what caliber for PP?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

I have got a Sears M53 in 30-06 (Winchester M70) which I picked up cheap with the thought that I would use it for the action on a pet rifle one of these days.

If you had a M70 long action to play around with and wanted to re-barrel it for the sole purpose of shooting paper patched boolits what caliber would you chamber it in?

[geargnasher]

.35 Whelen, medium contour, 14 twist. This is not the voice of experience talking, but the voice of want, probably along the same lines as yours.

Gear

[zooly]

!st on my list would be an "original" .400 Whelen. 2nd would be a 35 Whelen(lots cheaper)
zooly

[handyman25]

35 whelen.

[Nobade]

9.3x62. That way I could shoot 35 cal. boolits in it.

[6.5 mike]

Try it as chambered, with the right boolit you might be very surprized what will happen. My 30-40 krag highwall, 03a3, & 1903 rem all like the lee 200gr with paper. I have not worked with my NOE 311284 enough to know how it will be, but all of these rifles have a 1 in 10 twist & like 5744. I have noticed you do not get as much unburnt kernels with a bottlenecked case.

My vote if you rebarrel is 35 whelen, 1 in 14 twist.

[303Guy]

Well, if you must re-barrel then so be it. However, chances are you will have a lot of fun (and frustration - not) trying it like it is. The last bit of barrel might need to be chopped off due to 'funnelling' (about an inch?). If I could take a pic of my pig gun bore or better still, a bore scope pic, you would be amazed at what will shoot with paper patching.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Thanks for the replies, and advice. Just wishing and thinking on the “next” gun but for now I am happy with it as a 30-06.

[docone31]

My O3-A3 was the first rifle I wrapped for.
Untill I found the size, I almost gave up. If my castings alone were more accurate, I would still be doing it that way.
Once I found the size, my O3-A3 turned out to be a sweet firing rifle with paper patched loads. Accurate, comfortable, and they made the bore shiney! I only have more calibers, because I like them.
My '06 is my first choice.

[nanuk]

9.3x62. That way I could shoot 35 cal. boolits in it.

Nobade: I have one of those on a Husq'y action, and a x57 barreled action that I need to swap out parts to....

I like the idea of a big boolit plodding along, passing through whatever I aim it at.

if I were starting from scratch, I'd prolly look hard at the .375x06 like The Bullshop speaks so highly of, or .375x08 that I have read some very interesting stuff on...

[Nobade]

Nobade: I have one of those on a Husq'y action, and a x57 barreled action that I need to swap out parts to....

I like the idea of a big boolit plodding along, passing through whatever I aim it at.

if I were starting from scratch, I'd prolly look hard at the .375x06 like The Bullshop speaks so highly of, or .375x08 that I have read some very interesting stuff on...

I have a .375x338 win mag I built just because I had a bunch of 7mm rem mag brass and a magnum action. But looking at Quickload it seems the .375x30-06 would do darn near the same thing with a lot less powder consumption and recoil. I also have a 358 Win, which I like a lot for shooting PP but it can't run with a 35 whelen no matter how hard I push it. But in the future I am looking at building a 9.3, especially since Midway now has Adams and Bennett 9.3 barrels for cheap. With the 35 I have to size down 35 cal bullets or use 348 bullets, and the 375 uses 9.3 bullets quite well. But the 9.3 could use 35 cal bullets, which there are quite a few mould designs available. Anymore my rifle builds depend on what moulds I have and what brass I have laying around, since both have gotten so expensive.

I also have been getting Dave Manson to make me custom neck/throaters that look like SAAMI rounds. A 375 that duplicates the 375 H&H allows you to make up any number of custom cartridges in that bore size, as does a 35 or 9.3 or whatever else you may want. And some creativity applied to making dies will usually allow you to come up with something that will reload whatever you dream up without having to spend a fortune on custom ones.

This is all in good fun anyhow, right?

[Old Coot]

I have played with the idea of a 9.3 for some time, the "poor mans 375 H&H" is very attractive. Physically or ballisticly there seems to be little difference between it and the 35 Whellen except that the whellen seldom has a fast enough twist to handle a 300 gr. bullet. That is a shame. What is also a shame is the lack of molds available in this country for the 9.3. Paper patching (as Nobade mentioned) would solve this quite handily. We have lots of 35 caliber molds, only a couple .366 molds and just reams and reams of paper. It seems like a solution to me. The combination should make for a superb cast bullet or paper Patch cast bullet rifle.

Oh, in a pinch you can make cases for the 9.3 out of 06 brass as well.

[Hardcast416taylor]

All I`m gonna say is .338-06. I shoot both paper patched and grease grooves thru it, "J" bullets for my Saturday-go-to-meeting loads.Robert

[windrider919]

If you are dedicating a rifle to shooting cast and PP then I would suggest going to as big a bore as you can. The reason is that a void inside a small caliber is proportionally bigger and has more effect to throw off the accuracy than a void of the same size in a larger bullet. Plus, if the bullet is slow enough to NOT expand, the larger bore has more frontal area and 'smack' delivered. If I am shooting a J-bullet 30 cal, I just hope it expands at least as big as one of my 45 cal starts with.

My shooting experience has led me to believe that anything 35 cal and above is less affected by casting imperfections compared to smaller calibers. Some guys say go for something that has a large selection of bullets and moulds but if you are inclined to wildcat new moulds anyway that selection would not matter.

Personally, If I were thinking of re-barreling that action, I would be very tempted to go 9.3x62 which I have owned and compared to a 375-06 (also an excellent cast and PP cartridge, my 375-06 was a Whelen 40 degree shoulder) it was easier to shoot/re-load for since factory 9.3 brass was available.

Or a 45 cal...as most here know...I pretty much stopped experimenting and fixed on the 458 Win Mag for the caliber and the case capacity (45-95 equivalent) but if you did I would have a custom reamer made which does NOT have the standard .464 throat and instead has a PP throat and lead. The nice thing about 45 cal is the selection of J-bullets and cast bullets and its ease in PP. Plus, as I said earlier, small imperfections are less important the larger the caliber. The pain of this action's conversion is having the bolt face opened up and getting the feed ramp opened up correctly, it WILL make a difference if not done correctly, the PP will be torn in chambering if it is not just right.

[nanuk]

......But in the future I am looking at building a 9.3, especially since Midway now has Adams and Bennett 9.3 barrels for cheap.

This is all in good fun anyhow, right?


Aw... don't say that.... IF we can get them up here, they are brutal expensive. I'm looking into a company up here that imports, but I think it adds $50 to each product.... but NEW A&B barrels are over $250 each if bought in Canada


Yup... all in good fun

I have a throater for 7mm that appears new, and I have never used it.... and for the life of me I can't figure out how it would be used... what tool do you need to make it work? it has tiny threaded holes on either end...

[Nobade]

Aw... don't say that.... IF we can get them up here, they are brutal expensive. I'm looking into a company up here that imports, but I think it adds $50 to each product.... but NEW A&B barrels are over $250 each if bought in Canada


Yup... all in good fun

I have a throater for 7mm that appears new, and I have never used it.... and for the life of me I can't figure out how it would be used... what tool do you need to make it work? it has tiny threaded holes on either end...

To use neckers and throaters, I made up a tool from .350" steel rod, (turned down 3/8") about 14 inches long. One end is drilled to fit the cutters, with a small set screw in the side to engage the flat on the cutter. That screw has to be tiny and not stick out past the outside of the rod or it'll scratch the chamber. The other end is drilled for a center, and cut into a square to allow a small tap handle to grab it. In use, I insert the cutter into the chamber, and support the other end with my live center. With one finger on the tap handle I can easily feel what it is doing. Run the spindle as slow as it goes, and advance the cutter with the tailstock. When you get where you want to be, just let go of the tap handle and let the whole works spin free. This way it is easy to measure progress by looking at the turns of the handle on the tail stock, and not go too far. And of course keep everything centered. When you remove the cutter, keep the extension up hard on the live center and pull the whole thing out of the chamber so as to not allow it to come out crooked.

I hope this makes sense, if not let me know.

[Lead pot]

Nothing below a .40 cal.

A .45-70 would not work to good with a .30-06 action. You need something with a larger Mauser ring like the Siamese Mauser.


A .40-70, .405 .444 marlin would work with what you have or thinking about getting. Or a blown out 30-40 Krag or .303 to .408 would be a good way to go with a good supply of brass and they shoot very good.

[303Guy]

Nothing under 40 cal? OK, here's a radical idea - chop off the shoulder of a 30-06 case and you you have a thick necked straight (almost) case that will head-space on the neck! It can be expanded out to reduce the body taper too. Very simple case mod but does require a means of cutting the cases true (case trimmer). I think the 30-06 case is thick enough at the shoulder. I know the 308 case is and it's already straight walled but a little on the short side.

[Lead pot]

I dont think it would work. It would need more meat at the case mouth for it to hold against the chamber end to hold it on bolt face like a .45 acp head spaces on the case mouth but I dont think it would be enough for the .06 case.
A belted case would be a better choice or a rimmed case like the 303.

[303Guy]

But the 45 ACP has such a thin wall and yet it works. Even with taper crimping. Of course, such a case would not allow sizing to hold the boolit - the boolit would have to be sized to the case. Not an issue with paper patching. It's how I do it but It works best with thicker and softer paper. I think it'll work but it might be too much trouble for some folks to bother with. Then again, if done right it might be a dream to load for. Head spacing would have to be carefully set but once the case trimmer is set up there's no problem. Set it wrong and the whole batch of cases get ruined!

A belted case would most certainly work. I like a rimmed case personally. I'd look at a blown out 30-40 case but those are scarce are they not? To me, the great thing about the 30-40 case is its long neck so the wall thickness change at the blown out shoulder area is no issue. The Brit case needs to be ironed uniform in a special die but once possessing such a die, cases abound.

[Nobade]

Check out the 50 Razorback elsewhere on this forum. Kind of like what you're talking about but even bigger. I didn't think a straight case that big would work either but evidently it does.

[Lead pot]

Here it is.

He talks about the head space problem and it makes sense.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=115952

[windrider919]

I would disagree a bit here

But the 45 ACP has such a thin wall and yet it works. Even with taper crimping.
Actually, the 45ACP is SUPPOSED to head-space on the case mouth but in reality, it rarely does....ESPECIALLY if taper crimped beyond a tiny amount. (note - I do taper crimp but only enough to true up the case) First of all, most brass is too short in length to headspace on he case mouth anyway and secondly, if you make a chamber cast you will find that the chamber diameter is frequently [non match being discussed here] so large that the case mouth may only touch at the point the cartridge case rests against, which is on the side of the chamber {the extractor claw puts diagonal pressure on the case usually so the contact point is not on the bottom]. What I have found when closely measuring a particular chamber / load combination is the frequently the BULLET centers and sort of headspaces the cartridge...the throat in MOST 45 barrels is quite short and many bullets when seated to the correct overall case length actually are close to touching them and keeping the 'short case' pushed back. And finally, 45ACP when fired, the firing pin drives the cartridge forwards a few thousands til something stops it (I have measured where a batch of short cases moved forwards in a 1911A due to a long chamber and worn link and lugs as much as 0.30 ) and then the firing pressure drives the straight walled case sliding back into the face of the breach block...BAD for almost every other cartridge and yet it is usually what happens with 45ACP. There is a trick I have shown to guys with pistols with really rotten accuracy...when setting up the bullet seating die, use NO crimp and seat a bullet long by 0.75 or so...then put it in the chamber and GENTLY let the slide closed til it comes into battery..at first, it will not, take out the cartridge and push the bullet in a tad, like a quarter turn of the die down and test the fit...when the slide will finally just close on the cartridge, turn the die ONE LAST TIME 1/4 turn and lock it down. with this, the base of the case is 'tight' against the breach face and the bullet is just touching the rifling and is centered in the chamber...it is "headspacing" on the bullet so to speak. Then check to make sure it will still fit in the magazine because it will be over spec on overall length. Also check it does not interfere with the magazine tab on the slide stop. After figuring out the correct seating dept to do this I then use the taper die to straighten the case walls but not really taper the cartridge significantly (because there is the two common mistakes a lot of people make, if you taper the cartridge much, you are SWAGGING the bullet down inside the case, I have pulled bullets that were swagged down to .445..or even to .440 in one guys reloads. Think about it and how a bullet of that diameter fits in a .451 barrel - lots of blowby, lots of leading and the bullet is basically rattling down the bore, not being firmly guided...and the accuracy would be???)...the second main problem here is that the expander ball on most dies is set to give the right case tension for jacketed bullets..so the softer lead bullets, especially commercial swagged bullets get crushed down a little and so what is needed is an expander ball that opens the case a few thousands more ...so the case grips the soft lead bullet but does not cause it to be crushed down by excess case tension....and I NEVER use roll crimp on 45ACP. Doing this has worked on 90% of those pistols to cut group size significantly

A belted case would most certainly work. I like a rimmed case personally. I'd look at a blown out 30-40 case but those are scarce are they not? To me, the great thing about the 30-40 case is its long neck so the wall thickness change at the blown out shoulder area is no issue. The Brit case needs to be ironed uniform in a special die but once possessing such a die, cases abound.

For less jams, keeping rimmed cases out of bolt actions is preferred by most, except for those strange retro people who are hooked on that obsolete 303 thing from that defunct island Empire from last century. Just proof that perversity in human nature to take the harder path will arise in the strangest places! :smile: {yup, thats you 303guy..... but we still love ya man!} I had shot single shots for years but wanted to hunt with a bolt action for quicker repeat shots ( I know, some guys hold a second cartridge & the foreskin in their off hand and can practice and reload real fast...and sometime while actually hunting, I DROPPED the follow up cartridge..other options were obviously necessary) That's why I went with the belted case where I got decent case capacity on a straight walled case yet had positive head-space. I did consider the 458x2 American which shortens the 458 case from 2-1/2 inch to 2 inch but as I shoot long range I wanted the 45-95 equivalent for those Quigly impersonations when you want to reach out and touch someone...at 1000 yards. My experience is a rimmed case in a bolt action just required too may compromises and exact tuning to make it ...fast n reliable...even if the Enfield WAS eventually able to accomplish it...note that every other military DROPPED rimmed cases for a reason

Why need a QUICK follow up shot? How about shooting across a NE Oregon canyon at an elk and hitting it with a good shot, just not a DRT one....and as I attempted to eject the cartridge from my .45-70 Uberti 1874 Sharps and load the follow-up cartridge in my left hand, I slid down the slope a foot or so ended up on my ...donkey. I never did find that cartridge..after a quick glance around I went for the one inside my coat in my shirt pocket but by then the wapiti had disappeared around the hillside. It took an hour get down and back up the canyon walls and then I found the beast had dropped just around the rocks out of sight...but the whole time I kept having visions of having to track for a long time to recover him. Hence my decision that I wanted a big bore 'like' a traditional single shot but the reliability of a modern bolt action. Besides, in the surveying job I had back then, I kept running into bears and such and wanted something with quick, superior knock down power...hence the 458 Winchester magnum...loaded with cast bullets and for a long time BP or Pyrodex. And then I discovered PAPER PATCH ('83? '84?)!!!!!

Link to 458x2 American
http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/w458x2.html

And the 450 Marlin was developed FROM the 45 American, just with a thicker belt so it was difffferrrent
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.450_Marlin

[Lead pot]

I think I will stick with my Sharps. No problems that way :)

[303Guy]

:mrgreen: Heck I'm only one step away from muzzle loading.:roll: You should see the vintage of my car! (No, it's not collectable but I just prefer driving it). I have had one or two jambs with the rims overlapping the wrong way in the magazine (and Lee Enfields have terrible magazines!) But they do have history. They've fought against or alongside most every other cartridge military rifle there is. (I do have an eye for the Tikka Light).:drinks:

Thanks for the interesting information on the 45 ACP, windrider919.

[windrider919]

Note: I edited the post on 45ACP with some revised sentences for clarity and added some more info about case mouth tension.

[Doughty]

Well, I like everything Windrider had to say, IF you're set on having a .45 caliber. But if you want to keep the gunsmithing part simple and just do a rebarrel, I'd stick with something based on the 06 case. Also, the OP didn't say what he intended to use it for, except to paper patch. I don't think .30-06 would be a bad choice, but if he wants something else, I'd recommend .338-06 or the .35 Whelen. I hunted several years with the .35 Whelen and it killed whatever it hit. If I was worried about stopping big bears or some of the other dangerous game, I'd still go with it. But I come to realize, that the recoil of full power loads was more than I needed or wanted for most everything else. I know that it can be loaded down, but then that doesn't work as well with paper patch, in my opinion, and then it also loses it's best trajectories.

Thus the .338-06. I don't have one, but I shoot mostly with Ruger single shots, so I can use a rimmed case, the .30-40 case blown out to .338 that I call a .33 Krag. It too has killed whatever it hits. Not a lot of difference between the .33 Krag and the .338-06. I think the .338-06 would have less headspacing difficulties than the .35 Whelen, not that either won't work if done right. With boolits in the 225 grain range at around 2400 fps, recoil is not bad and trajectory is pretty good. I'd also suggest a 1-12 twist or even a 1-14. And at least 24" or even 26" or 28". I'd also make the leade pretty flat, maybe 1 degree included or even 1/2 degree like my .33 Krag.

My $.02 Hope you have fun with it whatever you decide.

[Nrut]

Richard,
Do you have or is there a chamber reamer drawing of your .33 Krag?
Thanks

[Doughty]

Nrut,
Not really. I had Pacific Tool and Guage make me a close spec .30-40 reamer. Then I had him make a neck/throat reamer for the .338. If I remember correctly, the neck diameter is .364. To cut the chamber I put the .330 pilot on the .30-40 reamer, then switched it back to cut the neck and throat. Later I had him make another neck/throat reamer for a .375 barrel. I call that a .38 Krag.
Richard

[Nrut]

That'll work..
Thanks again..

[303Guy]

Doughty, might I ask you to post some pictures of these two cartridges? They sound very interesting indeed.

[Doughty]

303Guy

Here you go. I haven't settled on a .33 Krag PP load yet. Not enough time to experiment.

[303Guy]

I like them. Thanks. Both are well proportion cartridges. I like the shoulder on that 38 Krag. Just enough for positive head-spacing - to give zero head-space clearance for long case life. The 38-303 neck blends into the body perfectly so loads would need to be kept moderate to mild for case life.

[Chill Wills]

I have and shoot both the 338-06 and 35Whelen. Both great! The 338 (two of them) built on a Ruger #1 and a interarms markX action. I had LBT cut a pp mould for it 20??? some years ago. Easy to load and shoot.
The 35 Whelen is Remington's 700 new in 1990 --old clasic frifle. It is likely the best of the best to work with. It eats anything for powder and bullets. Anything!
The 16 twist has never been a problem as far as I know using up to 275 gr bullets. Both the Lyman358009 and a LBT 375gr SP. Veral helped me get full house accuracy out of it 20 years ago by telling me to add a bit of corn meal under the bullet. Back then who knew?! That cut the group to a third and made hunting elk at zero to 250 yards a cake walk.

Then there is the 338-08... Need a reamer?

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Thanks for all the great input so far.

This is getting a little off topic of my own thread, but anyone have any input on the 357 Maximum? It might be better suited to a single shot action, but still it seems like it would be a great boolit and paper patch shooter. Also would be able to handle 38s and 357mags and have plenty of power for the Texas sized deer and hogs.

[Nrut]

Yep it would work esp. in the looong throats that the factory Contender barrels have if they still make them like they did back in the 80's..

See this thread:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=133843