1914 Enfield

[frnkeore]

I have a oppertunity to buy what I believe is a 1914 Enfield with a 26" barrel.

It is marked ERA length wise on the right side of the receiver ring and no other marking other than serial # and proof marks.

What is it?

Frank

[Ben]

WW I , Cal. 303 British ( assuming it has not been tampered with )

[Hip's Ax]

I agree with Ben. Sounds like a Pattern 14 Enfield that would have originally been chambered for the 303 British. I have one and it shoots great! I also have an M1917 and I took both to the range one day and had a shoot off. With my best lot of ball ammo in each caliber it was easy to see the P14 shot smaller groups then the M1917.

[frnkeore]

Yes, I figured that it was a 303 Brit cal., it has a bolt face to take a larger rim. I'm not a Enfield collector so, I don't know what that ERA marking is. I've seen lots of 1917's and expected something on the ring that said 1914 and wanted to make sure that it wasn't some sort of a training rifle or a copy of a 1914.

Does anyone know what the ERA stands for?

Frank

[thaxted]

Frank:
The ERA mark indicates your rifle was produced by Remington at their Eddystone plant.

If I had to guess I'd say ERA means Eddystone Rifle Arsenal

I also have a P14 With 1916 British proof marks.

[frnkeore]

thaxted, thank you.

Frank

[Ben]

If you want to read a little on the Pattern 14 rifle, here is a good link ;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pattern_1914_Enfield

[3006guns]

Caution: A number of these rifles were imported some years back that were training guns. The Brits drilled a hole crossways through the barrel and handguard, just in front of the receiver ring. Normally it's very obvious, but at least one rifle has been reported as having the handguard replaced, which covered the hole. Pull the handguard and take a peek just to be safe.

[Ben]

That's good to know, you can never be too safe ! !

[Hardcast416taylor]

The few drill rifles that I have run across had the mentioned hole thru the barrel, but then had a piece of steel rod welded in. The guy doing the welding must have not been to good as both sides of the lower stock showed charring from being on fire at the weld spot.Robert

[frnkeore]

Thank you all. After posting, I did a search for ERA and learn a lot on this site.

http://www.milsurps.com/index.php

The barrel is good on this gun and it's been sporterize but, the price is really right so, I will buy it. I have a 30/40 Imp reamer that I will use on it.

Thanks again,

Frank

[jonk]

Note that if you run a 30/40 Imp reamer into the .303 chamber, it's going to be a sloppy fit. That bore probably is well north of .311" to say nothing of .308", so you'll be creating a wildcat that will need fireforming and neck sizing. Otherwise sounds good.

[frnkeore]

jonk,
I'm not worried about that. I've done my own wildcats in 32, 30 and 7mm. So far, I've found ways to create cases to fire form. The rimmed ones are easy. I wanted this because I have a High wall in 30/40 Imp so, I'm already setup to neck size and I have the cases, I just need to make a expander to work with the groove dia.

BTW, the shoulder diameter is .454 on the 30/40 Imp, so, 308 dies work fine and I use a Vickerman seater. The SAAMI specs for the necks on 30/40 and 303 are only .002 difference.

Frank

[Buckshot]

................My daughter works at a local PD and I suppose she and one of the officers somehow or the other got to talking guns or something. Anyhow she asked me if I'd take a look at a rifle the officer had just bought as he was wanting me to give it a good going over. When she dropped it off along with a 20 round box of $60 ammo I first saw it was a VERY nicely done sporter built on an Eddystone P14 action. This was no garage sporter and if it was, the person who did it knew what he was about.

It was chambered to 340 Weatherby Mag. When I pulled the barreled action from the stock there was a very visible crack in the reciever ring at 7 o'clock that went from the end of the action back to the heavier lug abutment shoulder area. :o What a crying shame that was. No way to tell how long it's been like that, or even if it'd been shot with or without the crack? I called the owner and let him know. He simply said to pull the scope, mounts, and sling off and return them with the ammo to my daughter.

................Buckshot

[nicholst55]

A gunsmith I know tells me that he very carefully inspects every P14 or 1917 receiver for cracks, and frequently finds them. He postulates that the cracks result from excessive torque used when these rifles were originally barreled.

He recommends having any such rifle magnetic particle inspected before use. Not sure I'd go that far, but I would check very carefully.

[frnkeore]

I'm getting it today. Thanks for the advise. I'll pull it apart when I get it home.

Frank

[Three44s]

Reading this makes me feel like re-checking my M1917!!


Three 44s

[frnkeore]

I brought it home and took it apart. The metal is in excellent condition. As near as I can tell, it was made in feb. of 1922. (I didn't think that they would have been made in that year) It looks like it has had almost no use.

I'll post some pics in the next day or two.

frank

[Dead Dog Jack]

As near as I can tell, it was made in feb. of 1922.



What leads you to believe it was made in 1922? Can you post the serial (minus the last three)? All of my references indicate non were manufactured after 1917.

[303Guy]

Apparently the P14 was only declared obsolete in British service in 1947. It was used in WWII as a sniper rifle by the Ozzies at least.

From Wiki

The P14's principal combat use during World War I was as a sniper rifle, since it was found to be more accurate than the SMLE, either in standard issue form or with modified micrometer-adjustable or telescopic sights (modified and telescopic sights were used only on Winchester-manufactured rifles, the Winchesters being thought to be of superior quality).

A gunsmith once showed me a P14 bolt with a broken off locking lug. Perhaps some of these actions were overly hardened?

[Multigunner]

Apparently the P14 was only declared obsolete in British service in 1947. It was used in WWII as a sniper rifle by the Ozzies at least.

From Wiki


A gunsmith once showed me a P14 bolt with a broken off locking lug. Perhaps some of these actions were overly hardened?


Hatcher's Notebook mentions in passing that some M1917 bolts had shed their lugs, but says no more about it.

Considering the rush to produce as many rifles in as short a time as possible and the relatively huge production runs for the day its natural that there would be a few defective parts slip by quality control.
Ammo quality was pretty lousy through most of WW1 as well, so some actions were probably overstressed at some point.
Some FN Mausers suffered broken away left hand lugs, usually only one leg of the split lug. The cause was found to be a too sharp cut in final machining of the bolt, no radius was left at the corner and this promoted cracking.
Bolt cracks can be heat treat or machining related.

[303Guy]

Some FN Mausers suffered broken away left hand lugs, usually only one leg of the split lug.Interesting, That's the bigger of the two lugs - taller actually. That means the bending moment would be higher if the lug recess was not flat. That would only add to other contributing factors I should think. But a P14 bolt lug is a big solid thing. The one I saw was a left hand lug! It was not chambered in 303 Brit when it broke - some magnum I seem to remember.

[azrednek]

A gunsmith I know tells me that he very carefully inspects every P14 or 1917 receiver for cracks, and frequently finds them. He postulates that the cracks result from excessive torque used when these rifles were originally barreled.

He recommends having any such rifle magnetic particle inspected before use. Not sure I'd go that far, but I would check very carefully.

In another group a member claims he checks the 1914 and 17 Enfields for cracks by soaking the barreled receiver in gasoline for a few hours. Pull it out and watch the gas evaporate. If the gasoline has crept into any hair line cracks it will show as the surface dries the cracks will still be wet.

Can't say for sure it works. I did it to a re-barreled sportorized 1917 I have right after reading it. I didn't see any cracks, assumed it is OK and have shot it several hundred times since. In the same news group thread others responded claiming they had discovered cracks using that method. The original poster claimed the 1914 and 17 Enfield receivers are more often cracked from improper removal of the original barrel.

[frnkeore]

Here are the pictures of it. In the first one, on the right, you'll see 303 2.22" I was taking that as the date. Can you tell me what it might mean. The second pic may be the date of manufactor it has '16. On the bottom (third pic) it has a number that might be a 14. The serial # is 343XXX.

Any help will be apprecaited. I'm very new to the Enfield. I've handled many 1917's but, never owned one and this 14 is the only one that I can remember having my hands on. Yes, I know the rear sights have been removed as was done to most 17's sporters that I've seen..

Frank


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524ec9e707eb807.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2776)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524ec9e721979ab.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2777)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524ec9e89d1cb7f.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2778)

[303Guy]

303 2.22" is for caliber and case length case length. I see the 18.5 TONS □ " stamped there. The '16 would be the year of manufacture I should think and there is clearly ' P 14' stamped there on the bottom side of the Knox form.

[frnkeore]

And this is the rifle assymbled.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524ec9e94bd2b81.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2779)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_88524ec9e958a5d57.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=2780)

[frnkeore]

And the 18.5 tons is the proof pressure? is that in Imperial (long) tons?
Where they proofed in the US or GB? If so,are all marks done in GB?
Frank

[303Guy]

No, the 18.5 tons (per square inch) is the rated chamber pressure it should equate roughly to standard CUP figures with the same errors that CUP to psi give. It'll be long tons.

[Multigunner]

18.5 Long tons (41,440 pounds) is the estimated average back thrust on the bolt of a 45,400 CUP .303 load equivalent to the MkVII milspec cartridge if the chamber is free of water and excess oil or other lubricants.
The earlier Lee Enfields intended for .303 ammo types up to the MkVI were marked 16 or 16.5 Long Tons.
Old sources on the earliest .303 BP or Cordite Mk1 loads give the chamber pressure as 15 tons (33,600 pounds) as measured by a pressure gun of the type used to obtain CUP pressure readings, with piston connected to chamber wall about midway up the case body rather than the later Base Crusher guns used by the British military. Other sources give a higher value, perhaps due to differences in the pressure guns or the point on the cartridge case or at case mouth where the pressure was bled off.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I think the problem with the actions cracking was due to the barrels being fitted pneumatically (I think that was the method, some sort of machine was used anyway. It is not such a problem on the original Bbl, but things can go pearshaped when the barrel is removed apparently. There was some way that the barrels were relieved before removing someone told me once, but that was a while ago and I can't remember.

[30calflash]

I think the problem with the actions cracking was due to the barrels being fitted pneumatically (I think that was the method, some sort of machine was used anyway. It is not such a problem on the original Bbl, but things can go pearshaped when the barrel is removed apparently. There was some way that the barrels were relieved before removing someone told me once, but that was a while ago and I can't remember.


I worked at a place that had to remove a number of 03 barrles. They were very tight in some cases.

The barreled receiver was put in a lathe and the barrel was undercut a few thousandths in front of the receiver, about as deep as the bottom of the threads. This removed the torque from the barrel shoulder and the barrels removed very easily after. Some by hand.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I worked at a place that had to remove a number of 03 barrles. They were very tight in some cases.

The barreled receiver was put in a lathe and the barrel was undercut a few thousandths in front of the receiver, about as deep as the bottom of the threads. This removed the torque from the barrel shoulder and the barrels removed very easily after. Some by hand.

Yep, thats how it was described to me, I remember now, stunningly simple! This old timers is a real pain. I guess having an enquiring/inquisitive mind over a lot of years means there is a lot of info in there and only in one folder, no wonder it is hard to access sometimes, lol.

[Anaxes]

Here is a photo of an original one. All-matching Winchester, non-WRS with volley sights intact. Unfortunately it had to be re-barrelled, but it was original in this photo. Not many have managed to avoid being sporterized, and those that haven't are often in quite poor condition.

Even with the knackered barrel, it was still a decent match for a worn No.4 Mk2 in accuracy. They are quite a solid design, and I can't think of anything that hasn't already been mentioned that you ought to watch out for.

http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm329/KoriumLG/th_001-13.jpg (http://s316.photobucket.com/albums/mm329/KoriumLG/?action=view&current=001-13.jpg)

[frnkeore]

That a very nice looking original, mine looks naked compared to yours. I went over the whole barreled action and it looks very new, inside and out. The inside of the barrel looks nearly unfired. I fired a 311299 out of it yesterday to fire form a case but, can't shoot it at targets untill I install a rear sight. I have high hopes for it.

Do you have a favorite cast load for yours?

Frank

[Gee_Wizz01]

Anaxes

That is a beautiful P14! My P14 is a rough specimen with a very worn bore, however, it shoots the Greek HXP ammo more accurately than any of my No 4 MkI Enfields.

G

[BarryinIN]

I got a P14 at an auction a few years ago, which was one of my better gun buys. I got to this auction late and couldn't look at anything, so was afraid to bid on anything. The temp was hovering around zero that day so I thought I'd stay inside and watch for a while.
Then they held up what was obviously an M1917 or P14, but they described it as a 7.65 Argentine Mauser, which were going pretty cheap at the time. It got to $75 and stalled. I guess everybody there took it to be an Argy. Since I knew it had to worth more than that whether it was a '14 or '17 unless it was completely abused (and it didn't appear to be from 15 feet away) I jumped in.
I got it for $85.

I got my first look after I paid the cashier. It was a Winchester-made Pattern 14, that appeared to be intact except for the volley sights, and had a good shiny bore.
I didn't shoot it until spring. My only other .303 was a No. 4 Enfield, which I always thought shot pretty well. But the P14 shot slightly better groups with everything I tried. I still don't shoot it very often, but I'm usually impressed all over again when I do. I've only shot jacketed in it (I don't have a fat .30 mould) but it has shot everything well that I've tried, including 150 Speers, 123 soft points meant for 7.62x39, and even some 100 grain XTPs for .32 revolvers.

The reason I'm telling you all of this (besides to remind myself I have found deals at auctions, even if by accident) is to suggest: I'd leave it alone and not rechamber it. At least until you try it. I usually don't stick my nose in on other people's gun mod plans, but it seems the P14s do have a reputation for shooting well, and I'd hate for you to not at least try it in .303 first. I don't know anyone else personally who owns one, but everything I've seen online says they shoot great. And I suppose the Brits didn't use them as sniper rifles for no reason.

[3006guns]

To go back to my original post, quite a few P-14 drill rifles were imported and I grabbed three of them. Hey, at $25 how can you go wrong? One had an original barrel reinstalled, one was rebarreled to 30-40 Krag and the other sits patiently waiting for another project. By the way, the "take off" drill purpose barrel (which appeared unfired) has enough meat to be rethreaded and chambered for 7.62x39. Nothing gets wasted at my place!

The .303 will flat outshoot just about any of my Enfields and many of my Mausers, all things considered. It has a nice, tolerable recoil and will whack targets out to 600 yds. with aplomb. I really have to find some musketry sights for that thing so it can stretch its legs a bit!

Although a little heavier than most, it's a darn good design and should have been pursued by the British a little longer.

[frnkeore]

Barry,
After buying it and checking it all out, I have reconsidered rechambering it. I will shoot it as is. I have a few HXP cases that I picked up last year so, I can shoot it as soon as I get a rear sight or scope on it. It should be a better cast bullet gun as is. The bore isn't very over size, either at .312 groove. Another reason for reconsidering is that I'm not fond of recoil and thats the end product if I were to utilized the larger chamber.

frank

[BarryinIN]

Good, I am glad to hear it. All of it. You guys have got me wanting to get out and finish my long delayed work with mine. I still have loads I put together three or four years ago to try in it.

[Anaxes]

Do you have a favorite cast load for yours?

I haven't tried it with cast bullets. One of my friends has a 1917 he shoots cast through, but I've only seen him use them at 25m. The typical load for most Enfields here would be a jacketed Privi 174gn with Viht N140. This one did fairly well with Sierra 174gn and about 42gns of N140.

Unfortunately cast rifle bullets are rare things here. I am hoping the new barrel will like Sierra, as most shooting I do with .303 is at 300m or 600m, etc.

[Dead Dog Jack]

The typical load for most Enfields here would be a jacketed Privi 174gn with Viht N140.

Are those boat tails? I don't think I've ever seen Privi bullets (or any components) available here in the states.

[Jim]

GRAF & SON (http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/920?grafs_vendor_filter=80&grafs_sorting_flydown=popularity&_swat_form_character_encoding=%C3%A4%E2%84%A2%C2%A E&_swat_form_process=grafs_sorting_form&_swat_form_serialized__swat_form_process=auRBAfJoH pPQd2FWx7MVIQ%7Cs%3A18%3A%22grafs_sorting_form%22% 3B&_swat_form_hidden_fields=fDk71VXcXJddn45*bdDhwg%7C a%3A1%3A%7Bi%3A0%3Bs%3A18%3A%22_swat_form_process% 22%3B%7D)has them.

[frnkeore]

Jim,
I pulled that one up and it only showed .308 bullets. So, I seached a little more and found this one.

http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/12614

Frank

[Jim]

Yeah, I wasn't payin' attention to the caliber that was being discussed. In any event, I'm glad you found them.

[bydand]

If the rifle has it's original barrel, there is no problem. Have six P14's, three with original volley sights and three I fitted Parker Hale micrometer sights to. Kept the rear sights and rear volley sight on those so they can be retrofitted if some future collector wants to.
Also one M1917, but it has RCAF markings LOL.
To agree with other folks, the original barrels were installed by machinery and when someone uses a barrel wrench to remove them it will usually crack the reciever. As stated, the only practical way is to make that lathe cut where the barrel joins the reciever to relieve the pressure.

[frnkeore]

Ok guys,
As can be seen in my picture, the rear sights have been sawed off. Well, when I bought it, I thought "no big problem" I'll put a scope base on it.

i'm a retired machinist, I have a Bridgeport mill and a lathe in my shop and have drilled and taped many guns for scope bases.

I milled off the saw marks with a insertable carbide end mill and noticed that the metal was hard but, I know they're made with nickle steel. Then, I started the center drill into the reciever ring and was suprised to hear it squeek and then dull completely :( So, I figured it was case hardened and that it would be soft enough under it........... NO WAY, it's hard all the way through. I had to use a 1/8" carbine end mill to make the hole, I couldn't even enlarge it with a HS drill. I did get it to .140 for the 8/40 tap with carbide but, I don't dare try to tap it.

I had no idea that my P14 would be that hard, are all P14's harden like this? I was told by a local gunsmith that the P17's aren't hard like this.

HELP!!!!!

Frank

PS
I did find a carbide tap at MSC (not 8/40 tho) for $100 but, that's what I paid for the rifle.

[303Guy]

... I don't dare try to tap it.
My Uncle was a gunsmith. A trick he told me about for drilling and tapping hard actions is to soften the spot to be drilled and tapped with an acetylene torch - a small sharp flame. Heat the exact spot quickly to red heat then withdraw the flame and let it cool. It should be tempered enough to drill and tap at the spot and that won't weaken the surrounding steel which is too hard anyway.

[Four Fingers of Death]

My Uncle was a gunsmith. A trick he told me about for drilling and tapping hard actions is to soften the spot to be drilled and tapped with an acetylene torch - a small sharp flame. Heat the exact spot quickly to red heat then withdraw the flame and let it cool. It should be tempered enough to drill and tap at the spot and that won't weaken the surrounding steel which is too hard anyway.

I saw a guy put a pencil mark where he wanted the holes, then cracked the spot lightly with a stick welder and knocked off the little dag straight away. A few deft strokes with the file, fitted the measurererupperer and drilled the holes. Perfect job, he had us worried for awhile though.

I have seen several sets of sights arc welded on. One was on an M17 which had seen two 308 barrels worn out then the barrel was recently rechambered to 3006 improved to take up the wear in the throat. The old pensioner guy who owns it can't afford a new barrel at this stage. It is still being used every Saturday afternoon with great success.

[303Guy]

As scary as arc welding onto an action is, and is of course a complete no-no, if done in the right places is just fine. Stick welding can even be done under water so you can see the potential. I'll probably TIG weld the rear scope base onto a No4 next, with the action under water and only the charger bridge exposed. Absolutely no problem with an SMLE as the charger bridge is riveted on anyway.

P.S I won't try the stick welder spot annealing trick simply because I would likely miss the spot!

[Four Fingers of Death]

When I practice, I am a pretty dab hand with a stick welder (althought I can never figure out what stick or amps to use :( ), but I won't be trying that method for softening the spot to be drilled.