Revolvers: Empty chamber syndrome

[Jim]

Recently, I was talking with a retired gentleman about what handguns we keep at the ready in the home. He volunteered to show me his Judge. When he handed it to me, he announced that it was loaded. I opened it and immediately noticed the next chamber to come under the hammer was empty.

I asked him if he was aware of this. He explained that he intentionally left the first chamber to cycle empty so that if anyone got the gun away from him, he would have time to get it back before they could fire the gun. This is only the second time I've seen this and heard the same explanation.

He asked me "You keep your gun full?" "Yes sir, I do. I don't let anybody get close enough to snatch it out of my hand."

I'm not a psychologist, I'm just a dumb ol' retired pipefitter. I have to wonder, though, is this decision based on a complete void of understanding in how to deal with an invader or is it based on the inability to kill, even in a completely justifiable self defense situation.

I really don't think there's anyone here on this forum that actually WANTS a chance to kill somebody, justified or not. I know I certainly don't. The very thing I DON'T want is a need to shoot at another human being for ANY reason.

That being said, I do all I can to secure my home against that need manifesting. I have installed motion activated lights, front and back. I make sure the doors are locked before we retire for the evening and I make sure all interior doors are open so the dogs have access to every room.

I do all I know to do to protect my wife and myself. However, if all my plans of defense fail and I am forced to use a firearm in self defense, I am NOT going to let an intruder/asaillant get close enough to take my handgun away from me, thus needing that microsecond of an empty chamber to atempt to regain it.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnVT/Guns/Ruger%20Alaskan/Oh3.jpg

[Wayne Smith]

I too question this decision. I would never keep the first chamber empty. I wonder if this is some corruption of the need to keep the chamber under the hammer empty on Colt and other single actions?

I once saw an older gentleman who was referred to me for possible homosidial and suicidial thoughts. He told me he had been to the emergency room at a local hospital and in their evaluation asked him if he had ever thought of suicide. He stated "I said yes". He was then asked if he had ever thought of homocide. He stated "I said yes". He was then told that he was homoical and suicidal and the police had been called. Fortunately the Sgt. that responded had been trained by him - he is a retired police officer. The Sgt asked him if he was willing to see a real psychologist and he agreed. Thus the referral.

I asked him to tell me about suicidal thoughts. He stated "I have rescued three suicides off the bridge and failed in two. Of course I have thought of suicide". I asked him about homocide. He stated "Every time I strapped on my gun I prayed that I would not have to use it".

I share his attitude and still carry.

[gray wolf]

Some folks have let there ability to think get corrupted,
or perhaps have never been able to think for themselves.
Critical thinking is not some thing everyone has been blessed with.
The ability to make the correct decision at the correct time can be skewed for many reasons.

[Curly James]

Once knew a guy who kept his S&W mdl 10 loaded that way. When I asked him why he said it was in case his wife got mad at him he would have time to get the gun away before she could pull the trigger again. Must have been some interesting arguments in that household.

[fishnbob]

Once knew a guy who kept his S&W mdl 10 loaded that way. When I asked him why he said it was in case his wife got mad at him he would have time to get the gun away before she could pull the trigger again. Must have been some interesting arguments in that household.

That's why I never encouraged my wife to learn how to shoot, terrible temper! I am not so afraid she would shoot me but I have seen situations where she probably would have used it on someone else before I could have intervened. BTW, mine are full to the brim, single action, double action revolvers and semi auto's. I don't want to run outta ammo if I need it.

[firefly1957]

Jim we think alike no one else should be getting a hold of my defense gun and it is kept loaded all the way. However in the past I have read of someone who wrote of what your elderly man said ? If any of you remember this do you remember who it was? My thought was it was a BAD IDEA and never thought once of doing it myself.

Starting to shoot in the early "70s" many older guns were recommended not to be carried with a round under the hammer (this included rifles shotguns and revolvers) and I will never forget something my grandfather said . He said " The worst sound in the world is the hammer falling on an empty chamber when your life depends on that gun going off".

[DLCTEX]

The Judge is double action, so he'd have to be really fast in getting the gun before the second trigger pull if it were me doing the trigger pulling. Double tap.You're out.

[Love Life]

I am with the majority here. Don't let somebody take your weapon in the first place.
However, me and a buddy just had a similar conversation about weapon retention last night. My buddy is very skilled with fighting with his hands, and he claimed he would be able to disarm an uneducated opponent relatively easily as long as he wasn't immediately shot. I believe him.

Then I brought up how there is a fighting style entirely for the use of a handgun. Keep it close in to the core, etc. He said "Well yes that is true, but I said uneducated opponent." The members of this forum are very well versed in their weapons of choice.

I would much rather have a full cylinder.

[TNFrank]

The only revolver that I'd keep a chamber empty on would be an older style single action (i.e. Colt SAA and the like) and that chamber would be under the lowered hammer. Other then that with a modern SA or DA revolver load em' to full capacity.
Of course on a similar note I DO keep the chamber on my PX4 empty but with a fully loaded mag when it's sitting at home. It only takes a split second to rack the slide to chamber a round if the gun is needed for use but when I carry outside of the home there's always one in the pipe.

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Gentlemen , some handgun disarms taught in the martial arts will get you shot.
Most you see in the movies will get you shot.
I speak as a martial artist of over 45 yrs. experience. :Fire::Fire:

[Love Life]

HI,
Gentlemen , some handgun disarms taught in the martial arts will get you shot.
Most you see in the movies will get you shot.
I speak as a martial artist of over 45 yrs. experience. :Fire::Fire:

+1. Many disarms are nice and flashy, but it boils down to get out of the line of fire. Nothing like grabbing a gun and pulling it directly into you!!

[mooman76]

Some I think, over think things. On the other hand if he tries to shoot some bad guy it also gives the bad guy half a second extra to get the gun away. I keep mine in my safe fully loaded. My hope is if he forces me to open it then maybe I can knock him down and give me a chance to grab one.

[mroliver77]

The movie people pull their pistols and rack the slide when danger appears. This annoys the heck out of me! My 1911 has one in the tube and 8 in the mag!

My revolvers are fully loaded. If an old style single action is by my bed it has six in it. In a holster it has five.

[Olevern]

Once knew a guy who kept his S&W mdl 10 loaded that way. When I asked him why he said it was in case his wife got mad at him he would have time to get the gun away before she could pull the trigger again. Must have been some interesting arguments in that household.

That there is sum crazy stuff....get rid of the wife, keep the loaded gun.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Over the course of 30+ yrs carrying first revolvers and transitioning to semi-autos in the mid 80's we were trained and drilled to always scan our surroundings for unexpected additional or multiple adversaries. This was even when none were evident or expected. That one empty chamber on either the revolver or semi-auto seems to simply provide one less chance to end the conflict in a favorable manner for me and mine. Simply put, that practice is one I will never consider for myself. I don't fault the gentleman though, each individual has to justify in their own way as to how best to protect themselves and/or loved ones.

Mike

[Echo]

I was at my GF's house the other night, and she showed me what she had in the night table - a Raven .25 auto her (passed away) husband had left her. Full mag, but none up the pipe - and she isn't strong enough to rack the slide. Will have to rectify that situation...

[JIMinPHX]

When carrying older type revolvers that don't have hammer drop safeties on them (like a cap & ball), I carry hammer down on an empty chamber for safety. Those things can go off if the hammer gets bumped. I do not carry with an empty chamber in the position where I will need my first shot to come from.

I've been told some old folklore about old time cowboys who used to put a rolled up dollar bill in the empty chamber under the hammer to pay for their funeral in the event that they came out on the wrong end of a gun fight. That might just be an old campfire story though. It must go back pretty far in time if a single dollar would pay for a funeral.

[JIMinPHX]

The movie people pull their pistols and rack the slide when danger appears. This annoys the heck out of me! My 1911 has one in the tube and 8 in the mag!


I saw a silly B movie many years ago where the hero racked the slide on an auto pistol, then fired, then racked it again, then fired, then racked it again, etc, etc. Pure stupidity that showed just how little some Hollywood types know about guns.

[badbob454]

Never heard of such silliness! I keep mine FULL!

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Alaskan/OhYeah3.jpg

nice picture, ..... that would stop me in my tracks

[Bad Water Bill]

I am with the majority here. Don't let somebody take your weapon in the first place.
However, me and a buddy just had a similar conversation about weapon retention last night. My buddy is very skilled with fighting with his hands, and he claimed he would be able to disarm an uneducated opponent relatively easily as long as he wasn't immediately shot. I believe him.

Then I brought up how there is a fighting style entirely for the use of a handgun. Keep it close in to the core, etc. He said "Well yes that is true, but I said uneducated opponent." The members of this forum are very well versed in their weapons of choice.

I would much rather have a full cylinder.

For 25 years I worked with a man who held a 5th degree BLACK BELT in 7 different martial arts. He was on a first name basis with many of the people we have heard about including some in Japan where he studied. When ever Andy was asked what position was best against a gun he immediately dropped to his knees and said OUR FATHER.

There is no one on earth that can move at even 1000 FPS period.

[looseprojectile]

I probably put more thought into this than is necessary, BUT.
When I think about encountering a boogyeman in the dark I might not want him to know I am there.
Therefore I may not want him to hear me rack the slide on the .45 or the pump shotgun or drop the bolt on a semi auto rifle.
I don't ever want to be in a fair gunfight.
Silence is golden in a lot of cases. So I keep a DA revolver [4" model 27] loaded to the nuts and then in the smoke filled room if I need more shots than six I should be close to the thirty shot Kel Tek PMR 30 which I would have to rack the slide on. I think any assailant would be aware of my presense at that time.
There are also ways to load the single action revolvers with six shots and lower the hammer between chambers somewhat safely. Most percussion revolvers were made to do just that. My old model Super Blackhawk .44 mag. has a special place for the firing pin nose between the rims.
If I am going to rack something I will go for the twenty shot .308 semi auto.
I live in the country with no neighbors in sight so I feel quite alone at times. Try to make any light shine on them rather than you.
I hope that I have covered all the possibilities in my own little mind.
My dog is a really good early warning system, though he is terribly gun shy.

Life is good

[Gary Carter]

I saw a silly B movie many years ago where the hero racked the slide on an auto pistol, then fired, then racked it again, then fired, then racked it again, etc, etc. Pure stupidity that showed just how little some Hollywood types know about guns.

If the gun was a 1911, they do not like to cycle with blanks. That is why in the movie about Sargent York when he shoots the seven Germans he uses a Luger that he supposably picked up. Instead of his issued 1911 that he used in real life. The Luger will cycle with blanks.

[Jim]

.....I live in the country with no neighbors in sight so I feel quite alone at times..... My dog is a really good early warning system, though he is terribly gun shy.....

That sounds a lot like our situation.

We're 5 miles from the stoplight of a one horse town, 3/10ths of a mile off the blacktop and you'd need a good scope mounted high powered rifle to hit the nearest neighbor's house.

There's a hundred yards between the front door and the turn in the drive, so it's all but impossible to sneak up on the house in a vehicle.

We have four dogs and, because we rarely have visitors, anything that moves draws all their attention.

[fishnbob]

I know of a guy, a contractor, who was target shooting with a Colt dbl action revolver .22 when a call came in about a problem on one of his jobs. He put the pistol in his shoulder holster and drove about 5 miles to the jobsite. The problem was inside a building where his company was doing some work. Several employees met the contractor and was standing around discussing the problem when the contractor leaned over to point out how he would fix the problem and his Colt revolver fell out of his shoulder holster and upon hitting the concrete floor on the hammer, it fired. The .22 bullet went into a fellows hard hat, right above the right ear, turned and ran around the inside of the hard hat and exited above his left ear and I don't think they ever found the bullet inside that building. The contractor was escorted out of the building and instructed to remove his men and equipment immediately and was never allowed to bid on any other work there. He forfitted all current contracts as well. He lost a pi$$ pot full of money due to loss of income and had to get a lawyer to get him out of the lawsuit. I saw the hard hat and the 2 holes with the black line of bullet travel around the back of the hat. It wasn't someones time to go! He tried to sue Colt but he couldn't get the pistol to duplicate the discharge.

[S.R.Custom]

If the gun was a 1911, they do not like to cycle with blanks. That is why in the movie about Sargent York when he shoots the seven Germans he uses a Luger that he supposably picked up. Instead of his issued 1911 that he used in real life. The Luger will cycle with blanks.

Indeed... Old episodes of Magnum P.I. show him with a 1911 when he pulls his gun. But the 1911 suddenly becomes a Star Model 'B' when the shooting starts...

http://www.imfdb.org/wiki/Star_Model_B

[Chicken Thief]

Never heard of such silliness! I keep mine FULL!

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/ShawnTVT/Guns/Ruger%20Alaskan/OhYeah3.jpg

That Sir is absolutly super focus photographing, and may i say just what an intruder needs to see!

[Char-Gar]

I often wonder how humans came to be on the top of the food chain, was convoluted and distorted as our thinking can be.

[Chicken Thief]

If we in the end have nothing to fight for but our own then think: The Matrix!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOi6v5DD_1M

[looseprojectile]

If it comes to a choice between them or me, It's gonna be them that go.
Period!
Why would any human think otherwise?
My mind is made up and full of hate for anyone that would try to take my life or the life of any of my family. Locked and loaded so to speak.
I can think of several instances where I hope that I can shoot first.

Fill in the blanks---- The only good ______ is a dead _______ .

You put a baby raper in prison for ten or fifteen years, you have a ten or fifteen year older baby raper.

I am at the top of MY food chain. I can see the end from here though.



Life is good

[Ozarklongshot]

I'd just hate to die for lack of shooting back!
Full to the brim

[rintinglen]

If the gun was a 1911, they do not like to cycle with blanks. That is why in the movie about Sargent York when he shoots the seven Germans he uses a Luger that he supposably picked up. Instead of his issued 1911 that he used in real life. The Luger will cycle with blanks.
Except that the person doing the technical advising on that set was...Alvin York.
If they wanted to show him firing a 45 and had trouble getting blanks to work, all they had to do was hand Gary Cooper a 1911, have him fire seven shots then cut to the seven german soldiers falling. Nobody at this late date "knows" exactly what happened with what gun there that day.:veryconfu

[nicholst55]

I suspect this erstwhile gentleman has been drinking too much of the anti-gunner's kool-aid. They swear that any mere citizen who tries to use a handgun for self defense will have the gun taken away and used against them - especially if she's female.

[Harter66]

I have a reason,maybe,I was awfully young but I do recall certain states having carry laws merged w/motor vehical laws. You may carry open in most of Nv and at that time Ut also but when you get in a car on a motorcycle etc you fall in to "a weapon shall be considered unloaded when there is no round in the IMMEDIATE firing chamber",my capitals. So a full mag is unloaded w/an empty chamber even w/the slide open,as is a 6 loaded w/5 and a 1st hole empty. W/a CCW you beat that in Nv as well as in the home. I think that motorhomes fall into the grey "officers disgression" area.

Me 6w/ a hammer block 5 w/o , 13 in the BHP on the road 16 at home .

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

every theory is wonderful, until the first shot is fired...

[Chicken Thief]

every theory is wonderful, until the first shot is fired...

And most shots are fired in the name of self preservartion...

[Stick_man]

I have a reason,maybe,I was awfully young but I do recall certain states having carry laws merged w/motor vehical laws. You may carry open in most of Nv and at that time Ut also but when you get in a car on a motorcycle etc you fall in to "a weapon shall be considered unloaded when there is no round in the IMMEDIATE firing chamber",my capitals. So a full mag is unloaded w/an empty chamber even w/the slide open,as is a 6 loaded w/5 and a 1st hole empty. W/a CCW you beat that in Nv as well as in the home. I think that motorhomes fall into the grey "officers disgression" area.

Me 6w/ a hammer block 5 w/o , 13 in the BHP on the road 16 at home .


Harter, in Utah the law indicates a firearm is legally unloaded if it takes 2 or more actions to fire it. A revolver, to be considered unloaded, must have nothing under the hammer or in the cylinder next in rotation. (even in a SA). Two pulls of the trigger. However, with a CC permit, the gun doesn't have to be unloaded, so mine have one in the pipe and/or a full cylinder.

[floodgate]

"...I've been told some old folklore about old time cowboys who used to put a rolled up dollar bill in the empty chamber under the hammer to pay for their funeral in the event that they came out on the wrong end of a gun fight. That might just be an old campfire story though. It must go back pretty far in time if a single dollar would pay for a funeral..."

I've always wondered what shape that bill would be in after a couple of .45 Colt BP loads had been fired in the chambers on either side!

In my opinion, anyone going into gunfight with one chamber empty must have a serious death-wish!

"...The Luger will cycle with blanks..."

HUH??? I've had and shot many Lugers in both 9mm and 7.65 persuasion, and with any but full-charge military loads you usually have to really stiff-arm them to get them to cycle fully. The Winchester and Remington 9mm's sold after WWII were pretty wimpy, and the Luger my Dad gave me when he came home would barely digest them. Same happened a couple of years back with a friend's Luger at the local range. It wouldn't cycle and feed properly until I told him to lock his elbow and "lean into it!"

floodgate

[Harter66]

Thanks stick man,as I said it was a long time ago. I couldn't remember the exact wording and its likely to have changed since 73' or 74' me being all of 6 or7.

[tmax64]

I live well out into the country and I keep magazines about 2/3rds of capacity and pipe empty. I have lots of little dogs that will raise hell if any thing out of the ordinary occurs. I like the idea of racking a slide while the fidiot is in the living room so he can hear it and leave, but if he doesn't I can empty my magazine of my 40 while momma is grabbing her 380 for backup.

[palmettosunshine]

nice picture, ..... that would stop me in my tracks


Please tell me that picture was taken with a self timer on your camera.....

[Jim]

I've had my wife take photos like that using dummy cartridges. On the other hand, if the trust factor is absolute.....I'm just sayin'.....