie=1:

[subsonic]

I am becoming less and less a fan of firelapping.

[fryboy]

one thing to consider when bring up ancient makers seasoning ..or lack of - back then they didnt use petro chemicals or even soap [gasp] to clean their all black powder fired loads ... face it a new barrel has millions of microscopic umm burrs ( for lack of a better word ) shooting ,and especially with j-words, basically fire laps this smoother ,both from the projectile and from the powder , most will agree that smooth barrels clean easier or else people wouldn't pay the extra money or effort to hand lap a barrel , leaving me to believe that smooth bores should also shoot better - especially with lead , barrels to me have always held a mystery that i can only equate to courting a woman - even twin women may not like the same type of guy etc much akin to why my brother's and my twin rifles prefer different loads/pressures/projectiles ( at least one pair is consecutively serial numbered as well suggesting that they possibly were finished by the same tools/workers )
does anyone recall the moly'd bullet craze and the fact that it took several shots to "settle in" from a clean bore ?

[TXGunNut]

Seasoning? Not unless it has "LODGE" on the bottom. Smoothing a bore with j-bullets or burnishing or even polishing? Maybe. Fouling a gun that refuses to shoot clean, rarely but most definitely. I have a backup rifle (M77) that is at its best only when it's cold and dirty. Named it after an old girlfriend. She's a 2MOA rifle clean, 1MOA after 10-12 rounds.

[warf73]

I've got several rifles that once you have shot them once or twice(after cleaning them) at most there back to dead zero. I would call what your talking about "fowling the barrel".

You say seaon a barrel I think NEW barrel. But thats just me, and I've never bought into the whole barrel break in / seasoning gig. Not since I've gotten older and wiser :)

[Bret4207]

I think it depends on the gun as much as anything else. You might have 10 that don't seem to show a preference and then one that needs 10 or 15 shots to settle in with a different lube.

Once again, too many experiences saying, "Yes, with some guns.", to call it a myth or simply say it's hogwash.

[subsonic]

My .22s, including an Anschutz that I used to own, all need a few shots with expensive ammo to group the best. Oddly, after a few shots of good ammo has layed down a nice layer of lube, a few rounds of cheap ammo will group beeter for the first few shots.

I think it has more to do with the lube than anything else, because my rifles that shoot jacketed do not shoot better, usually grouping the first 2 or 3 shots best from a clean, cold barrel. It seems like the better quality the barrel, the less this matters. Could be relative to stress in the barrel causing a shift as it heats up.

[subsonic]

Some people will even tell you a cold shooter is throwing the shots, not a cold clean barrel.

I always patch out all oils before shooting my guns.

[1Shirt]

Like a lot of others obviously, I want to hunt with a rifle that has had a couple of rounds thru it and not cleaned.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Frank]

44man's shooting is of course superb. The idea of 3 rings looks good too. With the largest bore I wonder if there is any constriction. I haven't checked the BFR's.

[saz]

Frank, how is that heads up red dot working out? That is a 475 it's mounted on isnt it?

[ss40_70]

i think a lot of the debate lies in the differance of opinions on what a clean bore realy is .
i clean 2 ways . the first what i consider maintenence cleaning that is just a couple snug patches and a oiling
the second is an all out effort with solvents brushes and many many tight patches till i am satisfied everything is gone but clean shiny steel .
my experiance has been that the maintenance cleaning has little effect on acuracy the next time i shoot .. maybe 1-3 rounds at most and most times not even that .
however when going for the all out super clean i have mixed results , the rifles with the super great as new bores dont seem to take as much fouling to get back in shape as do those with not perfect bores
my bpcr rifles on the other hand seem to need the same 2 or 3 fouling shots either way i clean , but for some odd reason the first couple times after a super cleaning job on them the bore doesnt seem to clean as easily an when its well " seasoned "

[Frank]

saz:

Frank, how is that heads up red dot working out? That is a 475 it's mounted on isnt it?
Good question. I just put the Pan-V on for the pic. I'll give it a good test with the .475. I used the Matchdot for the group.

[Lloyd Smale]

heres my take on it and its a bit confusing. I got the theroy of bore seasoning from john linebaugh and he knows a bit more about handguns then most of us. He claims a gun wont start shooting its best groups until you get at least 50 or so rounds through it and if you switch lubes you need to start over. Now back in the day i tested that theroy on a couple guns. I took them with there best loads and proceded to shoot lots of groups. Those two guns did respond better to more rounds. It wasnt a big differnce but there was an improvement. I was sold. Well so i thought. I remember a couple years ago when this same post was done i kind of got into an argument with 44man about it. I again tried it. this time with three differnt guns (none of the original two) What i got was one that improved one that for all practical purposes stayed the same and one that go worse. Go figure. Bottom line was that none of the results were so drastic as to really say either way. I do know that you wont find many competitive black powder shooters who will shoot a match with a clean barrel and i do know for a fact that many or should i say most of my guns will shoot fliers for the first couple shots until they get a bit of fouling in them. Either that or im a poor shooter on the first couple shots!! Would i insist that seasoning helps accuracy. No would i say it didnt No. I think it depends more on each individual gun then making a blanket statement either way. Onlly thing i will say is John does know more then me and he doesnt have one iota of bs in him and if he says something you can usually take it to the bank.

[btroj]

I think Lloyd is rift- find what works for your gun. Each one of them.
I never go hunting with a clean barrel, I want a few rounds thru it just to make sure.
I don't ever run oil patches down my barrels. I use solvent to clean, then dry them. Have never had rust.
I just prefer to not clean my guns every time out. They don't s em to need it and insure makes things easier.

[44man]

I screwed up something when I posted and it is gone with the wind! :confused:
John Linebaugh sure knows guns but much sounds like "break in" to me. Something I have very little use to do with most good guns shooting from the get go.
Now I CLEAN a gun when I do it. I start with Hoppe's, brushes and a lot of patches---looks clean but not so, there is carbon left so I use M-Pro 7 to remove all carbon until a patch is white. That stuff will lift carbon from the pores of steel. Seasoning might be considered carbon stuffed pores. I remove it.
At no time has it needed more then one shot to put the rest of the shots in the group. I do not oil stainless guns because I don't store them.
LUBE CHANGES! I have tested lubes forever and never needed a bunch of shots to settle. Alox ash needs cleaned out but good lubes register immediate changes for me and that might just be me.
Here is what I mean. I was testing a hard lube against Felix. I shot 5 shots and moved to Felix for the next 5. Did I need 50 shots? I can shoot CR or other of Lar's lubes and move to Felix with no change. I can shoot LBT lubes with no change. Group size or POI can change but I do not need to clean or season between lube changes. I have hundreds of targets with different lubes and each exhibits a certain group size for that lube but the next lube will either open or close groups with no extra shots. Sounds strange for sure! :mrgreen:
And Lloyd and I have never "argued" in that sense, just discussions, presenting views and since none of us has the same things happening, it is knowledge in the end. All have different results.

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont want to misquote anyone so ill add this. John never said that it takes 50 rounds after changing lube. Just that changing lube will change things until the gun settles back in. No doubt lube has an effect as group size can double sometimes just with a lube change. Never meant to insinuate we argued. Far from it. Ive enjoyed hashing things out with you for years. Your one of the core posters on here that ive learned a few things from. We may not allways agree but i do know that both of our opinions come from actuall experience not someone elses. I think the bottom line here is we just have to go back to something we both know. Theres nothing consistant about much of anything and every gun is its own animal. Only way youll really find out what side of this applys to your gun is to actually test it.
I screwed up something when I posted and it is gone with the wind! :confused:
John Linebaugh sure knows guns but much sounds like "break in" to me. Something I have very little use to do with most good guns shooting from the get go.
Now I CLEAN a gun when I do it. I start with Hoppe's, brushes and a lot of patches---looks clean but not so, there is carbon left so I use M-Pro 7 to remove all carbon until a patch is white. That stuff will lift carbon from the pores of steel. Seasoning might be considered carbon stuffed pores. I remove it.
At no time has it needed more then one shot to put the rest of the shots in the group. I do not oil stainless guns because I don't store them.
LUBE CHANGES! I have tested lubes forever and never needed a bunch of shots to settle. Alox ash needs cleaned out but good lubes register immediate changes for me and that might just be me.
Here is what I mean. I was testing a hard lube against Felix. I shot 5 shots and moved to Felix for the next 5. Did I need 50 shots? I can shoot CR or other of Lar's lubes and move to Felix with no change. I can shoot LBT lubes with no change. Group size or POI can change but I do not need to clean or season between lube changes. I have hundreds of targets with different lubes and each exhibits a certain group size for that lube but the next lube will either open or close groups with no extra shots. Sounds strange for sure! :mrgreen:
And Lloyd and I have never "argued" in that sense, just discussions, presenting views and since none of us has the same things happening, it is knowledge in the end. All have different results.

[robertbank]

Great discussion. Perception can become reality. I wonder if it is a case where if we believe in something we tend to look for proof of our belief. Personally I haven't noticed much difference either way but I also acknowledge that my shooting ability has more to do with my results then anything mechanical involved with the firearm. That said I seem to always shoot a"fouling shot" before trying for groups. Go figure. I guess old habits are hard to break.

Take Care

Bob

[Iron Mike Golf]

I have seen the amount of copper fouling and the rate that it accumulates in a new barrel decrease as the round count of jacketed bullets goes up. Something was changing. I have also seen groups tighten (again, shooting jacketed) as this was going on. Stabilized at around 200-250 rounds. Not scientific. Just an anectdotal observation.

[Larry Gibson]

Apparently, there is a difference of opinion on what is "seasoning" and what is "breaking in" a barrel.

The two are very different in my opinion. "Breaking in" a barrel is obviously that which is done to a new barrel. "Seasoning", on the other hand (to me anyways) means shooting a number of rounds in a already broken in but clean barrel to "foul" the bore so it supposidly shoots better.

Larry Gibson

[Lloyd Smale]

I do usually shoot a 100 jacketed bullets through a gun before i start with cast but it doesnt allways happen that way and i guess ive got to say ive never ran into problems when i didnt. Just another old habbit thats hard to break.
I have seen the amount of copper fouling and the rate that it accumulates in a new barrel decrease as the round count of jacketed bullets goes up. Something was changing. I have also seen groups tighten (again, shooting jacketed) as this was going on. Stabilized at around 200-250 rounds. Not scientific. Just an anectdotal observation.

[btroj]

I don't consider a round or two "seasoning" as much as just fouli the bore and eliminating residue from cleaning. I figure it gives me a consistane bore condition.
I have never broken in a barrel, I just go and shoot.
I have not proven to myself that a clean barrel in most of my guns throws the first shot, I just don't want to take the chance and the fouling and lube left by a shot or two isn't going to hurt anything. Makes me feel better?

[44man]

I dont want to misquote anyone so ill add this. John never said that it takes 50 rounds after changing lube. Just that changing lube will change things until the gun settles back in. No doubt lube has an effect as group size can double sometimes just with a lube change. Never meant to insinuate we argued. Far from it. Ive enjoyed hashing things out with you for years. Your one of the core posters on here that ive learned a few things from. We may not allways agree but i do know that both of our opinions come from actuall experience not someone elses. I think the bottom line here is we just have to go back to something we both know. Theres nothing consistant about much of anything and every gun is its own animal. Only way youll really find out what side of this applys to your gun is to actually test it.
I respect your findings too but to tell the truth, we agree on a lot. I wish we lived next door. :drinks:

[Frank]

44man:

I was testing a hard lube against Felix. I shot 5 shots and moved to Felix for the next 5.
You can use LBT Blue Soft if your 44 doesn't like hard lube. The group I fired was with LBT Soft. LBT Blue shoots even better! And cases are all clean, not like with Felix lube or BAC or CR or 50/50. 15 minutes in the tumbler and they are clean, run a patch through the bore and not even one speck of leading.

[Lloyd Smale]

one of us would have to move and give up our good deer hunting though!
I respect your findings too but to tell the truth, we agree on a lot. I wish we lived next door. :drinks:

[Frank]

44man:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37783&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1322056362

Some is wrong. That target tells me you can increase the charge with the LBT lube. That will make it group tighter and go faster in the slow twist Marlin. Then you'll be able to shoot the rifle at 100 yards.

[44man]

44man:
http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=37783&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1322056362

Some is wrong. That target tells me you can increase the charge with the LBT lube. That will make it group tighter and go faster in the slow twist Marlin. Then you'll be able to shoot the rifle at 100 yards.
Did not work. I tried.

[Reload3006]

I'll just be honest I am a poor shot.
I Personally believe (since I am a machinist and Tool maker) Think I have some insight in the matter. It would stand to reason if one were to Fire lap in their bore their throat would be eroded from the powder burn way before friction from bullets passing down the bore would change much. So I would say that either a bore is good from the factory or its bad from the factory.

[Bret4207]

I screwed up something when I posted and it is gone with the wind! :confused:
John Linebaugh sure knows guns but much sounds like "break in" to me. Something I have very little use to do with most good guns shooting from the get go.
Now I CLEAN a gun when I do it. I start with Hoppe's, brushes and a lot of patches---looks clean but not so, there is carbon left so I use M-Pro 7 to remove all carbon until a patch is white. That stuff will lift carbon from the pores of steel. Seasoning might be considered carbon stuffed pores. I remove it.
At no time has it needed more then one shot to put the rest of the shots in the group. I do not oil stainless guns because I don't store them.
LUBE CHANGES! I have tested lubes forever and never needed a bunch of shots to settle. Alox ash needs cleaned out but good lubes register immediate changes for me and that might just be me.
Here is what I mean. I was testing a hard lube against Felix. I shot 5 shots and moved to Felix for the next 5. Did I need 50 shots? I can shoot CR or other of Lar's lubes and move to Felix with no change. I can shoot LBT lubes with no change. Group size or POI can change but I do not need to clean or season between lube changes. I have hundreds of targets with different lubes and each exhibits a certain group size for that lube but the next lube will either open or close groups with no extra shots. Sounds strange for sure! :mrgreen:
And Lloyd and I have never "argued" in that sense, just discussions, presenting views and since none of us has the same things happening, it is knowledge in the end. All have different results.

I don't believe it is wise to try and make an absolute rule very often in this game. Myself, I've eaten crow a few too many times to not have learned the lesson. I think in some guns it happens, not all, but enough that it's worth keeping in the back of your mind.

[btroj]

Speaking in absolutes regarding shooting is a poor way to go. Too many variables to use words like never or always.
I don't know if this "seasoning" is a reality or not but I do know that shooting thru a lightly fouled bore almost never is. I do that for hunting as it helps me sleep at note, that is eough for me!