About the onionskin sticky

[montana_charlie]

When I read that The Paper Mill Store has 25% cotton onionskin in stock, I was surprised.

I have been visiting that site for a couple of years, and they originally had 25% and 100% cotton paper. It was (probably) the last remaining stock from Fidelity, and one day all of the 25% stuff up and disappeared from the website.

The last time I looked (several-several months ago) they were still offering 100% cotton onionskin, but it appeared to be of a newer manufacture that the old Fidelity stuff.

Seeing mention of them having 25% cotton (which I use), I had to follow Buckshot's link.

The description says,
" When your projects demand the best quality we can guarantee you arguably the best Onion Skin Paper available. Crafters around the world seek our Onion Skin as the best solution to crafting paper projects requiring acceptance of inks and having the easy folding qualities and strength of a true 9 lb. 100% wood fiber onion skin paper."

There are some reviews on the right-hand side, and some of them come from paper patchers ... who DO like the paper.

But, even there you see that it isn't cotton fiber paper.
The top review states,
"This is a beautiful paper. I was a bit skeptical because I have always used 100% cotton. This is not a substiture or an imitation of 100% cotton. It is something entirely different.'


I personally believe that cotton fiber is not necessary in a good patching paper, and the stuff from The Paper Mill Store is probably an excellent choice.

But just so you know ... although it's 'onionskin', it ain't '25%', and it ain't 'cotton'.


CM

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Good info. Now, do we have a good well qualified traditional patcher who would give it a good test and make his findings known?

I always stayed away from anything but rag or cotton bond of the highest quality I could find when I patched and never went to wood fiber paper at all. It would be intresting to see a test by a current shooter and would likely be very helpful to new patchers/shooters.

BvT

[montana_charlie]

There are a number of 'traditional patchers' who you already know who are using Seth Cole paper. There is no rag content in either of the two weights that are popular for wrapping buillets.

CM

[Buckshot]

...........Re: Montana Charlie's post. Good call and good catch. I was getting a bit frustrated using the search mode on their website, so went out to the shop in skivvies and socks (there's a visual for ya :-)) and pulled out one of the reams I'd purchased a couple years ago (I believe it was) to check the label for a product code. The label states: Fidelity Onion Skin 25% Cotton, Sub. 9 Smooth Finish. Product code: ONSKN9-P. The paper is also watermarked thus: "Fidelity Onion Skin" and under that is: "Rag Content".

I input the code above, and hit search. Nothing was returned so I deleted the "-P". Again, nothing was returned so I deleted the "9" and this time the item I show in the above sticky appeared. My mistake for not clicking on the item for further info, as nowhere does it mention 25% cotton. When you do, it is as Charlie posted, it's 100% wood fiber. I ordered 2 reams, and when I get them I'll do a comparison. In the meantime I'll change the sticky to reflect the new info.

My apologies if anyone jumped up and ordered a couple cases expecting 25% cotton paper :groner:

...............Buckshot

[idahoron]

My ream is marked 25% cotton. When my post on paper patching for muzzleloader was made a sticky the link I had to the paper mill store was for 25% cotton onion skin. If you click on that link now it is the wood fiber.
I am disappointed that paper mill quit selling that paper. I only have one ream of it. Ron

[Baron von Trollwhack]

But it it is nice to be able to advise Newbert and others that the paper available now, and noted by sticky, gives every sign of being an acceptable substitute for the rag/cotton unobtanium bond. The old manual patching skills live on with success!

Bvt.

[powderburnerr]

there is a slight difference between the 25% and 100 % and it only comes into pplay when you blowtube and shoot with a damp bore (not chamber ) and then probably only under match conditions,when the relay is slowed down and the cadence is broken the patch will get wet and the 100% will stand up better than the 25. It would be interesting to see how the wood fibre paper stands up to that circumstance.

[RMulhern]

I use stuff from Office Depot! Seems to work well!

http://farm7.staticflickr.com/6041/6372451099_eaba908566_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6372451099/)
Acespade (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/6372451099/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr

4 650 PP rounds hit at slight upper left and the 720 grainers hit where expected...in the middle! Remaining ammo from two batches I've had loaded for a while. Fired with barrel sights from 100 yds.:bigsmyl2::holysheep .50s just aren't accurate!:groner:

[BABore]

I too was on a quest to find a #9 onion skin with 25-100% cotton rag content. I was tempted by all the PaperMill references to go ahead and just order some. Luckily, I called and emailed them first and found out the same info that MC posted above.

I did find another source for a #9 onion skin at

http://www.papertecinc.com/specPaper.cfm

They kindly sent me some samples and I gave it a try. Didn't much care for it. I wet patch to groove diameter+ and twist the tails. This paper twisted right off with only slight resistance. I could make it work, but it was a PITA for me and my methods.

I had been using a tracing paper from CPP til I ran out. Even dripping wet, I could twist the tail tightly. It ran just over 0.002" thick and dried to about 0.0060 to 0.0065 with two tight wraps on sized grease grooved boolits. I originally bought this at Hobby Lobby, but they no longer carried the same brand. I bought 4-5 other brands of tracing paper that met the thickness requirements. None of them passed the wet twist test. I did connect with some Staedler 100% cotton rag vellum from an office supply. It was a bit thick at 0.003, so I had to resize after wet patching. I use warm water and egg whites for a slight adhesion. The vellum was tough to twist the tail because it was too thick. It works in a pinch I guess.

Today I finally found some of the CPP tracing paper again. It's now listed as Tracing Pad from Carolina Pad. I found mine at one of the few remaining K-Mart's in the area. Two bucks, eighteen for a forty sheet pad. The same tough stuff as before. Carolina Pad has a website where you can buy it from their store. I don't know whether it has a CR content or not, but it works for me and it shoots very well.

[powderburnerr]

actually charlie the older seth cole paper was 100% cotton as well , I have a lot of rolls of it and both the 8 and 7 pound is marked on the label 100% cotton , Dont know about the new stuff never bought any.

[Buckshot]

............I got the 2 new reams of 9lb paper from "The Paper Mill Store" in the Sources for Patching Paper sticky above. This is the 100% wood fiber stuff they currently have. I say currently as the light bulb went off over my noggin that TPMS 'sources' their paper from many places, and some time from now they may stop carrying 9lb or it will come from some other source.

So now this paper is coming from Germany. The first thing I noticed is how much thinner a ream is, vs the 2 reams of the older 25% cotton 9lb I'd bought before. A good 3/8" thinner. I double checked the label and the new stuff does say, "One ream, 500 sheets". Hope you'll forgive me for not actually counting them out. So if 500 of one type is less thick then 500 of the other, it follows that each sheet must be thinner, yes?

And so it is the case. The older water marked, "Fidelity 25% Cotton" paper is .0023"/.0024" thick. This new paper mic's .0016"/.0017" thick. It is very consistent appearing paper. Holding a sheet up to a light it seems to be the same consistency top to bottom and left to right. I haven't tried patching anything with it yet, but hope to give it a try in the next couple days, and will compare it to some slugs patched a few weeks back as I have a few odd slugs left over.

...............Buckshot

[Mooseman]

I must be lucky... Out here in remote Alaska , I went to a small office supply store looking for a suitable Paper to patch with. I found a Tablet of "Air Mail Paper" made By the Eaton Co. that was 100 sheets 7-1/4"x 10-3/8", 9lb. cockle finish, 25% cotton, white paper. It works just fine for me and mics out at .0022 .
Eaton is a div. of Fox River Paper Co. in Appleton, WI.
It cost me $2.00
Rich

[idahoron]

Buckshot, Do you wet patch or dry? Also do you size after you wrap them? I will be interested to see how the 100% wood works out. I have about 600 sheets of the 25% cotton and I am guarding it. Ron

[idahoron]

Mooseman, you got the good stuff right there. I got three tablets of that exact same paper a couple of years ago. It has been my main paper for my muzzleloader. It works great. Mine is water marked with a fox and the words onion skin 25%. Ron

[Buckshot]

...............idahoron, I wet patch, and stretch the paper on well as I roll the boolit up in it.

............... Mooseman, yup, that was my first experience with 9lb Airmail cotton content paper. IIRC on the front cover it will say it was made FOR Eaton by someone else. I too found mine in a stationary store, but as I recall it was a tad over $5 for the tablet. I searched that info high and low and never got anywhere with it. Just checked again:

Fox River Paper Mill Up for Auction

Walden-Mott Corporation 5/13/2008 1:40:50 PM
Stuart B. Millner & Associates, a company that specializes in the liquidation and auction of surplus assets, said that it has been hired by Neenah Paper Inc. of Alpharetta, Ga., to manage the closure of its Fox River Paper mill in Urbana, Ohio.
The 360,000 plus-sq. ft. plant deactivation process includes machinery, equipment and real estate. The mill houses two complete 80-inch wide Fourdrinier-type paper machines that have a combined production capacity of 130 tpd at an operating speed of 1,200 FPM. The mill also has sheeters, embossers, guillotine trimmers and other ancillary equipment associated with the papermaking process.

Everything must go, according to the company. All equipment liquidated is estimated for completion by the fourth quarter of 2008.

And previously:

VICKSBURG — The Fox River Paper Co. was a linchpin of the Vicksburg community for nearly 100 years.

The sprawling mill was the town’s biggest employer and taxpayer — generating nearly $120,000 in annual tax revenue for village coffers.

When the mill closing was announced in January 2001 – the fifth area paper plant to halt operations within a five-month period — Fox River owners declared they wouldn’t sell the property to another paper-product firm.

Many felt that restriction put the village at a disadvantage; instead, the mill was first among the shuttered plants in which space was converted for other uses and building upgrades were completed, including new sewer and water lines, electrical improvements and office and laboratory space.

..............Buckshot

[Mooseman]

...............idahoron, I wet patch, and stretch the paper on well as I roll the boolit up in it.

............... Mooseman, yup, that was my first experience with 9lb Airmail cotton content paper. IIRC on the front cover it will say it was made FOR Eaton by someone else. I too found mine in a stationary store, but as I recall it was a tad over $5 for the tablet. I searched that info high and low and never got anywhere with it. Just checked again:

Fox River Paper Mill Up for Auction

Walden-Mott Corporation 5/13/2008 1:40:50 PM
Stuart B. Millner & Associates, a company that specializes in the liquidation and auction of surplus assets, said that it has been hired by Neenah Paper Inc. of Alpharetta, Ga., to manage the closure of its Fox River Paper mill in Urbana, Ohio.
The 360,000 plus-sq. ft. plant deactivation process includes machinery, equipment and real estate. The mill houses two complete 80-inch wide Fourdrinier-type paper machines that have a combined production capacity of 130 tpd at an operating speed of 1,200 FPM. The mill also has sheeters, embossers, guillotine trimmers and other ancillary equipment associated with the papermaking process.

Everything must go, according to the company. All equipment liquidated is estimated for completion by the fourth quarter of 2008.

And previously:

VICKSBURG — The Fox River Paper Co. was a linchpin of the Vicksburg community for nearly 100 years.

The sprawling mill was the town’s biggest employer and taxpayer — generating nearly $120,000 in annual tax revenue for village coffers.

When the mill closing was announced in January 2001 – the fifth area paper plant to halt operations within a five-month period — Fox River owners declared they wouldn’t sell the property to another paper-product firm.

Many felt that restriction put the village at a disadvantage; instead, the mill was first among the shuttered plants in which space was converted for other uses and building upgrades were completed, including new sewer and water lines, electrical improvements and office and laboratory space.

..............Buckshot

Buckshot,
After reading your post and searching the Internet , I discovered that the Eaton Air Mail paper is now considered "Vintage" and is no longer made . I went back to the little store today and bought the last remaining 4 pads out. They were no longer on sale for 2.00 but now 4.85 each.... I grinned all the way home,
I figure I have enough for about 20,000 PP bullets now !:smile:

Rich

[montana_charlie]

I figure I have enough for about 20,000 PP bullets now !
That's the way to get set up for paper patching.

People used to buy the rifle. Then, the first thing they would get is a mould in a diameter that they thought was appropriate. After that, they would spend the next two years looking for paper that would fill the bill.

It makes so much more sense to find a suitable paper, buy enough to last your entire life, wrap it on bolts and drill bits to find out how much it adds to a cylinder, THEN go buy a mould of the right diameter.

CM

[Baron von Trollwhack]

As many here have suggested to the patching wannabees, "It's the paper,.........."

BvT

[Don McDowell]

The paper thing first is a good way to spin somewheels.
It's pretty hard to go wrong with 9# paper and a 441 slug in a 45 caliber barrel.
Dollars to donuts says that folks have had more headache with nose slump than paper thickness

[idahoron]

I would like to pick you brain on nose slump. We could start another thread. Ron

[Don McDowell]

Between nose slump and trying to run a bullet to long for the twist , those two things cause more problems than .0001 of paper thickness. IMHO.

[idahoron]

I have a front stuffer with a 1-18 twist. I am thinking about a little bigger bullet. I am now using a 385 gr bullet. Ron

[Lead pot]

Here is the paper I use. Some will be tough to find unless you go to a down town office supply store.
I look for the 75% or the 100% cockle finish paper, it is the best.


Southworth 409 DRN is 9# 25% cotton .002”
Southworth 700 CPL .100% .0016
Southworth 29 D 9# 75% cotton .0018
Southworth 8 D 7.5#100% cotton .0018
Bienfang 25# .002 Wal-Mart
Calque .0016 made by Canson Wal-Mart http://search.utrechtart.com/index?Ne=1000&N=4294966875+1216&lc=1&in_dim_search=1&9gtype=search&9gkw=canson%20paper&9gad=8807004068.1&9gag=2240489468&gclid=CLTJy6_B5KwCFacEQAodAFN7KA
Paper Mill .0024 http://www.thepapermillstore.com/?gclid=CJOYmsvC5KwCFYXrKgodZCOWJQ
Helix .0026

This place has just a bout anything you want in paper. http://www.papertecinc.com/specPaper.cfm#ONION

For you guys that like to shoot at the speed of light you might look at the tougher Vellum overlay paper.

[Don McDowell]

Ron what are the bore measurements on your rifle? You might want to go up to a 1.3 inch long bullet.
You may want to take a look at one of the nosepour adjustable moulds available from Old West or Brooks. I've enjoyed the ability to vary bullet length.

[SgtDog0311]

I have a question for you graybeards with PPing. I'm just starting out and the paper composition discussion is all new to me.

Is 100% cotton necessarily better than 25% cotton?

I located a package of Miller Falls Gibralter onion skin that is marked 100% cotton. It's spendy but would last me a long time since I'm only patching one of my hyphens. Don't want to spend extra money if 25% is more available and just as good. Instead of 9# it says "substance 9" and is marked "grain long" and "cockle finish".

[montana_charlie]

I have a question for you graybeards with PPing. I'm just starting out and the paper composition discussion is all new to me.

Is 100% cotton necessarily better than 25% cotton?

I located a package of Miller Falls Gibralter onion skin that is marked 100% cotton. It's spendy but would last me a long time since I'm only patching one of my hyphens. Don't want to spend extra money if 25% is more available and just as good. Instead of 9# it says "substance 9" and is marked "grain long" and "cockle finish".
Everything is relative.
A well-known supplier of BPCR items sells 9lb. onionskin paper for eleven cents per sheet - plus shipping.
How much would it cost you to have that ream of Miller Falls 'unobtainium' delivered to your door?
You don't have to actually tell me, but think about it for yourself.

Then, if you think 25% rag may cost less, that assumes you can ever find any of it.

I would buy the Miller Falls paper if a ream can be had for (say) thirty bucks or less.

CM

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks for the response CM... My real question was 25% vs 100%. Sometimes more (in this case - cotton) does not necessarily mean 'better' and being a PP beginner that's what I didn't know for certain. I do know where both can be obtained, and both are spendy although nowhere near the asking price of our Friends in Sanpoint. Appreciate your putting the cost in perspective. It helps.

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for the response CM... My real question was 25% vs 100%.
I have two reams of (antique) 25% and it works just fine for me ... but I have never used 100%, so I can't say if it would be better, worse, or even noticeably 'different' other than a possible variation in thickness.

As discussed earlier in this same thread, even onionskin paper with wood fiber seems to work okay ...

[SgtDog0311]

Roger that CM... got a friend here local who makes a variety of products work. Just thought if I was starting out I might as well look for what's most highly recommended. I'll watch for some good prices on the 25%. I was picking up that the wood fiber is more abrasive. The 40-63 I'm gonna patch for has a good bore but is about 140yrs old so I alerted to the abrasive part in other posts I've been grazing on recently. Thanks again.

[SgtDog0311]

Anybody ever use 13 lb Corrasable Eatons? I'm calculating it would be 0.0028 thick. If managable it would help me fill to groove size with two wraps with the dimensions I'm working with in an old bore. If anybody has some sheets they'd like to trade for 9 lb onion skin that's 25% cotton I'd like to see how it wraps. From what I see on fleabay the 13# does not come available nearly so much as the 9#.

[montana_charlie]

Anybody ever use 13 lb Corrasable Eatons? I'm calculating it would be 0.0028 thick.
If you need 'thick' paper, regular old inkjet printer paper might do the trick for you.
It certainly wouldn't be hard to try it out.

What kind of barrel dimensions have you thinking this way ... ?

CM

[SgtDog0311]

If you need 'thick' paper, regular old inkjet printer paper might do the trick for you.
It certainly wouldn't be hard to try it out.

What kind of barrel dimensions have you thinking this way ... ?

CM

CM, it's a Marlin Ballard, boresize 0.400 - 0.401 with a groove size 0.410. Two raps of onion skin (0.002) won't get me to groove size but 0.0028 might get me close. I could use several paper options which have been suggested but was hoping to get the onion skin that is 25% cotton, especially if it's less abrasive and if it stretches less, which it seems to, and if it tears less, which it also seems to. I found some Eaton's Light Weight 13# (36-413-10) but the price is out of this world and I don't really know if it is what's needed anyway so thought if anyone had some to trade I could answer that question. Where I did find it they refer to it as 'onion skin' but I don't know... just thinking if it were, it might pose less challenge in the wrap, twist, fold and tearing department for a guy who is just introducing himself to paper patch.

[Lead pot]

John,

What are you using for a bullet diameter unpatched? and what is the reason you want to get it patched to groove? maybe your using smokeless that you want to get it to groove diameter?
To answer what difference is between 25% and 100% cotton???? the answer I will give you is, none as far as the way it shoots.
I use 25%, 75% and 100% and I don't see any difference in accuracy.
I do see a difference in accuracy using 100% translucent cotton Vellum tracing paper. It does not do as well in releasing form the bullet as it clears the muzzle and the accuracy will suffer from that because it does not shred as well and it travels farther with the bullet.
I have never used 100% wood pulp paper so I cant comment on it.
If you look farther up on this page you will see the paper thickness I listed with the paper I use and you will see some Helix paper that you can find in the office chain stores pretty easy and this paper runs about 2.6 thick and it is 100% cotton and it still patches pretty good.

[SgtDog0311]

Lead pot, I'm busted... just talking to my good friend (another member here) on the phone and told him what I was wanting to do and first thing he said is "I think you are on the Black Powder thread". With that small confession/clarification out of the way, you are right, it is smokeless I'm working with for now. Bullet is sized to 0.401. Drop size was 0.0406. My understanding is that I want it bore size, so that was my starting point.

Thanks for the clarification on the 100% vs 25%. I re-read this thread and found it was covered to some extent.

I've got some groove diameter bullets I'll satisfy myself with for now for non-PP shooting but I'll be watching for some Eaton 13# paper while I'm at it. If I don't find any for a reasonable price I'll resort to some bond paper. My buddy had said CM's ink jet paper or something similar would probably work too.

[montana_charlie]

CM, it's a Marlin Ballard, boresize 0.400 - 0.401 with a groove size 0.410. Two raps of onion skin (0.002) won't get me to groove size but 0.0028 might get me close.
So, your rifling is 5 thousandths deep, or a bit less.

My onionskin is (was) made by Eagle, and it adds 5 or 6 thousandths to a bullet's total diameter.
That would be .005" when wet wrapped, and .006" when put on dry.
Compare that to my barrel dimensions. Bore of .450" and groove of .460".

So, my rifling is ~5 thousandths deep (near the breech, at least), and two raps of my paper makes a patch that is 2.5 to 3 thousandths thick.
But, I am happy with the fit, and the paper shreds like it should at the muzzle.

In your position, I would use that onionskin you have until it proves (for some reason) to be less than optimal.
If you are shooting smokeless, I would probably try using a .405" bullet ... and/or the softest alloy you can get away with.


It's great to try to look ahead and cover all eventualities, but it is also possible to make things way more complicated than they have any right to be.

CM

[SgtDog0311]

Thanks for the feedback CM... my buddy is gonna say "that's what I told him". Especially about over-complicating things. I hadn't ruled out trying the 9# but do tend to borrow trouble looking ahead. You think a .405 with 10 or 11 bhn would be ok then? Appreciate it!

[Lead pot]

John.

I'm going to give you some friendly advice.
Forget about using smokeless in that Ballard. Here is what was thought to be a safe smokeless load in one.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0768.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0768.jpg.html)

[montana_charlie]

Thanks for the feedback CM... my buddy is gonna say "that's what I told him". Especially about over-complicating things. I hadn't ruled out trying the 9# but do tend to borrow trouble looking ahead. You think a .405 with 10 or 11 bhn would be ok then? Appreciate it!
Truthfully, after looking at the picture posted by Lead pot I don't think I'm willing to provide any more advice along this path.

I guess I have tended to become too mellow about the use of smokeless by guys who want to load BPCR cases with it.
When I have raised my objections in the past it always got Waksupi stirred up, (or somebody whined to him) so I have quit 'being judgemental' on the subject.

Maybe it's time to start, again.

CM

[SgtDog0311]

Lead pot, I appreciate that. Been all around and over and under the issue and don't take your caution lightly. There is a good thread over on ASSRA about this rifle in your picture, cast vs forge, old stress crack, overcharge, etc. I don't question the advise and I take the risk with full knowledge of the warnings. Even if we're not talking about a cast vs a forged reciever we are talking about added risk in doublecharges.

All I can say is I am loading at or under Black Powder pressures (and spikes). If I laid all that out it would just sound like a debate and I don't want to sound like a guy who wants to debate. I'd rather just appreciate the warning for what it is, one concerned shooter for another. Thanks for that.

[Lead pot]

John,

When this happen this person was maybe 25 feet to the right of me and when this thing went off. The barrel flew up twisting in the air and this person just about lost the use of the hand. It could have been worse.
Cast or forged makes no difference to me. I will not even think of using smokeless in my Shiloh's. There is no need to do it.

[SgtDog0311]

CM... I gotta respect that. Thanks for the advice given thus far. If you are curious about that particular rifle, and about the Marlin Ballard characteristics and differences in Cast and Forged frames they cover it briefly here: http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1340046856/30

The picture you are looking at is a cast reciever, as identified by the cavity under the threads.

One of the main rubs with Marlin Ballard guys is those who ignore the warnings given them about the number of lines that are stamped on the receivers, two vs three, wherein one indicates cast and the other indicates forged. The cast receivers are recommended by many for 'no larger than 22 caliber', even those originally made for larger rim-fires.

It's not a warning unlike yours... given by well respected black powder shooters to those who are entertaining smokeless. On that account the only thing I can offer to set myself apart from those ignoring the "cast receiver warning" is that I'm relying on pressure graphs and testing. According to that data, the loads I'm shooting pose less risk in both spikes and top-end pressure than even BP. To show I'm not looking for an argument I'll add that I know respected Marlin Ballard experts who shoot nothing but light smokeless while I know perhaps more who would never shoot Smokeless.

I'm not looking to compound my mistake in not realizing there was a PP section dedicated to smokeless. I appreciate both your cautions and convictions.

Lead pot, Twenty five feet... wow. That'd shiver my timbers. I am curious though, are you saying you'd never consider smokeless in a Shiloh because of pressures? I knew Shiloh made rifles specifically for Black Powder but I always thought it was a liability thing for them 'and for other modern reproduction folks' to protect them from those who hot rod smokeless.

[Don McDowell]

Yup after 2 years she has most of the use of her hand, lots of painful surgery and recovery. Fingers still show the blue lines where they reattached them. Took several weeks in the Salt Lake City Hospital to save her life and her hand.
Go ahead and shoot smokeless in that old Ballard, hell it's only had 140 years of stress and strain, and we all know metal never weakens over time due to use, and corrosion etc....
Shiloh only warrants their rifle for use with smokeless powder that have factory loaded ammunition available..

[Lead pot]

John.

I started shooting black powder rifles since I ordered my first one out of the back pages of the NRA magazines back in 1954 after getting paid for spending the summer up in a haymow mowing hay or sticking the forks on the hay rack if I was lucky to get that job :)
I have had several rollers in several different calibers and I never used smokeless in any of those rifles. When I got the first browning BPCR in the 90's I loaded some rounds in the .45-70 and I found no advantage doing this except for scrubbing lead out of the bore so a few times doing this I went back to the blk powder and got better accuracy again. The 7 Shiloh's have never had black or subs shot through them. There is just no need to use smokeless and I don't thumb my nose at people that want to use it. I have shot along side my friends I shoot with that use smokeless and I have seen one shooting a 2.4 Sharps using smokeless I think he said he had a .45-70 load in that 2.4 case of 3031 and had detonation in one round that smeared brass in his chamber but the sharps action held.
No I wont use it.
Don was to the left of me when this happened.

[Don McDowell]

I have no problem with folks that want to shoot smokeless in a modern built rifle in cartridges that are readily available factory loads, or even some that aren't that are listed with pressure tested data from places like the Lyman Reloading handbook.
But doggone, those old guns that were built before smokeless was even in a manageable form, and cartridges that didn't survive the transition from black to smokeless, need to be treated with the respect due to their age, and when shot only be shot with the powder they were built for..
Yup that was a scary day when Sharon almost lost her hand, we had just finished up on our turn at the offhand target and started to walk up to the far end of the firing line. We wished her good luck and probably hadn't made it 50 yds when that shot rang out and we heard the screams.....
Leadpot and the rest of our group had a long long time to sit and think and pray and hope for the best.....
Spend the dang money and get a modern rifle to shoot your smokeless thru..

[SgtDog0311]

Lead pot... thanks for the answer. Appreciate the civility.