"Bubba" Showed Up: Gun Damaged In The Shop

[mrbillbus]

I have an old Ithaca single shot 12 ga. My plan was to take the rib off the barrel and install a scope mount. I have a nice little spot for deer hunting that will never have a shot over 35/40 yards. I thought I would build a slug gun and if it didn't sling slugs accurately, I would stoke it with 3" 00 buckshot. A nice little 2x scope and we would be in business. Cheap gun, parts on hand a little shop time. What could go wrong?

Well, I got it all set up and had the depth stop set on the drill press. Somehow the stop slipped and on the second and a third hole I broke through to the chamber. Grrrrrrr.

Is it possible to plug those holes somehow and safely fire the gun again or am I totally hosed?

Bill

[waksupi]

I would not fire it.

[mrbillbus]

I would not fire it.

No plans for that. Not without proper repairs, if that is even possible.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Have you got a fireplace to hang it over? I wouldn`t want to take the risk of firing it either. Saw a similar thing happen to a nice 870 Rem. by a "professional `smith. He was mounting a cantalever base on the barrel and drilled thru the chamber twice. Worse yet he actually mounted the mount with screws that projected into the chamber! If we had`nt seen this poor guy trying to chamber shells in that gun and then stopped him when we saw the problem - who knows what might have happened. I understand there was a spirited conversation with the gunshop owner about this, a new barrel and cash refund prevented a lawsuit.Robert

[waksupi]

That is why I will only use a mill to do this type of work. I don't trust drill presses for any kind of precision.

[Reg]

It is not safe to plug those holes and fire the gun----- period !!
Look around, it is not uncommon to find another barrel and many times they fit right up or can be easly fitted.
Your hands, your eyes or even your life is simply not worth risking and the risk is very , very high.

:coffeecom

[waksupi]

I recall some years ago, a rather well known gunsmith had this type of problem with a BPCR. He apparently didn't realize it when it happened, and the owner didn't catch it when he (hopefully!) looked through the bore before shooting. At the first shot, his business sight was air born, with interesting little curls of smoke coming from the holes in the barrel. The gunsmith replaced the barrel.

[Junior1942]

You can buy used shotgun barrels galore on gunbroker.

My found 12 ga Stevens shoots slugs great after I hacksawed off the barrel. I would like some kind of better rear sight or even a 2x scope if there was a way to mount it. I don't trust a superglued rear sight!

[Molly]

Well, it CAN be repaired and shot safely (though some will cringe when they read this) if the wall thickness over the chamber is thick enough to thread for a sight screw plug.

Years ago, I was given a British 303 that had been drilled through into the chamber. After considerable thought, I threaded the hole and degreased it. Then I plugged it with a sight screw. (The headless variety, not one used to attach scope bases. This was one of the little plug screws that come in factory drilled holes when the gun is new.) The plug screw was seated deeply enough that a scope base screw could be - and later was - used over it,

Now I did a little preparation before going any further. I found a FIRED 303 case case that the bolt would close on easily. Then I cleaned it and gave it a good coat of wax. Simonize if I recall correctly.

Then I turned the rifle over, mixed some slow curing two component epoxy and used an eyedropper to put a bit of the mixed epoxy into the hole in the chamber. Add it to the edge of the hole so it will flow down inside, and not form a bubble.

Now I chambered the waxed case and set the gun aside for the night. Next day, I ejected the case and examined the chamber. There was just a trace of an epoxy spot that wiped out easily with some wet-or-dry paper on a dowel.

This 'repair' was tested by first firing with several rounds of factory ammo, with no apparent effect. Then it was tested with some handloads giving a bit higher prressure than factory, if case expansion is any guide. Still no problem. I mounted the scope base and used this rifle as a combo "car trunk" / "beater" "bad rainy weather deer rifle" and "loaner rifle" for quite a few years before giving it (and a good supply of ammo) to a farmer who was kind enough to let me hunt his property. It's stilll in use today.

A couple of points to consider: The 303 British operates at pressures considerably above shotgun pressures. Since the 'repair' worked well here, it SHOULD prove adequate for your shotgun pressures if the hole is deep enough for you to get a few threads of a plug engaged.

HOWEVER, something like this is very much a judgement call. If your barrel is thin over the chamber, you might well consider the cost of a replacement barrel well worth the peace of mind. It could be worth it in any case. But you have little to lose at this point. If you decide to give it a try and the plug blows out after a few magnum loads, you haven't lost anytjhing - assuming you're smart enough to tie it to a tire for a box of shells before putting it to your shoulder. It worked for me under conditions I consider notably more stressful, but also with a notably heavier chamber thickness, and your results may or may not parallel mine. How adventurous do you feel?

[nanuk]

Several months ago, I read a thread almost the same as this one...

same answers too....

I guess it all depends on your comfort level

[Superfly]

could you tig weld the holes closed and then re drill ??????

[trench]

It better be one hell of a tig man, and best put heat control gel in the chamber and all around the hole, staying 1/2" or so away from the edges of the hole. The gel is available at most welding supply stores. I once saw a demo where a guy ran a welding torch across his hand, which had a thick coating of this gel! Talk about having faith in your product!

[Red River Rick]

Mr. Bill:

How much value do you put on your eyesight, fingers, etc? Get the point!

As a Journeyman Machinist/Tool & Die maker with almost 30 years experience and lots of gunsmithing experience as well, throw that barrel in the garbage and buy a replacement.

Ric gave you the best advice. Disregard all the other cockahula ideas............for your own safety!

RRR

[John Taylor]

Usually the problem with TIG welding on a barrel is the rapid cooling causing a hard spot. Also all welds shrink so it could make a tight spot in the chamber which could cause extraction problems. I TIG weld barrel quite often but I usually put a liner in after the welding.
A screw could be used as a plug and polished off smooth in the chamber. I would clean good and use red loctite on the screw. Don't care for epoxy repair in a chamber but if it works why not, as long as it has a screw to back it up.
You could probably find a used barrel cheaper than taking it to a gunsmith for repair.

Several years ago I talked with a fellow that was upset with another gun shop. Seems he had a rear sight installed on his barrel and they ran the screws into the bore and gave it to him that way. He just happen to look through the bore before shooting it and saw the screws blocking it. Good thing he didn't try to shoot it.

[rtracy2001]

I truly wish to be educated here, so bear with me...

Could you mount the scope mount with extra long screws (so they protrude into the chamber) grind them off close to the chamber wall, and then use a finish reamer to ensure the screws are flush with the rest of the chamber? Quality thread adheisives can ensure the screws never back out.

What is the catch? Shotgun pressures are not that high (I'd have to think hard before trying it with a rifle).

Most thread strength calculations show that if you have a depth of at least 1.5 thread diameters then the shear strength of the threads exceeds the tensile strength of the screw (or nut) used. Assuming the screw material is at least as strong as the base metal. . .?

The only thing that could be problematic would be the chamber stretch upon firing. (it may tend to deform the screw hole a bit).

[trench]

It could be done, if you were in Rhodesia or some place where getting another barrel was out of the question, but otherwise, not even close to being worth all the work.

[wgr]

sale it to someone that need a barrel for a stub

[Mk42gunner]

Sounds to me like you need a new barrel, but you can use the one you have with a liner in it to make a rifle or smaller guage shotgun.

Robert

[mrbillbus]

Thanks for all the replies.

I found a barrel on gunbroker but it appears to have a bulge. I'll just keep looking.

I do like the liner idea. Make it a 20 ga. Hmmm

I talked to a friend and he suggested (with tongue in cheek) that I use it as a cannon, now that it has a touch hole. :mrgreen:

Bill

[Bret4207]

I've done the same thing as Molly in the past. I wouldn't hesitate with a shotgun.

BTW- that wasn't Bubba that showed up, that was Mr. Murphy. Bubba woulda just duct taped the base on.

[drhall762]

Sleeve the barrel and make a "bunny gun" out of it. Then you can enjoy it for what it is, a mistake that you resurrected. I would never plug, seal, screw or weld holes in a chamber and I have seen this problem before. I have a DB 12ga coach gun that someone tried to cut just in front of the right chamber with a carbide circular saw. The right barrel is getting a nice .44WCF sleeve. Might be an interesting gun when done. We'll see.

No matter what, the gun can be replaced. You cannot!

Just my 2 cents.

[longbow]

I guess I gotta throw in my $0.02 worth too.

First thing I thought about was muzzleloaders with touch hole liners, bolsters and nipples all screwed into barrel at the breech end

Many muzzleloaders operate at or above shotgun chamber pressures and those fittings are far larger than a screw hole for a sight base.

rtracy2001 is correct as well with regards to thread strength.

Also, if you hadn't quite drilled through to the chamber but left almost no metal between bottom of hole and chamber, would we be having this discussion? Would that be any safer?

I can't see how one or two holes separated by several diameters would cause a safety issue here. I would not want to see a row of several holes fairly close together though, that would certainly result in weakness.

As mentioned, the screws would have to be cut flush with the chamber wall or you will get extraction problems.

Is it safe? I think so and if in doubt it could be proofed to be sure.

Is it worth the effort? Probably not unless you can do it all yourself and there is a reason to want that shotgun. I can buy a used single shot shotgun for $100.00 or less and currently have 3 that I paid $50.00 each for two and $75.00 for one. All are good quality and all are in good shape.

What did I do to mount a rear sight? I soldered it on.

Just my thoughts.

Longbow

[kappy]

There are a lot of barrels out there... BUT... you only get one set of vital organs. See what a smith has to say, I guess.

[bubba.50]

aw'right now. i'm gettin' mighty tired of bein' blamed for ever'thang goes wrong aroun' h'yer:cry:. i'm just gonna take my baler wire, coathangers, and duck tape an' go home:mad:. but seriously, i would agree with mk42gunner to sleeve it to 20ga and be done with it. with all the improvements in ammo the last few yrs you won't be handicappin' yerself any. my opinion and yer welcome to it. luck and have a good'en neighbor, bubba.

[kappy]

aw'right now. i'm gettin' mighty tired of bein' blamed for ever'thang goes wrong aroun' h'yer:cry:. i'm just gonna take my baler wire, coathangers, and duck tape an' go home:mad:. but seriously, i would agree with mk42gunner to sleeve it to 20ga and be done with it. with all the improvements in ammo the last few yrs you won't be handicappin' yerself any. my opinion and yer welcome to it. luck and have a good'en neighbor, bubba.

Holy ****! After all these years, I've been complaining about and maligning some mythical character... and he's actually a real feller. Got the beard and everything!

:holysheep

[adrians]

i wouldn't shoot it .
kinda like putting magnum 31/2 " shells thro a damascus oldie ,not good.
re-barrel and go get em. :evil::popcorn::twisted:

[KCSO]

I have heard of pluggin the holes and have heard that is works but have never been desperate enough to try it. What I have done is tig weld the holes and then re cut the chamber. This works and will stand any pressure that you will put throough a shotgun, but... If you don't have your own reamers and a welder you are looking at paying somebody as much as a replacment barrel will cost. Bottom line, you should check gunborker for a barrel first and then is none is availlablle find a gunsmith who will repair it right.

[Milsurp Junkie]

Buy another barrel for 12 gauge. Use the one that you have for a barrel stub, or sleeve it for 45 long bolt.

[smokemjoe]

Well, it CAN be repaired and shot safely (though some will cringe when they read this) if the wall thickness over the chamber is thick enough to thread for a sight screw plug.

Years ago, I was given a British 303 that had been drilled through into the chamber. After considerable thought, I threaded the hole and degreased it. Then I plugged it with a sight screw. (The headless variety, not one used to attach scope bases. This was one of the little plug screws that come in factory drilled holes when the gun is new.) The plug screw was seated deeply enough that a scope base screw could be - and later was - used over it,

Now I did a little preparation before going any further. I found a FIRED 303 case case that the bolt would close on easily. Then I cleaned it and gave it a good coat of wax. Simonize if I recall correctly.

Then I turned the rifle over, mixed some slow curing two component epoxy and used an eyedropper to put a bit of the mixed epoxy into the hole in the chamber. Add it to the edge of the hole so it will flow down inside, and not form a bubble.

Now I chambered the waxed case and set the gun aside for the night. Next day, I ejected the case and examined the chamber. There was just a trace of an epoxy spot that wiped out easily with some wet-or-dry paper on a dowel.

This 'repair' was tested by first firing with several rounds of factory ammo, with no apparent effect. Then it was tested with some handloads giving a bit higher prressure than factory, if case expansion is any guide. Still no problem. I mounted the scope base and used this rifle as a combo "car trunk" / "beater" "bad rainy weather deer rifle" and "loaner rifle" for quite a few years before giving it (and a good supply of ammo) to a farmer who was kind enough to let me hunt his property. It's stilll in use today.

A couple of points to consider: The 303 British operates at pressures considerably above shotgun pressures. Since the 'repair' worked well here, it SHOULD prove adequate for your shotgun pressures if the hole is deep enough for you to get a few threads of a plug engaged.

HOWEVER, something like this is very much a judgement call. If your barrel is thin over the chamber, you might well consider the cost of a replacement barrel well worth the peace of mind. It could be worth it in any case. But you have little to lose at this point. If you decide to give it a try and the plug blows out after a few magnum loads, you haven't lost anytjhing - assuming you're smart enough to tie it to a tire for a box of shells before putting it to your shoulder. It worked for me under conditions I consider notably more stressful, but also with a notably heavier chamber thickness, and your results may or may not parallel mine. How adventurous do you feel?

Years back when you could get P14s in 303 that were drill rifles with a hole drilled cross ways throught the barrel, I did the same thing befor I pulled the barrel off just to see if I could blow it up, Tapped like 3/8s X16, finished the inside of the bolt heads to same conture as the chamber, Loaded up max loads and mounted it in a tire, couldnt blow it up and case extracted with no troubles.
Next time we took a old single barrel shotgun and drilled out the chamber to get a 50 Cal.BMG load
shell to fit, glassed in for it wouldnt slide ahead when fired. Had glass also around the bullet, Tied it up to a boulder in the quarry and pulled it off with a long cord.It went bang and never blowed it up.That was over 50 years ago when a case of Dym. was $15.00, At 15 years old we having fun, lucky we are alive today, Joe

[Reload3006]

+1 with Red River your eyes fingers life isnt worth a 50 dollar shot gun ... that you can easily replace

[mrbillbus]

I have looked high and low and the only sleeves I am finding are chamber tubes. Where would I go to find a full length sub gauge tube?

I did find a used cylinder bore barrel on gunbroker.com but it would put me right back at the start needing to drill and tap.

A rifled 20 ga full length sub gauge tube would be great.

Or I could just go buy a Mossberg 500 sale special and call it good. :mrgreen:

[leadman]

Briley makes full length tubes. The 12gauge to 20 gauge is $600.00.! That Mossberg is looking better all the time, isn't it?

[JKH]

loc-tite (red) te screw in place & dress it flush with the chamber wall, the method the one poster used for his .303 British is great, it won't bow out & will be safe.

If you have any doubts research how a pressure test barrel works with a copper crusher pellet, the chamber is drilled & tapped for a tube that has a piston the sell "pushes" against & a copper slug is placed on top wth a cap screwed on to retain it & for the piston to crush the slug against. This is how chamber pressure was measured before strain gauges were invented, the piston is roughly 1/4" in diameter & the tube larger, considerably more surface area for a shell to "Push" against than a tiny scope mount screw & they handle pressures upwards of 10 more than a shotgun shell produces without letting go! If it were mine I would not hesitate a moment to repair it with a screw.
Also, as another poster noted about muzzle loaders & all the parts threaded into the chamber, granted black powder doesn't generate pressures like a smokeless load but think about the Savage muzzle loader made to use smokeless rifle powder, no problem there!
Do it man!

[Fishman]

I have looked high and low and the only sleeves I am finding are chamber tubes. Where would I go to find a full length sub gauge tube?

I did find a used cylinder bore barrel on gunbroker.com but it would put me right back at the start needing to drill and tap.

A rifled 20 ga full length sub gauge tube would be great.

Or I could just go buy a Mossberg 500 sale special and call it good. :mrgreen:

I think Mr. John Taylor who weighed in earlier could fix you up. That is the route I would investigate first.

[halfslow]

One thing is for certain:
You can't do nothing to it.
Whether you decide to buy that Mossberg or simply leave it in the safe for a while, remember that you may may not be around when one of your heirs or some other innocent person takes it out and tries to shoot it.
Either fix the hole or replace the barrel.
Soon.

[Shiloh]

Several months ago, I read a thread almost the same as this one...

same answers too....

I guess it all depends on your comfort level

That's a good way to put it.
I fall into the category os not firing it.

Shiloh

[Mal Paso]

What? Not One JB Weld story?:grin:

[303Guy]

Solder the plug screw in maybe? Silver solder? Is there anything stopping the use of a chamber sleeve?

[mrbillbus]

One thing is for certain:
You can't do nothing to it.
Whether you decide to buy that Mossberg or simply leave it in the safe for a while, remember that you may may not be around when one of your heirs or some other innocent person takes it out and tries to shoot it.
Either fix the hole or replace the barrel.
Soon.

The gun is in pieces so the risk is pretty low at this point. But your point is well taken. The military didn't plug all those VFW guns for nothing!

[mrbillbus]

Solder the plug screw in maybe? Silver solder? Is there anything stopping the use of a chamber sleeve?

Price. ;-)

[Hang Fire]

I have an old Ithaca single shot 12 ga. My plan was to take the rib off the barrel and install a scope mount. I have a nice little spot for deer hunting that will never have a shot over 35/40 yards. I thought I would build a slug gun and if it didn't sling slugs accurately, I would stoke it with 3" 00 buckshot. A nice little 2x scope and we would be in business. Cheap gun, parts on hand a little shop time. What could go wrong?

Well, I got it all set up and had the depth stop set on the drill press. Somehow the stop slipped and on the second and a third hole I broke through to the chamber. Grrrrrrr.

Is it possible to plug those holes somehow and safely fire the gun again or am I totally hosed?

Bill

Just me, but I would D&T, put in a plug screw, dress it flush and shoot shot shells without a qualm.

[Hang Fire]

Have you got a fireplace to hang it over? I wouldn`t want to take the risk of firing it either. Saw a similar thing happen to a nice 870 Rem. by a "professional `smith. He was mounting a cantalever base on the barrel and drilled thru the chamber twice. Worse yet he actually mounted the mount with screws that projected into the chamber! If we had`nt seen this poor guy trying to chamber shells in that gun and then stopped him when we saw the problem - who knows what might have happened. I understand there was a spirited conversation with the gunshop owner about this, a new barrel and cash refund prevented a lawsuit.Robert

We are looking at shotgun shot shell pressures, not .308 60,000 psi rifle pressures.

10 gauge 11,000
12 gauge 11,500 (except 3-1/2 in.)
12 gauge 3 1/2 in.14,000
16 gauge 11,500
20 Gauge 12,000
28 gauge 12,500
.410 Bore 2 1/2 in. 12,500
.410 Bore 3 in. 13,500

Smokeless powder shot shells operate at considerably lower pressure than most muzzleloaders with black powder. Would bet C&B revolvers with six screw in percussion nipples looking shooter in the eye, operate at same or higher pressure than a modern shotshell generates.

So I guess everyone with a caplock muzzeloader of any sort, better hurry up real quick and throw their barrels into the garbage.

[Hang Fire]

Put in a fudge factor and say the shotgun is operating at 15,000 psi, force is caculated by diameter and the pressure operating on it.

Say the screw is a 8-32 with a diameter of 0.164", just off the top of my head, I calculate the force being exerted on the 8-32 screw is around 1,200 pounds.