32-20 Deer rifle?

[mooko]

Haven't seen any discussion of the hunting capabilities of the 32-20. I bought a 1918 made 1892 rifle last summer. I have been shooting it with light loads, but I think it would carry nice in the woods here in the cultural wilderness of north Mississippi. Ranges would be under 50 yds. Velocity with hard cast 3118 115 gr. should be about 1800 fps. Any opinions?

[dk17hmr]

It would probably work. One of my dads buddies use to tell me a story about shooting a very large Michigan whitetail with his grandfathers lever action 32-20 and dropping it IIRC with a high neck shot. I think with the lighter bullet and the velocity I would try and get some pure lead mixed in with the alloy so it has more of a chance to expand.

Check out Ranch Dogs 313-115gr gascheck mold, if you could get velocity up around 2000fps I bet there would be little talk about if it would be effective.

[pietro]

Under 50yds + deer earache = DRT. :drinks:

.

[ohiochuck]

Paco has a discussion of the 32-20 on another site. It is quite interesting.

[cdet69]

It has a narrow range limit. But at 75 yards or less it is a killer. Shot placement is the key. But then again is it not always.

[Reg]

You would have to call your shots but the 32-20 has taken a lot of deer.

;)

[Bret4207]

I have no problems with using an adequately loaded 32-20 with a decently designed boolit if you can place your shot. But why in the world do you think you need and HARDCAST boolit? I've taken cast in the 32-20 rifle up over 2200 fps with straight ww + a smidge of tin. You don't and won;t need a HARDCAST boolit.

End of rant....grumble, grumble....stupid HARDACST advertising hypes gonna push me over the edge some day....grumble, grumble.........

[williamwaco]

End of rant....grumble, grumble....stupid HARDCAST advertising hypes gonna push me over the edge some day....grumble, grumble.........




:goodpost:


Thanks, I enjoyed that.


.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I shoot groundhog with 32-20 cast in 50/50. Large Illinois ground hog are tough but the 50/50 (Lyman 311316) will bust through both shoulders when powered with 5.5 grains Unique. No reason a base of the ear or spine shot on a whitetail would end up any different and will cause some serious internal damage.
Mike in Peru

[quilbilly]

A couple years back I "wet phonebook" tested my 32-20 Contender at 40 yards. At 1500 fps, the Lee 115 gr flat nosed GC boolit got 17" of penetration and perfect expansion. At the same velocity but different load the Speer 30 cal 120 gr hollowpoint jacketed got 11" of penetration but good expansion. For the record, I put a piece of 3/16" plywood veneer about 3" inside the phone books to simulate a rib bone (sort of). Clearly, the flat nose 115 gr CB is adequate for average deer but the shot should be carefully placed. I would have tried a higher velocity boolit but my Contender is most accurate between 1400 and 1500 FPS.

[Canuck Bob]

I own one but have not taken it deer hunting yet. I plan to use it for doe hunting next year. I will load a 115 gr to 2200 per Paco.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3220wcf.htm

I figure an ambush standing or walking shot, 50 yards max, careful placement.

[Canuck Bob]

I own one but have not taken it deer hunting yet. I plan to use it for doe hunting next year. I will load a 115 gr to 2000 plus per Paco.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/3220wcf.htm

I figure an ambush standing or walking shot, 50 yards max, careful placement. I'm a disciplined hunter and would not push things just to harvest a deer.

[rintinglen]

I can't support this idea, the 32-20 is a fun cartridge--I've two of them. But they are awfully puny, even compared to the 30-30. Yeah, deer have been killed with it, but the 22LR has killed deer, too--Is that enough gun? I'm not saying you have to use a cannon, but the 32-20 requires way to much precision for successful use. I do not use mine for that purpose, and I don't think it quite ethical. It is much of a muchness with the 30 Carbine, and just not potent enough.

[gundownunder]

The 32-20 starts at well under the 1000 ft/lb energy that a lot of people tout as being required for hunting medium game but I would think that a SP or HP bullet under the ear or in the brain would result in a very dead deer. Would I go out deer hunting with one? NO, would I go out and kill a deer with one? YES.

[Bret4207]

I can't support this idea, the 32-20 is a fun cartridge--I've two of them. But they are awfully puny, even compared to the 30-30. Yeah, deer have been killed with it, but the 22LR has killed deer, too--Is that enough gun? I'm not saying you have to use a cannon, but the 32-20 requires way to much precision for successful use. I do not use mine for that purpose, and I don't think it quite ethical. It is much of a muchness with the 30 Carbine, and just not potent enough.

And yet the 45 cal RB and even smaller bores were considered adequate for deer, as were the 38/40 and 44/40, the SKS round is considered good these days. So what is ethical? At 20 yards in good light I know I can put a 311316 in a bucks ear. OTH, some people have no problem shooting at deer at 3, 4, 5 or even 600 yards or more in a wind with varying light conditions and mirage. Many of those same people will not leave their recliner in the tree stand to go see if they cut hair unless they see the deer drop right there. So the question of ethics comes with it's own questions!

It's light, I agree. But ethics in this is like asking why a blonde is hotter than a redhead.

[1Shirt]

Lots of IF's in this thread. I would use a 32-20 on deer IF, it was the only thing I had. IF it was legal (would be in some states)! IF the range was 50 yards or under. IF I had a big flat meplat blt cast about 14-15 bh, driven in the 2000 +/- bracket. IF I could be sure of a standing profile head shot, etc.etc.etc.

I like Brets statement regarding the ethics and long range deer shooting. And in my opinion, and from limited experiance, think red heads ARE hotter than blonds.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Junior1942]

A couple years back I "wet phonebook" tested my 32-20 Contender at 40 yards. At 1500 fps, the Lee 115 gr flat nosed GC boolit got 17" of penetration and perfect expansion. At the same velocity but different load the Speer 30 cal 120 gr hollowpoint jacketed got 11" of penetration but good expansion. For the record, I put a piece of 3/16" plywood veneer about 3" inside the phone books to simulate a rib bone (sort of). Clearly, the flat nose 115 gr CB is adequate for average deer but the shot should be carefully placed. I would have tried a higher velocity boolit but my Contender is most accurate between 1400 and 1500 FPS.'Nuf said! Put your 32-20 bullet in the ribs on one side and it will go out the ribs on the other side. Result = dead deer, either right there or just a few yards away.

[jlchucker]

I've never owned a 32-20 but back in his late grade-school days my youngest brother used to hunt with a 25-20, and had a stretch back then when he got 4 deer in 4 years, using only 6 rounds out of a beat-up old box of factory Winchester 86 grain j-word ammo. I know where he got those deer, and the distance from where he used to sit is probably around 75 yards. That spot has been polluted by a couple of houses built by cityfolk greenies now. In view of all of this, I don't see why a 32-20 wouldn't work if you sat down in a good spot in the woods, and placed your shot carefully.

[bowfin]

I would use a 32-20 on deer IF, it was the only thing I had.

My sentiments exactly.

Whenever the discussion of marginal deer cartridges comes up, we have anecdotal evidence that "this or that cartridge is fine if you do your job, because I know an old cuss who shot deer with it just fine." That begs the question, are the risks of using a marginal cartridge worth the rewards?

I find it puzzling that people who castigate others for taking long shots as risky don't use the same thought process when it comes to marginal calibers for big game. If you were using a .30-06 and seen a deer, would you intentionally back up 200 yards to make a longer shot? Then why make cleanly killing a deer more chancey than it needs to be?

If all you have is a .32-20 and it is legal where you hunt, then by all means, use it. If you have a .30-30 or a .270, what's going on in your thought process?

[Whit Spurzon]

I've pondered using the 32-20 for deer. I know a number of old-timers that have successfully harvested many deer with that caliber. I also know for a fact that shooting a deer with a 30-06 or 7mm Mag or a 30-30 doesn't mean DRT even with a solid hit. Also in my experience "energy" has little relation to how a bullet performs on game - though it is interesting for on paper comparisons and used in some states to determine the legality of a caliber.

A mentor of mine told me the two most important characteristics of a hunting bullet/arrow are its ability to be delivered accurately and that it penetrate deeply - completely if possible. Since exsanguination is the goal of my shots on Deer I'm aiming for the biggest and most stable part of em and counting on the bullet/arrow to create a wound channel to accomplish that as quickly as possible. So far his advice has proven to produce excellent results in my experience.

[Bret4207]

My sentiments exactly.

Whenever the discussion of marginal deer cartridges comes up, we have anecdotal evidence that "this or that cartridge is fine if you do your job, because I know an old cuss who shot deer with it just fine." That begs the question, are the risks of using a marginal cartridge worth the rewards?

I find it puzzling that people who castigate others for taking long shots as risky don't use the same thought process when it comes to marginal calibers for big game. If you were using a .30-06 and seen a deer, would you intentionally back up 200 yards to make a longer shot? Then why make cleanly killing a deer more chancey than it needs to be?

If all you have is a .32-20 and it is legal where you hunt, then by all means, use it. If you have a .30-30 or a .270, what's going on in your thought process?

Doesn't it all come down to personal ability and discipline? I won't shoot at running deer for instance or at more than 200 yards no matter what rifle I have. My personal ability level tells me that's the way I should do things. If I'm out looking for coyotes with a 32-20 or 25-20 and come up on a deer at 50 feet, as I have many times, I have a whole lot more faith in me sticking a boolit in the killing spot than I would of me doing the same with a 397 Tactical Extreme Magnum at 400 yards in a variable crosswind and some fog.

Blonds, brunettes and redheads.

[19112TAP]

I was doing my farm chores yesterday morning and saw a nice doe filling up on some grass behind the barn and since it's deer season here I slipped to my truck and picked up the Marlin 32-20 loaded with a 311008 Lyman over some AA#7 and got a broadside shot and 50 yds+, see jumped and trotted a few yards then stopped while I put in another round and she went down. While taking care of her both rounds were complete pass through with about a 1 in wound trauma first was a double lung hit and the second round took her through the spine completely destroying two vertebra. She lasted about 10 seconds and she was done for. I have some 31133 HP's I would like to try next or possible my Marlin 32 H&R with RCBS 98 SWC

[Canuck Bob]

A 115 gr bullet launched at 2200 fps retains 1000 ft/lbs to 50 yards. This is the accepted figure for ethical deer cartridges. That and the fact that the rifle has killed deer succesfuly for a hundred years is how I came to my decision. Like a bow hunter I relish the challenge to get very close and call my shots. I also use a flintlock for the same reason. It doesn't make a full 1000 ft/lbs to 100 yards but I would use that patched 54 cal ball on a moose to 75 yards. I am an ethical sportsman because I make informed decisions based on facts and a clear knowledge of my abilities.

The most unethical hunters I've witnessed are long range hunters. Truck hunters who roar to a stop and empty their rifles at hundreds of yards at paniced deer racing for cover. Nothing drops they get in their trucks and drive off. My family own a number of ranches in central and eastern Alberta and witness this activity daily in hunting season. Cut fences, no permission, shoot from and across a road, dead livestock, and my personal favorite using their scope to check out a target. I was once scoped three times in one day by clowns too lazy to use binoculars.

To my miind anyone who drops the hammer on a big game animal past 300 yards is unethical. That is how ethics are but my ethical limit is 200 yards regardless of rifle. If a guy is an accomplished rifleman well equipped and capable of delivering a good bullet into a 6 inch circle to 450 yards every time under field conditions is he unethical, that is his call not mine. I only know a handful of men capable of that performance yet every year hordes of moa benchrest champions try shots like these. Last year one of them shot a woman in her kitchen here! It wasn't a levergunner sneaking around the edge of the hay field.

[Suo Gan]

A little more thread drift, my friends and I once found 3 dead deer on the side of a hill that ran parallel to a dirt road, a somewhat deep gorge and small stream between the two. The hill was 150 yards from the road. What I think happened was folks were taking pot shots at deer from the road, thought they missed, did not want to take the time to go through the creek and up the hill to really make sure, and went on to greener pastures.

The 32-20 is a great little caliber. I think it is one of the very best for subsistence type living. You can load for it in divers fashion without wasting or without breaking the bank. Shooting deer in the head is dicey though IME. I have shot deer in the head before. I have done it with these small calibers. I have had mixed results. I personally do not attempt it any more. The most sure head shot on deer is a frontal and you aim above the eyes and a little off center so the bullet does not have to plow through the bone weld that runs right between the eyes. Obviously this shot is hard to get aligned just right. The ear shot may or may not kill a deer outright, and I have seen deer that have been shot in the ear survive for years after. Usually they get a deformed floppy ear and they spend the rest of their life shaking their heads every few seconds. I think one of the deer had a bullet wedged between his jaws or something, I sympathized with him as I know the agony of a something between my teeth. (please realize that I was raised on an indian res and this kind of thing was done as a matter of routine all the time. I have lived and learned and NO LONGER DO THIS)

I started with the 25-20, went to the 32-20, and now I feel that the 357 is probably a better bet yet for an 'all around' caliber for deer and below.

32-20 in the heart is best, just plan to get another shot or two into the deer as quickly as possible after your first WELL aimed shot.

I give this advice for subsistence purposes only.

[btroj]

I have thout long and hard about my Marlin 32-20 and deer season.
So far I havent found a load that I trust. I have great loads in e 1000 fps range with a 120 gr plain base. I just think that is enough for deer.
I need to find an accurate enough for my taste load in the 1500 fps plus range.
I just haven't spent the time on developing such a load yet.
I certainly will want to stay well under 50 yards and have a broadside shot.

[excess650]

As much as I like the 32-20 as a small game and plinking cartridge, I can't recommend it as a deer cartridge. I've been enamored with this little bugger since I first shot a 32wcf 1873 Winchester as a teenager. Turkey, yes, deer no.

I'm not saying that it can't or won't kill a whitetail, but I think a wild animal deserves to be dispatched in a quick, humane manner. The 32-20 doesn't leave any room for error.

[dk17hmr]

This is a very interesting thread, different points of view from different types of hunters, very interesting.

I was asked by a good friend in Michigan if the 6.8 SPC would be enough for elk, I told him yes but I wouldnt take one elk hunting. If I was out to collect meat and my 6.8 was with me on one of my many trips to the mountains I would probably use it, but if I drew a trophy bull area my 338 win mag or one of my 30-06's would be going with me. The 32-20 might not be a "big game" round but if you can shoot it well and are after meat I think you will fill your freezer.

[Larry Gibson]

The 32-20 loaded with cast bullets of 100 - 118 gr in the 1800 - 2000 fps range is very similar, if not identical, to the .30 Carbine with the same bullets. I recommend a soft cast GC'd bullet like the FP Lee or the 311316. The 311316 is the 311008 with a GC and was made for the HV 32-20 loads of which you're interested.

I concur with Bret regard the "hardcast" hoopla........they do work but a softer cast bullet that expands works (read that kills) better. The Lyman 311316 cast of WWs + 2% tin does very well on deer out to 150 yards with correctly placed bullets.

Larry Gibson

[Marine Sgt 2111]

I just have to weigh in on this thread. Every year, thousands of deer are shot and killed with the humble .22 LR. I don't condone poaching but am just stating a fact. Self discipline, practice, confidence in the weapons ability and ones shooting ability are more important here than muzzle energy. Certainly the .32-20 isn't a 200, 300 or 400 yard cartridge but think of what it is and how it's packaged. A Marlin CL is a nice, light short rifle, fast handling and shoots a cartridge that has very little recoil and can put a lead or jacketed boolit exactly where you want it to go. I have put three shots, over 10grs of 2400, 115gr FPGC lead RCBS boolit into 1.75" at 150 yards. Do I consider the .32-20 a 150 yard gun? No, a 100 yard cartridge at best. Better yet 50 to 75 yards where I can pin point a shot into the forehead, ear, spine or heart, and I do mean pinpoint. 5.5 grs of Unique is a great load with the RCBS SWC and I can put 5 of them on a nickel not even trying half hard.

I cannot say it enough...practice, practice, practice makes for venison steaks and placing your shot with confidence is what counts not muzzle energy.

[bowfin]

A 115 gr bullet launched at 2200 fps retains 1000 ft/lbs to 50 yards. This is the accepted figure for ethical deer cartridges.

Here in Nebraska, a legal rifle caliber must have 900 ft. lbs. of remaining energy at 100 yards. If you have a .32-20 load that will deliver that, then it doesn't matter what anyone says.


Doesn't it all come down to personal ability and discipline?

Not really. You can have all the personal ability and discipline in the world and and the cartridge can still be found wanting. Think how much personal ability and discipline it would take to make a Crosman air rifle your go to deer slayer.

Elmer Keith was a pretty fair shot, and their were cartridges and bullet designs he wouldn't use for deer. He didn't think his skill and experience would bridge the gap for those cartridges.

As I said, if a .32-20 is all you have and you want to go deer hunting, then by all means go.

But as I have asked (and no answer yet), why would one use a .32-20 IF he has other choices available?

[Bret4207]

Kinda already explained that, a couple of us did, about walking up on deer at distances measured in feet, rather than yards. It's not a "deer rifle", no. But for the close range hunter, rather than the Hail Mary shooter, it will work.

As for why use it at all- why do some guys use a #18 nymph on a 7x tippet and a 4 wt fly rod when worms and 6 lb Stren from a Zebco Walmart special work just as good?

[flounderman]

one 00 buck in the ribs at 75 or more yards will kill a deer. former father in law in west virginia used a 22. said shoot them in the ribs. the record that stood for years from wisconsin was killed with a 32-20. chest cavity or neck and you will have a dead deer and you won't spoil a lot of meat. don't need any special loads, just something in the upper range the caliber is capable of.

[405]

As much as I like the 32-20 as a small game and plinking cartridge, I can't recommend it as a deer cartridge. I've been enamored with this little bugger since I first shot a 32wcf 1873 Winchester as a teenager. Turkey, yes, deer no.

I'm not saying that it can't or won't kill a whitetail, but I think a wild animal deserves to be dispatched in a quick, humane manner. The 32-20 doesn't leave any room for error.

Agree 100%.

Why in the world use a marginal caliber when so many others are available.
Almost like a contest to see what the least suitable tool one can get by with- only at the end of this road may be a bunch of crippling loss- outa sight, outa mind I guess. Borders on unethical.

[btroj]

Why?
Because some enjoy pushing the envelope? To see if it can be done? Just because?
I am not going to question ones decision to use a 32-20 for deer anymore than I will someone's decision to "shoot" rather than "hunt" deer by killing at extreme ranges.

As for the "energy level" required by any state for deer- this is purely an arbitrary number settled pon by mere humans. Yes, NE requires 900 foot pounds at 100 yards but MO only requires an expanding type bullet in a centerfire cartridge. Neither state is either right or wrong- they just decided what they wanted the law to be. I seriously doubt any real "science" or "testing" was involved.

My 32-20 may go hunting some day. I have places where a 25 yard shot is long so shot placement isn't an issue.

To each there own- use what you want, just keep hunting and taking new people out to do the same!

[bowfin]

To each there own- use what you want, just keep hunting and taking new people out to do the same!

I'll give the above as the last word as far as I am concerned.

[excess650]

one 00 buck in the ribs at 75 or more yards will kill a deer. former father in law in west virginia used a 22. said shoot them in the ribs. the record that stood for years from wisconsin was killed with a 32-20. chest cavity or neck and you will have a dead deer and you won't spoil a lot of meat. don't need any special loads, just something in the upper range the caliber is capable of.

I had read the story of "The Jordan Buck" many years ago. It was actually shot with a 25-20, but numerous times.....he fired until the magazine was empty....fumbled through his pockets and found one last shell....

The deer was tracked some distance through a river bottom and even crossed the river before being shot the last time. Apparently it wasn''t even quite dead then as it somehow got back into the river and floated away. This was anything but humane. I realize that it was 1914 and he was a farmer, so he used the rifle he had. To do the same whith better options available just isn't ethical.

Read the story yourself http://www.burnettcounty.com/DocumentView.aspx?DID=85

[Junior1942]

...... Ranges would be under 50 yds. Velocity with hard cast 3118 115 gr. should be about 1800 fps. Any opinions?Some of you guys need to read or reread the OP. Especially the "Ranges will be under 50 yards" part. There is NOTHING unethical about what the man intends to do. Are we now to establish nationwide panels which decide what gun and bullet and velocity is ok for deer hunting? BS, I say. To do so serves only to put one more straw of rules on the backs of hunters. The result can only equal less hunters. WE are our own worst enemies!

[19112TAP]

+1 Junior

[Lonegun1894]

This is something I am only posting because I know this bunch here is responsible enough NOT to attempt. A friend of mine (now deceased) was out of work for a while when I was in High School, and used a .20 Benjamin Sheridan to feed his family with small game. Remember this was subsistence hunting, not sport hunting. He always insisted that I not bring firearms due to the area he was doing this in--yes, he was poaching, but like i said, poach or starve were his choices--due to the muzzle report. At the same time, he would on occasion invite me out to watch and learn how to actually get close and hunt, instead of just shoot. So we were out one day and he signals me to freeze which i did, but didnt see the doe til after freezing. The doe was about 50yds away, and he snuck up until he was about 20yds from the animal. He fired and hit the doe slightly behind the ear, and she dropped in her tracks. I never asked if he had done this before, or how often, but his wife wasn't very surprized so I'm sure it wasn't the first time he had done this.

Like others have said above, I dont condone poaching, but when the choice is life or death, i wont hold it against anyone who uses what they have available. Also, after seeing a doe get taken with a pelletgun, I have no doubt that the OPs .32-20 is very capable and very humane at reasonable ranges and with good placement as he has said he is using. I say stay within your comfortable ranges, put the boolit where it belongs, and enjoy the venison. I also dont think it has to be hardcast either. Just hard enough to maintain accuracy and not strip on the rifling. Being a small bullet, a little expansion may be beneficial and shouldnt be detrimental to get sufficient penetration since not much is needed if a broadside shot is used.

[10 ga]

Had a marlin 94 in 32-20 and it was my favorite turkey rifle. For deer it's easy, shoot them in the ribs just behind the shoulder and they die quick. Shot a few deer with it but only as they were suicidal and it was early fall and they were interfering with my turkey hunting. LOL! Traded it on a Savage MLII and no regrets for that. 10 ga

[nanuk]

Agree 100%.

Why in the world use a marginal caliber when so many others are available.
Almost like a contest to see what the least suitable tool one can get by with- only at the end of this road may be a bunch of crippling loss- outa sight, outa mind I guess. Borders on unethical.

We could use that same logic on bowhunting, Crossbows, handguns, etc...

where do you draw the line? nothing less than 250gr at 2400fps?

[nanuk]

..... But ethics in this is like asking why a blonde is hotter than a redhead.

Bret.... Your premise is moot: cause everyone knows that a fiery RedHead is far and away Mo Betta fun!

[1Shirt]

A tip of the ole Derby to Junior! More than a little common sense in him!!!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Olevern]

I once knew a budding archery hunter who wounded and failed to recover 11 (eleven) deer from one woodlot in one season. A combination of poor skills, poor hits, over-reaching his effective range (along with little regard for the game animal)

Was this ethical?

I once harvested a 90 lb. doe with the 32-20 at 55 yards from a ground blind using a 1 1/2 X 5X Leupold (mounted on the Marlin model 94cl carbine) and using a "trigger stick" rest. No problem at all putting that slug into the deers ear at that distance with a stable rest. Bang/flop.

Within my known effective range I would not hesitate to repeat the feat.

[405]

We could use that same logic on bowhunting, Crossbows, handguns, etc...

where do you draw the line? nothing less than 250gr at 2400fps?

You made the comparison, not me. Using that logic then why not a 22 mag or 22lr Stinger or 17 HMR?

But then again every one I ever talk to or read posts by is the greatest shot on the planet. Funny that many of those same folks get their panties in a knot when shooting at a paper target and have much wringing of hands when they can't get Ole Betsy to shoot MOA. Yet after shooting marginal groups like 4-5 inches at a 100 yds seem to always end the statement with the obligatory, "she ain't shootin as good as she oughta, but she be good nuff fer deer".

The poorest judgement for shot placement on deer is the head shot but that is what these very marginal cartridges are relegated to.

[izzyjoe]

i heard a phrase that said somthing like " Don't use a gun that will take an animal when all conditions are right, use one that will get the job done when everything goes wrong!" under the right conditions the 32-20 will harvest game just as good as any other caliber.

[Lonegun1894]

Not to stir the pot the wrong way here, but while I agree that many people take shots they shouldnt, many of us also pass up shots we know we can make because it just doesnt feel right for whatever reason. In my case, and cases of the people I hunt with, we have all passed up shots we knew we could make just because of a gut feeling, or to watch the deer walk away in the hopes that another would come by in a while and we just didnt want our day in the woods to end just yet. I bow hunt, and handgun hunt, and rifle, and muzzleloader hunt. Yes, I will use just about any excuse to get in the woods and hunt with any weapon given the opportunity, but my longest shot in the last 3-4 years has been 45 yds. That isnt because I haven't seen game further out, or because I cant hit further out, but becasue I enjoy the challenge of getting close. If the rest of you didnt, you would be using higher velocity calibers in rifles outfitted with huge glass and shooting at what many above have called unreasonable ranges, not lever-actions firing slow (by modern standards) boolits out of rifles usually wearing iron sights or low power scopes. That is what prevents me from understanding why the .32-20 seems to be so controversial here. We all seem to agree that deer are easy to kill as long as placement is good, but many seem to believe that a .311 bullet weighing 115grs wont do the job humanely while no one seems to argue that a .311 150 gr (.30-30 for example) is about perfect when loaded to almost identical velocities. It's not so much the gun or the caliber used, its the man using it and his ability to place it where it belongs. I have seen small calibers do things I wouldn't have believed if I hadn't seen them, and big calibers fail miserably when not put where they count--as have most if not all of us if we spend enough time in the field. We have all heard about Bell using a 7x57 Mauser for elephants. Per a quick look in the load manuals, if a 173gr .284" bullet moving at 2300fps is enough for elephant, not saying a good choice for most, but enough in the right hands, then a 115gr .311" at 1500-2000fps should be enough for deer at close range with proper placement.

I stay with my initial statement of best of luck, shoot straight, and enjoy the venison.

[dmize]

Im a bowhunter also.
Put the shot behind the shoulder. Bullet thru the lungs and especially the heart=DEAD DEER.... PERIOD.
Several years ago I basically trew my tag away by killing a doe that had half the lower side of its head blown away,by someone taking one of those deadly headshots.
Also have seen deer hit with the coveted neck shot,drop then get up and run away,with not only a nasty wound to the neck but also carrying a bullet or 2 in the butt or guts from a suprised and unprepared hunter, deer is also about to break mach 1 in this situation and goes a long way with a very poor blood trail.
Also as a side note on the neck shot thingey. A 30-06 or even a 30-30 and the high velocity rounds in between have a trmendous amount of hydrostatic shock involved with the impact,something that the smaller calibers especially with cast booltits dont have so much of.
I also love the "shoot them in the neck and dont waste any meat" well if your are accurate enough to hit a deers neck just put it thru the chest,bigger target and dont waste ANY meat.

[Bret4207]

Im a bowhunter also.
Put the shot behind the shoulder. Bullet thru the lungs and especially the heart=DEAD DEER.... PERIOD.
Several years ago I basically trew my tag away by killing a doe that had half the lower side of its head blown away,by someone taking one of those deadly headshots.


Unless you are the guy that made the missed headshot then that deer could have just as well be hit wrong while running or by some clown misjudging the wind at 425 yards with his 300 Tactical Elite Exxtreeeeeeme Magnumb. I've killed hundreds of deer by putting a 9mm round from a Glock between the eye and ear at ranges under 40 yards or so. They fall down and that's it.

I realy don;t know what all the fuss is about. The OP wants to put a boolit placed with precision in the vitals. There's a far better chance he'll bring home the meat than Joe Sixpackski and his 397 Loudenboomer Mangum with the 4x16 scope shooting at 400 yards. But hey, Joe has enough gun right. He just can't hit krap with it.

[dmize]

Well Im sorry. I guess I should have just said head shots arent ALWAYS fatal.
I dont think I veered any farther off course than som e other posters.
Although it may have been like you throwing a super ball,as in once in a lifetime,I had a department issued Federal HydroShok from my 5906 ricochet off of a car hit deers forehead ie. right between the eyes.
Local game warden had never seen it happen before either but instructed me to shoot behind the ear goin foreward in future cases.

[Bret4207]

Sorry man, you lost me. You shot at a car and the bullet ricocheted off and hit a deer?

Wait...okay, a car struck deer that you shot. Got it. Yeah, weird stuff happens. I once put 13 of the 18 rounds of 357 Mag ammo we carried into a deers heart/lung area as he wouldn't let me get closer than 65-70 yards. Took that poor guy a looong time to die even though all 13 hit him right.

[dmize]

Yea guess that could have been clearer, OK a LOT clearer.
Car hit deer,I responded to accident,attempted to put the deer down,bullet rico****ted off of deers skull.

[bowfin]

A classic internet cliche:


Joe Sixpackski and his 397 Loudenboomer Mangum with the 4x16 scope shooting at 400 yards. But hey, Joe has enough gun right. He just can't hit krap with it.

Everybody on the 'net knows that only the bumbling buffoons would use a belted magnum, and the real experts use the tiniest of calibers and cartridges.

[Larry Gibson]

Not sure what the fuss is about either. The OP knows his limitations which are his own self imposed "ethics". The 32-20 with appropriate cast bullet loads will very effectively kill any deer within those limitations. More power to him.....go for it.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

A classic internet cliche:



Everybody on the 'net knows that only the bumbling buffoons would use a belted magnum, and the real experts use the tiniest of calibers and cartridges.

Actually I kind of agree with Bret on this. Guys seem to think a big, new magnum cartridge with a huge scope is what is needed to slay the mighty whitetail.
Shooting ability be damned, itis all about having the biggest, baddest gun on the block.

Give me a stood shot who has a gun he knows, a guy who knows his limitations, and a guy who knows his quarry anyday. That guy is going to get his deer. He may not be "kool" but he is effective.

My 32-20 may just get a chance next year. This discussion is peaking my interest even more.

And yes, I do like the challenge of testing the envelope in regards to low powered cartridges. Makes me work for my deer.

[kelbro]

Would this be the place to ask if killing 20 or so deer (no head shots, no neck shots) with my 25-20 was unethical? I swear that I wasn't shooting at 300yds with it. ;)

[357maximum]

I have read alot of similat threads all over the net...........and everytime I end up at the same thought:

Isn't it amazing how quickly good deer rounds became inadequate the second they invented the 30/06?

[9.3X62AL]

The 32-20 WCF vs. deer discussions always draw a crowd. There are worse subjects to chew upon, for sure. I haven't, and likely won't take the caliber into the deer woods. I have other calibers that are more flexible afield in platforms that offer more capability. I sure as hell won't critique someone else's choice of the 32-20 for venison-making, though. None of my business, really.

I dearly love the 32-20 in both rifles and revolvers for small game and varmints. That Paco Kelly article indexed above is SUPERB.

[NickSS]

I have not used a 32-20 to kill deer with but I have used an M1 Carbine to kill three deer years ago when I lived in a state that allowed it to be used (NH). Two were one shot kills and the third was a running deer that I shot three times before it fell over. Ranges were under 50 yards and in ever case I was shooting Hornady HJ 100 gr with a max charge of 2400. At close range it will do the job but personally I will not use one just like I will not use any standard pistol caliber rifle or handgun to deliberately go hunting big game with. All of them have to many ifs to suit me. In the state were I live the minimum caliber is 243 with a bullet weighing at least 80 gr with a retained energy of 900 ft-pds at 100 yards. Personally the minimum has ifs as well as I have found that even a 243 win is a 90% deer rifle. But then that's my opinion that I reached over many years of shooting and hunting.

[Mk42gunner]

Warning, slight thread drift ahead.

One thing that has always amazed me, ever since I started reading gun magazines in the mid 70's was the fact that you had to have a .308/ .30-06 at the minimum and a big magnum was better, to kill deer. But then in the very next sentence they would recommend a .243 Winchester, .250 Savage, .257 Roberts or sometimes the 7x57mm for "women and small framed youngsters", even for elk.

Are deer somehow easier to kill for the above mentioned "women and small framed youngsters"? I don't think so.

Another amzing ballistic oddity is that the .30-30 is only good for maybe 100 yards out of a rifle or carbine, but put it in a TC Contender and it is good to somewhere around 327 yards or so.

Back on subject. I would have absolutely no qualms about using a .32-20 on deer under fifty yards.

Robert

[Bret4207]

Lotta truth in the recent posts. I suppose my pet peeve is the gurus who say the 32-20, 38/40, 32/40, 351 Wins SL, 25/35 are all too light for deer and then turn around and say the 7.62 x39 or 357 Mag is fine at limited ranges. Some things don't add up to me.

In the end if a guy wants to use a 375 H&H, or a 284 Sooper Dooper Magnumb or a 32/20 that's all great. The caveat is that they know their limitations and work within them. I think the same thing applies to bowhunters and black powder hunters, shotgunners too.

[btroj]

It all comes down to the abilities of the hunter. You need to be patient and wait for the right shot.
To me the challenge of getting close and having the right shot is as important as any other part of the hunt.

If it was easy it wouldn't be very exciting or satisfying to do.

[9.3X62AL]

To plagiarize a prior statement of Bret's--we spend way too much time debating the arrow, and far too little discussing the Indian. The most-blooded rifle in my safe as far as deer are concerned is my great-grandfather's '73 Winchester in 44-40 WCF. Its deer take numbers in the hundreds, along with at least two black bears that my grandmother saw being whacked on the ranch proper. In its blackpowder form--the only safe load rating for the '73--it is no wonder cartridge. But the caliber was VERY popular for a very long time for some reason.

Same goes for the 32-20. Something occurred after WWII to cause many of the hyphenated Winchester calibers to fade out, and that is a shame. All of them are a joy afield or on the range.

[btroj]

Ep, it is all about the Indian. Sadly, we live in an era where a poor Indian thinks a big, powerful arrow will make him a better Indian.
Whatever you use for hunting you have an obligation to the game to be certain you can do your part. Much better a 32-20 in the vitals than a huge boomer in the guts or non-vital areas.

[Loudenboomer]

I've not shot any deer with the 32-20. I have with the old .35 win sl about the same power class. Kills deer as dead as they will get . As stated many times you just need to do your part. I've shot many with the .357 magnum and the 7.62 X 39. They are a step up in power but I'd still consider on the min side. 35 rem to 30-06 Is where I like to be. Especially when less than perfect conditions present them selves. But back on track. Warm up your load and keep it close, your 32-20 will work just fine.

[Bret4207]

The 35 Win SL???? Wow! I didn't even dare mention stuff like that and the 32 Win SL for fear I'd be accused of making up a round! GOOD FOR YOU! The 32 Win SL was about like the 32-20 and the 35 about like a hot 38 Special or low powered 357. (And don't forget the 351 and 401 Win SL too!) I won't even talk about the guys I've known who filled the freezer with their 410 slug guns or 32 RF's. Did you ever hear of the 22-10-45? Sort of a forerunner to the Hornet. Yeah, well, you stick one of those boolits (they were cast) in a bears lungs and he falls down pretty quick. The common denominator in all cases was there being nothing else to use and getting CLOSE. Biggest bear I ever saw killed was with a 38 Special 158RN lead from a 4" Smith IIRC, might have been a Colt if that makes a diff to anyone. Shot at about 15 feet- once.

Of course for every successful kills with those underpowered rounds there are stories of unsuccessful events too. But that happens with "high powered, high intensity" rounds like the 30-30, 32 Special, 35 Rem . It happens with all the others too no matter how modern or powerful or expensive. Part of it is Mr, Murphy and part of it is thinking the gun will make up for lack of precision or judgment. That's that arrow thing again.

Bah, like I said, use what you want as long as YOU KNOW you can do the job with it. All rest is electronic blathering.

[longhorn]

Judging by the gunshop conversations I hear, all the buck in Texas are wearing Kevlar vests and shrug off anything less powerful than a "7 mag." OTOH, does all get shot with .223's and drop immediately. Wish I had bought one of the Marlin .32-20's when they were new for my backyard deer gun-I've seen 'em work quite handily when used by real hunters.

[Junior1942]

Judging by the gunshop conversations I hear, all the buck in Texas are wearing Kevlar vests and shrug off anything less powerful than a "7 mag." OTOH, does all get shot with .223's and drop immediately. Wish I had bought one of the Marlin .32-20's when they were new for my backyard deer gun-I've seen 'em work quite handily when used by real hunters.Same here in north Louisiana, longhorn. The armchair/gunshop experts all say you got to use at least a 7 mag or a 300 mag. While they're telling you a 308 Win ain't enough rifle and a 30-30 Win ain't NEAR enough rifle, they'll give you a lecture on proper heaters for box stands.

[quilbilly]

I do so enjoy these debates. When the hunt regulations changed 20+ years ago in my state that caused me to switch to muzzleloader deer hunting, I acquired a whole new view of conventional wisdom on "enough gun". If you apply "conventional wisdom" to the 45 patched round ball which I prefer, all those deer should still be alive and my freezer shouldn't be full.
When I did that "wet phone book" test with the 32-20, it seemed to prove that "conventional wisdom" that you need 2000 fps to kill a deer with a 32-20 is not necessarily true. What the test did do was provide a lot of flexibility with loading. if your rifle shoots the 32-20 better at 1500 fps than at 2000 fps, then use the more accurate load and it is still enough to do the job.

[357maximum]

Warning, slight thread drift ahead.

One thing that has always amazed me, ever since I started reading gun magazines in the mid 70's was the fact that you had to have a .308/ .30-06 at the minimum and a big magnum was better, to kill deer. But then in the very next sentence they would recommend a .243 Winchester, .250 Savage, .257 Roberts or sometimes the 7x57mm for "women and small framed youngsters", even for elk.

Are deer somehow easier to kill for the above mentioned "women and small framed youngsters"? I don't think so.

Another amzing ballistic oddity is that the .30-30 is only good for maybe 100 yards out of a rifle or carbine, but put it in a TC Contender and it is good to somewhere around 327 yards or so.

Back on subject. I would have absolutely no qualms about using a .32-20 on deer under fifty yards.

Robert

Deer are in fact easier to kill by those women and children as they have not yet been indoctinated into the the kevlar coated deer myths spun by the gunrags to sell sooperdooperearsplittenloudenboomers for their advertisers.

The 30/30 in a contender is more likely to be carried by someone that shoots alot and knows his tools. Compare that to the guy that grabs grampas ye ol winny 94 out of the closest once a year and never checks the p.o.i. So if I twist my thoughts like a liberal twists the truth.....I can almost see some logic in there. Almost.


I killed several deer with a somewhat crude homemade rolling block 32-40 loaded with Blackpowder as a youngin as that is all I had to use. It did a darn fine job when I did mine. Alot of deer do not know they are boolit proof......shhhh let's keep that to ourselves eh?

[Mk42gunner]

Alot of deer do not know they are boolit proof......shhhh let's keep that to ourselves eh?

Lord help us if they ever start to read the hunting magazines....

Robert

[Nrut]

For hunting deer what is advantage does the 32-20 hold over the 30-30 if you own both?

[Bret4207]

None. I don't think that's the point at all. You may as well ask what advantage a Win or Marlin 30-30 have over a later version 307 or 338 Marlin or a Sav 99 300 or 308 or anything else in the weight class.

[btroj]

No advantage at all. Then again, why do I hunt with cast bullets, what advantage do they have over jacketed if I own both?

This type of argument could go on forever. Some times it isn't about advantages, it is aout trying something different. Proving something to yourself.

[357maximum]

No advantage at all. Then again, why do I hunt with cast bullets, what advantage do they have over jacketed if I own both?

.

Some j-words will not expand reliably, some will expand too violently. With cast hunting boolits that are made properly you get partition like performance at a very reasonable prices. I have had quite a few j-words that did not do what I thought they should and were deemed failures even though they did kill the animal. I have had exactly two castboolits do something other than I thought they should. The fault with both of those cases was my own and the deer still died without unneccesary issues. Now that I have the "choose your alloy/ boolit design for application" thing figured out I am happy as a lark. Why oh why would I pay a buck for a copper clad bullet when I can make my own boolits that I trust alot more from nothing more than a mix of 1/2 ww and 1/2 pure? When a cast boolit fails somehow you know which ammo factory to blame and you can fix it.............therein lies the advantage.

[btroj]

I agree entirely 357 Max, I was just pointing out that we have so many viable options that to say we need to have an "advantage" to make our choice is silly.
Do we need the number of guns many of us own? How many of us own multiple guns for one cartridge?
It isn't about advantages, it is about fun. We enjoy this stuff, at least I do. I get bored shooting the same gun and load every year for deer season.

[Good Cheer]

Mom dropped a nice six pointer with a Savage bolt action 32-20. That must have been about 1959.

[Ben]

Looks like I'm now # 78

This has to be some kind of record for the 32-20 as a deer rifle.
I'm amazed at all the comments.

[Nrut]

Looks like I'm now # 78

This has to be some kind of record for the 32-20 as a deer rifle.
I'm amazed at all the comments.
I am not..
You should see some of the ".223 for deer" threads on Accurate Reloading..
Fur sure does fly over there then ..
[smilie=l:

[Canuck Bob]

Looks like I'm now # 78

This has to be some kind of record for the 32-20 as a deer rifle.
I'm amazed at all the comments.

Figured I might as well make it #80.

One thing I realized using Paco's load info for a STRONG 92 is that the 115 gr bullet will stay above 1000 ft/lbs to 50 yards if started above 2100 fps. This is a generally accepted value for deer as a humane minimum.

I realize some here don't like the headshot but I can still hit a pop can to 50 paces every time. Using bowhunter ambush techniques and proper training it seems both humane and sporting.

[jlchucker]

After reading all of this I wish that Rossi would come out with a M92 in 32-20! I'd right away have an urge to buy one for deer hunting. One that I could use with boolits cast from my Lyman 311316 mold. That would be just the ticket for casual hunting down by grandpa's old apple orchard on an early-in-the-season fall day.

[Lonegun1894]

After reading all of this I wish that Rossi would come out with a M92 in 32-20! I'd right away have an urge to buy one for deer hunting. One that I could use with boolits cast from my Lyman 311316 mold. That would be just the ticket for casual hunting down by grandpa's old apple orchard on an early-in-the-season fall day.

That's what I've been thinking too. Actually spoke to a couple gunsmiths here locally about the feasibility of converting a .357 Rossi to .32-20 since Track of the Wolf has the right barrels to do the job. Swapping an extractor out would be the other main thing what would need to be done, but that seems easy enough, and the .357 extractor might actually work as it is. I have the idea, but not the tools or the money to get it done. Another option would be .32 H&R Magnum. I keep thinking those should both be very close performance wise if fired from a rifle. Sorry for the thread hijack, and I hope it doesnt throw the discussion off too much.

[Jack Stanley]

The two men that influenced me to buy a 32-20 didn't even know they had done so but I'm so glad they did . Ragnar Benson and Paco Kelly both seemed right proud of their dash twenty rifles and spoke of results . Benson favored a 25-20 and you know about Paco and his .32 . I'm sure both of them could "injun" up on just about anything if they needed to to make the shot .

I bought the 32-20 just because I thought casting bullets for it would be easier than the twenty-five caliber slugs . The rifle I bought has been shot a great deal and so far at nothing bigger than varmints . As accurate as the rifle is I would not pass up a shot at the deer in my backyard as long as they were at the same range I'd engage a varmint . I've learned that when I see a critter I intend to put down to start picking the spot and angle I want the bullet to go . Doing this one thing seemed to clean all the jitters right out of me .

For years folks used a 32-40 or a patched round ball ..... I suppose if one could limit the deers room to run away , it could be run untill tired and clubbed . I've known guys that have used a M1 carbine because that's all they had and another man used a thirty-eight revlover down in the swamp .

I just know that the 32-20 isn't the only rifle you guys have , but I'm pretty sure some of you could kill a deer with a spear if that's all ya had [smilie=l:

Jack

[bowfin]

Another amzing ballistic oddity is that the .30-30 is only good for maybe 100 yards out of a rifle or carbine, but put it in a TC Contender and it is good to somewhere around 327 yards or so.

I don't know about 327 yards, but being able to use bullets that are spitzers at a higher pressure would certainly move the boundaries.

You do bring up a good point about cartridges getting an easier pass because they are being shot by women and/or children. The reigning argument is that the recoil of a .308 Winchester will cause them to flinch, and it is better to hit with a .223 than miss with a .308 Winchester.

My argument has always been that if one hasn't shot high powered rifles enough to master the recoil(?) of a .308, then one certainly doesn't have the expertise to turn a smaller cartridge into a reliable deer killer.

[jodum]

I killed my first deer with my grandfathers 92 Win 32-20. I now have both it and my great grand fathers 92 32-20. I picked up an excellent S&W 1920 hand ejector in 32-20 a couple of years back. I plan to keep hunting with all of them.