Flakes of Lead in Barrel

[Coote]

I'm new to casting and reloading. Today I went to the range and tried some lead boolits in my Rossi .308, and an old Lee Enfield .303 British.

The Rossi grouped well, and the barrel looked good afterward.

The Lee Enfield threw a six inch group at 50 metres, and afterwards while cleaning it I saw flakes of lead sitting on my cloth patch.

I don't know what lead fouling actually looks like for sure, but I imagined it would be a fairly smooth coating in the rifling grooves.

Some of the flakes were quite big. If it was alluvial gold and I was a prospector I'd be getting excited.

I "Chrony'd" these particular boolits at around 900 fps. These were 180 grain projectiles I got from a relative many years ago, and I'm fairly sure they were mainly flashing lead with some solder added. The barrel on the Lee Enfield isn't the prettiest one I've seen, but it is in the 'ok' category.... and is only 13 inches long. I was using 7.5 grains of Trail Boss powder.

This is a five-groove barrel, and I havent found a good way to measure the barrel slug I made in it. But the boolits were big.... the nose is maybe .306" and the bands are around .315" . The boolits have only two grease grooves. I filled these with a beeswax/olive oil mix which has worked well in other rifles.

So what does lead fouling actually look like? Are flakes common? Any insights or ideas as to why I'm making flakes?

Once again, thanks in advance for your helpfulness. Best wishes... Coote

[runfiverun]

wow this is a tough question.
i see so many things going on here.
unknowns alloy, bbl size, hardness,low pressures, and a black powder lube.
i'm gonna take a stab and say you got copper in the bbl.
this is where the flaking is coming from.

[Coote]

Good thoughts thanks. I can try cleaning out the barrel and another type of lube.

So when people say that they are getting 'leading'.... what does common leading look like?

Thanks.

[Springfield]

How big is "quite big" ? 1/16th, 1/32 or were they 1/4" and larger. If it wipes out with a lubed patch I wouldn't really consider that leading, you're usually going to have a little something. Real leading to me is I can look down the bore and see the lead build-up on the edge of the cut rifling filing up the grooves. And at 900 fps I wouldn't be too ready to blame the lube.

[mooman76]

Like Springfield said, if it's that minor I wouldn't sweat it.

[Coote]

The first flake I noticed was around 1/4" square.... that got my attention. Then when I examined the patch I saw quite a few smaller flakes.... mostly around 1/16" or less.

I wouldn't be surprised if this leading was related to the poor accuracy I experienced. So when I solve one issue, I may improve the other.

Thanks very much. Coote.

[canyon-ghost]

Runfiverun has a real good point there. If you have copper fouling and don't take it out with a good solvent, you'll be shredding lead boolits for sure.

I've seen that happen, done it, it makes an awful mess.

[williamwaco]

I'm new to casting and reloading. .

The Lee Enfield threw a six inch group at 50 metres, and afterwards while cleaning it I saw flakes of lead sitting on my cloth patch.

I don't know what lead fouling actually looks like for sure, but I imagined it would be a fairly smooth coating in the rifling grooves.

Coote


Now you do.

Not so, see some actual photos here:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/leading-degrees.htm

more here:

http://www.reloadingtips.com/pages/index-leading_problems.htm



.

[Coote]

I've finally gotten around to taking a picture of the rifle I got the flakes in. This was a project my Dad created way back before moderators were trendy in our neighborhood. He never really developed a load for it, so I hope to achieve something that will work well.

The tube has a set of simple baffles in the forward end. The tube is threaded at the rear. The forward flange on the barrel is just a smooth spacer that slides inside the tube. This forward flange has holes through it to allow the gas to pass to the rear.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/kiwicoote/July%202011%20Onwards/ModeratedLE1.jpg
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/kiwicoote/July%202011%20Onwards/ModeratedLE2.jpg

[Coote]

I appreciate all the helpful comments.

And thanks Williamwaco, that is very helpful. Great photos ! It is hard to get a picture of the inside of a barrel.

[John Boy]

Any insights or ideas as to why I'm making flakes?
Coote. there are 3 primary reasons that create leading in the bore:
1. Bullet diameter is too small and it is not obturating in the grooves to seal the gas pressure in the bore
2. The bullet alloy is too soft for the pressure generated by the powder charge
3. Lube starvation - lube too hard or too soft or not enough for the reload
A combination of any of the above.
The location of the leading is a good indicator for the reason:
* In front of the chamber - #2
* All the way down the bore - #1 and #2
* Near the muzzle - #3

[runfiverun]

good point's there john boy.
i'd still go with a combo of number 1 and copper though.
i am wondering if this is a two groove bbl.

[Coote]

Thanks for the further ideas.

I have to say that two small grease grooves don't seem enough for such a long boolit.

It is a five-groove barrel.

I am wondering if a boolit that is a bit too big might cause flaking. Tonight I drove one of those boolits through my barrel with a steel rod and I was interested to see some flakey lead pushed to the front of the projectile. I guess I should try a smaller boolit, although I would have thought that just a couple of thousandths oversize wouldn't have been a significant problem... although this particular projectile is quite a bit larger than the nominal .303" land diameter on the nose section.

Here is a picture of the boolit I tapped through the bore tonight

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/kiwicoote/July%202011%20Onwards/BoreSlugFlakes.jpg

[44man]

Not too big usually but too long with not enough lube and a soft boolit. The grease grooves seem gone so they look too large in diameter for the depth of the grooves. The boolit looks like it will be shot dry. I think a better boolit should be looked for. Make them harder too.

[Coote]

Thanks. I have a different mould coming my way, a Lee C312-185-1R. We'll see what happens with that.

Its nice when things work perfectly the first time, but I guess I learn more when they don't.

[runfiverun]

i'd try a harder boolit first.
somethings going on here.
i mainly use only one lube groove rifle boolits, i have a couple of two lube groove boolits that i use.
and i have plenty of lube left even on 24" bbls.
now if you have say a 315 bbl and are using a 320 [body] boolit i could see you pushing the lube grooves to the rear of the boolit and the lube with it.
you might look at dip lubing the nose to help you.

[williamwaco]

I was interested to see some flakey lead pushed to the front of the projectile.
Here is a picture of the boolit I tapped through the bore tonight



I don't think that lead came from the bullet you pushed through the bore. I think the bullet scraped it off the inside of the bore and pushed it out ahead.

There are bore cleaning products that grab lead like that and push it out of the bore.

What is that blue wrinkled stuff at the base of the bullet?

I agree with 44man. The missing lube grooves make me think the bullet is way too large for the bore.






.

[303Guy]

Your gun has a shorter barrel than my pig gun and a way better bore. I'm using full power loads in mine but paper patched. That gun would be a perfect companion to mine in the safe!

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-153F.jpg

Mine has a shorter overhanging suppressor. One day I'll fit a fore-end but for now it works just fine as is. I'll be opting for an even shorter fore-end than yours. I load the largest boolit that will fit into an unsized case neck - 8.1mm. I'll be trying full case loads of AR2209 (44gr) with under boolit card wads next outing (tomorrow I hope).

For your boolit weight, I'd try a full case of Trail Boss. My cases hold 14.6grs. Some have suggested that 80%~90% load density works best. My test was with a 205gr boolit over 14.6grs and pressure seemed mild. You might try filling the case to base of neck and placing a fibrous wad or filler over the powder (not compressing the powder) with your boolit.

Another trick you might try is smearing your boolits with a metal polish (without lube) like Autosol Metal Polish and firing them. Don't worry about the stuff getting into the chamber - it will only polish the cases!

[Coote]

All good thoughts thanks.

Yep, my next boolits should be a tad harder... and a bit smaller. The new mould I was waiting for got delivered to a neighbor's house by mistake.... but hallelujah!! the neighbor brought it to me this afternoon. We have some guests at present, but when I get a moment I will be cleaning up the mould then making some new boolits.

What's the blue wrinkly stuff? That is plastic electrical tape. I drove the boolit through the bore with a 1/4" steel rod. I wrapped tape around the rod to protect the bore. The excess lead from the oversized boolit pushed back over the rod and wrinkled the plastic tape. When I took that first photo, the boolit was still stuck to the end of the rod.

Here's a pic of an identical projectile to the one I drove through the bore.... plus the one that got driven through.... and the rod I used.

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h71/kiwicoote/July%202011%20Onwards/deLisleSlug2.jpg

.303Guy... I like the look of that small diameter suppressor (or have I got it wrong?).... much less cumbersome than my big 'prototype'. I've gotta say that as I've read through your posts you've got me fizzing at the bung about paper patching in a Lee Enfield, but all I want to do is get this little Lee Enfield grouping well enough with subsonic ammo at 50 to 80 yards. Then I want to get patching some boolits to use in my Number 4.

[303Guy]

Nothing wrong with the size of your prototype. By the look of that 'slug' your boolit simply doesn't have the lube where it's needed - on the nose. I tried smooth sided tapered boolits once and those I dipped into a molten 'waxy lube' mixture and it worked. I think the coating of waxy lube acted like a lube patch. One of the boolits had no knurling. Those worked but the lube got knocked off easily. The boolit base was dipped first then seated so that the waxy lube actually held the boolit in place. In your case, I'd suggest trying those same boolits with a good smear of some sticky lube on the nose section. Also your new mold.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-617F_edited.jpg 245grhttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-338F_edited.jpg
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-657F.jpghttp://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-745F.jpg 225gr
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-457F_edited.jpg 245gr 50yd ±1800fps

That is a suppressor you see on my gun. It only has two baffles and is single point attached over the knox form. With subsonic loads, I've fired the gun with someone standing behind me facing sideways and he did not know I had fired a shot! I'm planning on a subsonic load using a 194 or even a 205gr boolit. Depends on the muzzle report with the higher powder charge for the heavier boolit.

[runfiverun]

the pic of the ruler had me going for a second.
i was trying to figure out 10th's of an inch, then i hought it was a blueprint scale ruler.
then it dawned on me, y'all are on the metric.
anyways that completely deformed boolit you have there tells the story as to whats happening.
if you can make it look like that with a metal rod i am sure 35k in pressure can too.

[Coote]

Yep, we have gone metric down here. But when it comes to rifles and shooting I prefer to use the 'proper' measurements..... thousandths of an inch and ranges in yards. It has been the same when playing with bows and arrows.... my bow weight has to be expressed in pounds and my arrows are always so many inches long. And I find it more natural to think in terms of pounds per square inch when it comes to pressure. I just cant visualize a 'pascal' for heaven's sake. But for other things millimetres are handy to work with, and I have a fair idea of what a kilogram is.

Dang, Interesting photos 303Guy. Pleasing accuracy.

That is a good point about having lube nearer the front. Runfiverun mentioned that too. It should help.... that is how a lot of .22 projectiles have been for years. I guess any lube would help, but to me the ideal one would stick well, have a long shelf life, and have a hard enough skin as to not have grit stick to it.

There doesn't seem to be much of a shoulder on the cartridge with the darker boolit. Is that one of the 8.1mm boolits you mentioned earlier?

That is encouraging news about the two baffles in your moderator. I've been thinking that a moderator for a low velocity load doesn't need to be as big and elaborate as most of the moderators I see in NZ now. I'm wondering if a simple, short, barrel-forward silencer - almost like the simple .22 silencers - might not be enough to reduce the sound to an acceptable level with boolits travelling at 1000 fps.

[303Guy]

My waxy-lube is a mix of candle wax, STP Smoke Stopper and something like beeswax or Alox stick lube (or any stick lube) in equal amounts. I developed it to form a hard lube to actually glue the boolits into the case mouth. Even candle wax and STP works. It darkens after a while in the melting pot.

It's just the angle of the cartridge in the photo. That's the one that produced that group - there were two such groups by the way, the first was a bit off target so I readjusted the scope then fired that group. Interestingly, the gun shake caused by my heartbeat was about the same as the group size. I wonder how it would've performed on a proper rest with a ten shot group. I should try it again sometime.

You'll notice the knurling on some of those boolits. That knurling remains in the rifling impressions after firing so they work. I also left a heavy coating of lube on the noses with the idea that in the bore it would move back to supply more lube and provide thick film lubrication i.e. 'float' the boolit down the bore.

On the suppressor, I like the over-barrel type. It keeps the gun short and provides a large expansion chamber. The forward support is not necessary but likely does no harm. I would open up those holes though. Make it into a three spoked support.