converting a carcano to 7.62X39

[justashooter]

picked up a nicely sporterized 1891 carcano in 6.5 and thought what a shame that it is in a nearly unavailable caliber. sure, i have (100) 220 swift cases that could be trimmed and reformed for it, but what about something more common? sure enuf, i found a used SKS barrel at numrich, and am in the process of converting the rifle now.

initial thoughts: the carcano threads are reportedly 26.5 X 1 mm, while the SKS thread is 25 X 1 mm, so cutting off the original barrel in front of chamber and boring it out to about 18mm with a counterbore of 24mm at the chamber end, then turning the SKS barrel with a matching ring at chamber end, drop in from the breach and cross-pin after setting headspace by adjusting counterbore depth.

was going to adapt the floorplate to a single stack AK magazine, but have a friend that is willing to part with a half dozen carcano clips. will install a magazine block in the front of well and include a ramp, then remount the current sporter sights and walnut. plugging the existing gas vent on the SKS barrel and bluing a clean-up turning on the lathe should finish out the job.

these rifles languish out there for under 50 bux, so adding a $25 barrel and making a nice little shooting machine seems an inevitable process. pix to follow in a week or so.

pix on page 2.

[Me not you]

Something most people don't know about the Carcano, it's among the super strong actions, such as the Japanese Arisaka. I'm not an advocate of super hot loads by any means, but it is comforting to know that the rifle will probably be quite safe with anything reasonable you use in it (barring flaws or damage).
Apparently they can be exceptionally accurate too if in good condition.

BTW,
6.5mm Carcano brass is available from Grafs, and the proper bullet is 0.268 diameter.

I've thought of buying a M41 rifle (not carbine) myself.

[sqlbullet]

I am really curious to hear how this works for you. Just last weekend I was looking at my Carcano and had arrived at the same conclusion for a re-chamber. There are a gazillion of these out there. I wonder what the market would be for these if someone were to nail down the process.

Even better, figure out a way to alter the whole thing to use AK mags. Talk about a scout rifle :-).

[Multigunner]

i found a used SKS barrel at numrich, and am in the process of converting the rifle now.


How do you plan to deal with the huge honking gas port of the SKS barrel?

[sqlbullet]

i suppose you could tap it and put art screw in as long as it didn't extend to the rifleing. I was thinking of a 30 caliber blank and then cutting a 7.62x39 chamber. That would allow me to handled 309 instead of 312.

What is going to be done with that gas port?

[justashooter]

How do you plan to deal with the huge honking gas port of the SKS barrel?

now how am i gonna hang that thing over my shoulder if'n i don't have a sling swivel on a barrel band? band will be soft soldered in place over the port and about 3" in front of schnaubel forend.

[justashooter]

I am really curious to hear how this works for you. Just last weekend I was looking at my Carcano and had arrived at the same conclusion for a re-chamber. There are a gazillion of these out there. I wonder what the market would be for these if someone were to nail down the process.

Even better, figure out a way to alter the whole thing to use AK mags. Talk about a scout rifle :-).

thought about making more than 1, but people won't pay for anything these days unless it's like new and comercial. gone are the days of making a living as a gunsmith. but if i could find a barrel in 35 remington...

double stack is a no go due to bolt config. would not strip cartridge bases well. single stack would work if you relieved receiver feed lips to allow magazine feed lips to come right up under the bolt lugs (in horizontal travel orientation).

[MtGun44]

Actually, Hornady is supplying boxer primed ammo with correct diameter bullets that are
reported to massively improve the accuracy. It should be pretty easy to get the gun
shooting.

Bill

[gnoahhh]

Putting a screw in the gas port, or soldering a swivel base over it is ludicrous! They will blow right out/off. If you are insistent on throwing good money after bad, then a regular re-barreling job is in order. Remember, when it's all said and done what you'll have is, well, an old Carcano worth not much more than it's worth now, but only with a whole lot of your dollars hanging on it.

[sqlbullet]

It's the joy of the chase...The fun is saying "I bet you've never seen one of these" because you made it. That is the fun for me.

[DCM]

Actually, Hornady is supplying boxer primed ammo with correct diameter bullets that are
reported to massively improve the accuracy. It should be pretty easy to get the gun
shooting.

Bill

Yup!

Grafs .com sells brass for both the 6.5 and the 7.35.
These are great candidates for cast boolits.
I have to wonder how well the 7.62X39 will feed from the enbloc as the case taper is quite different than the standard rounds.
I have considered rebarreling a Carcno in the past and the only standard round that has the "same" case head, body taper, and OAL that would make it a "breeze is the 6.5X54MS. This round would also give you a standard 0.264" bore to work with without using a special reamer and dies that would be required for the 6.5 Carcano to function properly with a standard 0.264" bore.

If you are going to cover the gas port I would make a thick sleeve with set screws on the side opposite the gas port. or you could time the barrel so the gas port is up and you have a bubba magnaport. :bigsmyl2:

But on the other hand I can buy the rifle for $50.

[swheeler]

picked up a nicely sporterized 1891 carcano in 6.5 and thought what a shame that it is in a nearly unavailable caliber. sure, i have (100) 220 swift cases that could be trimmed and reformed for it, but what about something more common? sure enuf, i found a used SKS barrel at numrich, and am in the process of converting the rifle now.

initial thoughts: the carcano threads are reportedly 26.5 X 1 mm, while the SKS thread is 25 X 1 mm, so cutting off the original barrel in front of chamber and boring it out to about 18mm with a counterbore of 24mm at the chamber end, then turning the SKS barrel with a matching ring at chamber end, drop in from the breach and cross-pin after setting headspace by adjusting counterbore depth.

was going to adapt the floorplate to a single stack AK magazine, but have a friend that is willing to part with a half dozen carcano clips. will install a magazine block in the front of well and include a ramp, then remount the current sporter sights and walnut. plugging the existing gas vent on the SKS barrel and bluing a clean-up turning on the lathe should finish out the job.

these rifles languish out there for under 50 bux, so adding a $25 barrel and making a nice little shooting machine seems an inevitable process. pix to follow in a week or so.

"nicely sporterized" sounds ,well ,NICE. Brass is readily available and bullets of .268 diameter from Hornady are on sale right now from Grafs, I bought a bag of 100 blems for 18.00. As far as I can tell the blemish is discoloration, after 30 minutes in the tumbler they look as good as the boxed regular ones, bet they shoot as well too. Why not leave it as 6.5 Carcano, shoot it and enjoy it for what it is.

[flounderman]

I don't know where the gas port will be located, but you can put a screw into it and a sleeve over it and it isn't going anywhere. I had a magnaported 7 mag with a short barrel and it was an eardrum destroyer. I have a sleeve over it, now. depending on the location, you could put a front sling swivel base on the sleeve

[justashooter]

It's the joy of the chase...The fun is saying "I bet you've never seen one of these" because you made it. That is the fun for me.

bingo, we have a winner!

as far as having a ton of money in a piece of junk, well, it ain't a piece of junk, and it's about $75 total cost to finish in 30AK. now that it shoots cheap ammo, it is double cheap.

[Multigunner]

I don't know where the gas port will be located, but you can put a screw into it and a sleeve over it and it isn't going anywhere. I had a magnaported 7 mag with a short barrel and it was an eardrum destroyer. I have a sleeve over it, now. depending on the location, you could put a front sling swivel base on the sleeve

The SKS gas port is about midway and on my Yugo it was big enough to take the shaft of a Q-tip when cleaning. The gas port is raked backwards, so if a plug blew out it would be headed in the general direction of the shooter. If fired from the shoulder a blown plug would likely sail over the shooter's head, though theres no guarantee that it would, but fired from the hip it would head straight for the shooter's neck or face. Also if firing on a range in prone or sitting position a bystander behind the shooter might be placed in jeopardy.

7.62X39 rifles built with .308 bores seem to shoot okay. Theres some increase in pressure when a bullet is a couple of thousandths over sized, but the standard 7.62X39 ammo is not a hot load to begin with, .308 J-word bullets could be used for handloads, and cast boolit loads should be no problem.

[Buckshot]

7.62X39 rifles built with .308 bores seem to shoot okay. Theres some increase in pressure when a bullet is a couple of thousandths over sized, but the standard 7.62X39 ammo is not a hot load to begin with.................

..............I've seen published 7.62x39 load data showing 52K pressures. I wouldn't want to shoot it and it's .311" or .312" bullets in my 7.62x39 small ring Mauser with it's .308" barrel.

...............Buckshot

[justashooter]

The SKS gas port is about midway and on my Yugo it was big enough to take the shaft of a Q-tip when cleaning. The gas port is raked backwards, so if a plug blew out it would be headed in the general direction of the shooter. If fired from the shoulder a blown plug would likely sail over the shooter's head, though theres no guarantee that it would, but fired from the hip it would head straight for the shooter's neck or face. Also if firing on a range in prone or sitting position a bystander behind the shooter might be placed in jeopardy.

7.62X39 rifles built with .308 bores seem to shoot okay. Theres some increase in pressure when a bullet is a couple of thousandths over sized, but the standard 7.62X39 ammo is not a hot load to begin with, .308 J-word bullets could be used for handloads, and cast boolit loads should be no problem.

mountains out of molehills.

of course, the gas vent exists. it can be welded shut, but that would warp the barrel. it can be brased or silver soldered shut, same result. it can be wrapped in a .005 clearance barrel band that is plumber soldered in place, no worries.

chinese SKS barrels tend to run .311, so are GTG with cheap surplus soft point ammo.

[Multigunner]

..............I've seen published 7.62x39 load data showing 52K pressures. I wouldn't want to shoot it and it's .311" or .312" bullets in my 7.62x39 small ring Mauser with it's .308" barrel.

...............Buckshot

Tests run on a Ruger single shot rifle built using a .308 barrel and chambered for the .303 showed an aproximate 7-8% increase in pressure when standard .303 ammo was used.

The SAAMI maximum working pressure is 45,000 PSI, thats PSI not CUP. That figure sounds a bit low to me, perhaps its a misprint and they meant CUP.
The European CIP standard is up to nearly 52,000 PSI.
A Carcano action in very good condition should handle this sort of pressure on occasion,(7+% above 52,000) but I would be concerned about feeding it a steady diet of maximum pressure loads if the bore was much smaller than the bullet.

7+% percent above 45,000 PSI would not be much to worry about.

In other words a 7.62X39 rifle with .308 bore isn't likely to turn into a pipe bomb from using ammunition with .311 bullets, but it could cause excessive wear to the action and reduces the safety margin.

Still I figure a decent .308 barrel beats a SKS barrel with plugged gasport.

If good Enfield .303 barrels were easily available those would be about as well suited to the 7.62 X39 as any other. Problem is theres a lot of Enfield owners who would jump on a decent barrel.
Then theres the problem of oversized bores which the Enfields are notorious for.

Some SMLE rifles were converted to 7.62X39 by simply setting the barrel back, the front portion of the .303 chamber being a close match to the 7.62X39 chamber.

[gnoahhh]

Big difference in pressure between midway down the barrel and out at the muzzle. I still think someone would be nuts for trying to cap a gas port with that much pressure behind it. Sooner or later she'll blow. Probably sooner.

[sqlbullet]

Rotate it 90 degrees and have it edm'd out and add some on the other side and call them muzzle brakes

[Frank46]

About the gas port of the sks barrels. Install one shortened setcrew 1st then do another firts a liberal coatinh of some good threadlocker. Frank

[justashooter]

see photos of the work in progress.

original barrel stub was cut off and drilled 18mm with a 24mm X 4mm counter bore as earlier stated. barrel was contoured to match. head spaced, cross-pinned, and plumber soldered.

i added an FN/FAL combo device after shortening the barrel to 14.5". combo is silver soldered and makes 16.25" so is legal. this mod covered the gas vent so no worries.

the stock had 16"pull, so i cut it back to 14.25, but have not yet reshaped the recoil pad or added sling swivels. added a side mount for scope made from 1/8 X 3" flat bar that holds line of sight offset 1" left of bore and 2" above center line. this gives perfect left eye alignment with existing stock. working on thumb screws. the little red c clamp is not a permanent feature.

i used a single stack AK mag,which required relief of the lower area of the action and widening of the mag well, the addition of a front lug point, and build-up of the stock bloc-clip release to act as a mag release. controlled feed design makes the 7.62X39 feed slick. no worries. 36" OAL.

[wellfedirishman]

Justashooter, that is a really nice looking setup!

Could you please give details of the work done to relieve the magwell for the AK magazine and the modifications to the lug point and stock bloc-clip release? Some pics of the action without the mag installed would be great.

That's an awesome little brush gun.

[perotter]

Nice.

[HollowPoint]

I'm glad you didn't let any one stifle your dreams. I hate it when that happens.

That's a nice looking finished project. How does it shoot?

HollowPoint

[justashooter]

I'm glad you didn't let any one stifle your dreams. I hate it when that happens.

That's a nice looking finished project. How does it shoot?

HollowPoint

test fired yesterday with a friend. scope mounting screws did not hold tight, so i am upgrading to 1/4 X 28 and locktite. suffice to say from the shooters position it handles like a dream. low recoil and noise. those standing on the side get a chance to enjoy the effect of the brake. no visual signature at sunset. total loaded weight of nearly 8 pounds, with balance in the middle of magazine well. a bit heavier than i wanted, but the carcano action is built like a tank, and the wood is a good dense grain black walnut.

the best part? less than a hundred bux en totem.

175659

[swheeler]

Any worries about the soft soldered and pinned barrel working loose after a few hundred rounds?

[justashooter]

Any worries about the soft soldered and pinned barrel working loose after a few hundred rounds?

like i said, it has a positive stop in the breach end, with a counterbore of the original barrel stub and a complementary turning of the new barrel breach. can't go anywhere.

[swheeler]

I'm not too worried about it going anywhere, but you basicly installed a barrel liner that is only supported at the breech end, a slip fit(not pressed or you wouldn't be able to get solder to flow into the joint) so I was wondering if it might loosen(solder is soft) after repeated firing and the barrel vibrating. Noone ever seen a pinned barrel SKS that never put two bullets anywhere close to each other after it had sent a few hundred rounds down range? I have. Keep us posted on accuracy results after you've given it a good work out, just curious.

[DCM]

test fired yesterday with a friend. scope mounting screws did not hold tight, so i am upgrading to 1/4 X 28 and locktite. suffice to say from the shooters position it handles like a dream. low recoil and noise. those standing on the side get a chance to enjoy the effect of the brake. no visual signature at sunset. total loaded weight of nearly 8 pounds, with balance in the middle of magazine well. a bit heavier than i wanted, but the carcano action is built like a tank, and the wood is a good dense grain black walnut.

the best part? less than a hundred bux en totem.

I know I initially questioned the feasibility of this, but I am truly glad to see this worked out for you. Dare I say I may infringe an your patents! It looks way better than I imagined with a low cost and readily available ammo to boot!

GOOD WORK!

[Multigunner]

I seem to remember there being some UK conversions of the Carcano to 7.62X51 that were accomplised by threading a .308 bore barrel into the cutoff shank of the original barrel. These were products of a commercial gunmaking firm, though I forget which company.
The converted Carcano was mainly for high power match shooting.

I once saw a thread on these where an ower of a similar conversion told how an overload had caused the barrel to jump two threads. The owner found no cracks so he just screwed the barrel back into the shank with no further problems. I guess the original barrel steel is very elastic. Probably the "Poldi" steel I've read about.

The British tried a pressed fit and pinned composite barrel for the No.4 rifle at one time. The barrel and shank with chamber were made separately.
These did not hold up well and soon worked loose, though I don't think any blew out.

PS
High Force 44 is the strongest silver solder I've ever run across. It gives the holding power of brazing but at a much lower heat so heat treatments aren't compromised.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Actually, Hornady is supplying boxer primed ammo with correct diameter bullets that are
reported to massively improve the accuracy. It should be pretty easy to get the gun
shooting.

Bill

UNless you just want a shop project, this would be the way to go. Privi Partisan brass is available as well. SMLEs convert to 7.62x39 with the original barrel!

Practicality aside, look like an interesting project.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Braze a little exhaust pipe on it? Pointing out to the side of course. lol.

Either that or cut it off, re-jig the stock and end up with a single shot or mag fed bolt pistol.

[justashooter]

7284872846

per an inquiry, the update is that the upgrade in scope mounting screws to 1/4 28 is holding solid, and we are on paper at 25 yards with a 1" group offhand, so i should expect half that or better from a rest. the barrel is 14" now, so velocity is prolly around 2200 for the 125 grain spitzer. with a scope 2" over bore and crossing line of sight at 25 yards we are back on line of sight at 150, no more than 2" above between, and about 4 down at 200 yards.

next project is hogging out a 357 maximum barrel blank to 35 remington and mating to same action type $50 donor gun and whatever box magazine fits and feeds single stack. looking for magazine and die set. have tons of factory ammo, but sold the dies and empties to some nice fellow on this board some months ago.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Actually a SMLE or No4 used barrel might do it. I have a new No4 Bbl in the safe, but I'm a long way away and don't want to part with it anyway, lol.

[Dark Helmet]

Why not a 358 Gremlin? http://www.bfgcartridges.com/358Gremlin.html
You might even be able to get a threaded, chambered barrel.

[justashooter]

Why not a 358 Gremlin? http://www.bfgcartridges.com/358Gremlin.html
You might even be able to get a threaded, chambered barrel.

a neat alternative, but i happen to have 10 boxes of factory 35 remington on hand, and the donor barrel. also thinking that i can load spitzers to 52 KSI in this action, as opposed toflat points at 38-40 KSI loads designed for lever guns. should approach 358 win ballistics.

anywho, the range report from "Frozen Nutz 10" is that i am on a 6" plate at 100 yards reliably. function is 100% after a total of about 60 rounds downrange.

[foragg]

Did you have to make any adjustments to the Bolt or extractor?

[justashooter]

no adjustments to bolt or extractor. 30AK is same base as both 6.5 and 7.35 italian. controlled feed requires a single stack magazine.

[JIMinPHX]

picked up a nicely sporterized 1891 carcano in 6.5 ...

...these rifles languish out there for under 50 bux,


I haven't seen one of those offered for $50 in quite a while. If I did stumble upon one in good condition at a price like that, it would probably follow me home.

[anchorman]

like i said, it has a positive stop in the breach end, with a counterbore of the original barrel stub and a complementary turning of the new barrel breach. can't go anywhere.

I did one of these a while back but used a different technique I had a press fit SKS barrel (new) that I bought from sarco inc when they had them cheap. 3/4-16 Threads were cut on this, about an inch and a half long. I removed the original barrel from the action on the carcano with much effort and a lot of penetrating oil... my home made action and barrel wrenches were a little undersized. next, the barrel was cut off, leaving at stub and the threads. maybe an 3/4 or 1 inch of the old barrel was left in order to make it easy to remove again if needed. this was chucked in the lathe with copper wire wrapped in the threads to keep them from getting crushed by the jaws. I centered the barrel stub as well as I could (it had been bored out and re-sleeved by the italians in about 1924), using whatever original concentric surfaces available. I bored out the barrel stub on the lathe, then used a 3/4 - 16 tap to cut the internal threads, since this was much easier than trying to single point with such a small hole. I made a barrel nut out of 1" 4140 steel hex rod that I had laying about in my shop, and tapped it in the lathe also. this locks the barrel tight into the barrel stub after headspacing.

I probably should have bought gages, but I just took a sampling of live rounds, and put a piece of scotch tape on the back (maybe two??), and tightened the barrel into the action (firing pin removed from bolt), until it was hard to close the bolt, then backed it off just a hair until it closed easily again. tightened down the barrel locking nut, and it was good to go.

I took it to a friend's farm and put a round in with just the primer, no bullet. got it tied to his shooting bench, and then went behind a tree with a long string. ping! worked well enough. primer looked o.k., so I put in a live round, and fired that down range from behind my tree. that case and primer looked fine, so I shouldered it... was a beauty to fire.

since then I've been busy trying to get other stuff done, and haven't put any sights on yet, but that is in the works in the next few weeks. all told, I have about $160 in this, it was a fun project. still looking to install the single stack ak mag, or otherwise modify so I can use the en bloc clips from the bottom.

[anchorman]

i used a single stack AK mag,which required relief of the lower area of the action and widening of the mag well, the addition of a front lug point, and build-up of the stock bloc-clip release to act as a mag release. controlled feed design makes the 7.62X39 feed slick. no worries. 36" OAL.

justashooter, do you mind posting a few detailed pictures of the mag well modifications you did? maybe a drawing with dimensions on how you chopped and built up the existing magazine well? I can pretty well tell from what you've got, but would like any other details you can provide to save me reinventing the wheel here.

thanks!