Anyone load the 7.62x25 ?

[greywuuf]

I have searched a couple of times and it seems that the old Tok round is only mentioned in passing or in the worst calibers to load for threads. I am only a week or so out on a 16" ar in this caliber ( gas not blowback) and I have one of Swedes
115 grain Round nose molds (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=111326) coming in as well. I was just curious if anyone had played with this cute little round in any carbines and if you could share some results and some starting points ?

Dan

[mold maker]

I've loaded some for a CZ52,but not a rifle. The results were as good as factory, and not much cheaper.

[arjacobson]

i have loaded bunches of these but only for a m57 pistol. I use the lee bullet mold for mine. A lee factory crimp die is almost mandatory as the neck is very weak and other crimp styles will crush the case. They will look just fine but will have a slight bulge and will not chamber.. After i went with the FCD all my troubles went away. Where are you getting your upper for 7.62x25? I want to get one but cannot find a maker. I use starline brass-100 gr lead bullet-sized .309-tumble lubed-hodgen h110 powder. 10.3 grains with a regular small pistol primer. Works in my tokarev pistol and the funny thing is I have had NO leading whatsoever. Run a couple patches through with solvent and barrel is clean again... Fun round to shoot!

[greywuuf]

Well, I actually just bought a test barrel that another builder happened to have in stock. Most of the uppers I know of either came from Ron Williams (can't remeber the name of his company but a search on arfcom should locate him) or Marty terWeeme (Teppo Jutsu of 458 SOCOM fame) Heavy Metal Co. (a member here) offers mag well adaptors.
Good luck in your search I am realy looking forward to mine. PM me if you need better direction, as I am unsure how much advertising is acceptable here. There is also a forum devoted to the 7.62 TOK.

Homeland defense begins at home. I'm not there. Sent from a mobile device using a commercial app.

[frnkeore]

I've done some load developement with my Norinco 54-1 with 110 gr J's.

11.5 gr WC820
Starline brass
F100 Fed primers
1.37 OAL
1408 fps
31 ES
12.4 SD

You can go at least .5 gr higher in a Tok and I'm sure that you can go more than 1 gr higher with rifle primers in a carbine.

I would be careful not to get the GC to far into the shoulder area. I think if you throat it for 130 - 150 gr bullets, you could get some impressive results in a carbine.

I'd be interested in that Tok site or forum.

Frank

[greywuuf]

Let me check with the site owner and ask if it is ok to post the link here. I will give it to you in a PM no problem, it is after all a forum and a started by a business owner. I just want to ask before I post it.

Homeland defense begins at home. I'm not there. Sent from a mobile device using a commercial app.

[greywuuf]

oh and throating is generous, several guys on the forum I mentioned have run some tests with 120's 15o's 180's and 200's though in that case we were keeping an eye towards the subsonic thing. I hope to be the first to try the 247 NOE whisper bullets in one.... though being a bore rider it is not quite the same throat requirements.

I have to credit Marty TerWeeme of Teppo Jutsu for being where I learned of the subsonic long OAL in a 5.45x39 AR mag. I think he has done some bolt guns and M1 carbine conversion to this cartridge as well

I just have not seen much info on cast Boolits, and was hoping my impulse buy of the cute lil 115 grain would allow me an economical alternative to the surplus rounds that are such a Royal PITA to get in Alaska ( IE: I hope they function in my PPSH mags ) I can not remember now if the 41's or the 43's are the recommended ones , but they are curved 32 rounders nice double stack that seem to be very durable.

Myself even though I don't have an upper I did have dies and a big pile of LC .556 brass.... so I cut a bunch down and formed it (well ok I formed it first then cut it down ) and hope to use that ( which would allow the standard bolt )

[greywuuf]

I have received several request about info on Tok Carbines. I got my info and parts from this forum:

http://762x25tokarev.proboards.com/index.cgi

that will answer questions better than I can.

[HMC710]

One of my favorite Tok rounds is 9.5 gr of H110 with bulk 147 FMJ's seated to the lands. Very accurate. We have been building Tokarev AR barrels, gas systems, magazine adapters, (Pps-43's are the ones you want GW, the 41's are a different animal) and complete uppers for about 3 years now. Like GW said above, my thanks to Marty at Teppo Jutsu for his help getting us into this as well as his referal of his customers to us for their Tokarev needs. Our stock barrels are 1:10, but with the "legitimization" of the 300 / 221 we now stock 1:8 blanks as well for those sub users and 200+ gr bullets. The Tokarev is a high powered round and can easily be pushed to 1800 fps in a carbine. And for those that want a little more "oomph" :mrgreen:..........

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u155/tekwerk/240SMK.jpg
Hornady 180 SP and Sierra 240 SMK

I also would like to give a +1 to NOE for the fine boolit mold, fantastic!

HeavyMetal

[frnkeore]

I have a question for you guys loading the 7.62x25 cases in AR plateforms.

Why not shorten 223 cases to about 1.44 so you can use the standard 223 mags with the 147+ 30 cal bullets? Maybe even make the neck .38 - .44 long to accomodate 200 gr. The brass has got to be cheaper than the 7.62x25 and you wouldn't have to adapt PPS or carbine mags to the AR.

Frank

[greywuuf]

I do use .223 brass, and the long loads go in 5.45x39 mags. The taper just works better. A limited number will work I hear in 5.56 mags, but as I don't have one yet I can not say for sure.
The pod mags only hold factory length ammo, usually ultra cheap milsurp.

Homeland defense begins at home. I'm not there. Sent from a mobile device using a commercial app.

[frnkeore]

It would seem more versatile to use a long neck instead of a long free bore throat to handle different length bullets. You would also have a wider selection of powders to use.

Frank

[greywuuf]

frnkeore,
I am not arguing with you, as you are most definitely correct. However the point of most of these guns was that when conceived the milsurp 7.62x25 was absurdly cheap ( 9 to 11 cents a round ) and most people wanted to shoot that. A mag that was cheap and available was found.
the carbines were a lot of fun and people built or ordered a number of them. then a couple weirdo's started playing with heavy bullets and here we are. honestly I cant see any advantage of using essentialy a shortened .300 whisper ( long neck) or blackout to do this

if you are going to a custom chamber and custom reamer... you might just as well go for the added versatility of a something that fills the entire mag ( 300 whisper et all ) by cutting a long chamber neck you would lose the ability to use milsurp ( well they might chamber and go off, but accuracy ( such as it is with surplus ammo ) would go away I would think. as it is you have a decent fun high speed blaster and with a simple mag change and drop the adapter, don't even have to open the action.. comes out the bottom like a mag ) you can play the subsonic game reasonably well. Admittedly the TOK is not a purpose built heavy bullet cartridge and I don't think a great majority of the users see it as that.

that the problem with "dual purpose" you cant optimize either

[HMC710]

The question of "why not just ....." hopefully will continue forever and promote ideas and development. Therefore my motto is "Why not?" The Tokarev is what it is and when it was $80 a case of 1100 rounds, people wanted to shoot it. Then the "why not just..." to get more power and you get something like this......
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u155/tekwerk/Tmag5.jpg
9mm Win Mag run through Tokarev dies = Tokarev Mag or 30 Wisp

and then you want something with more power and you get something like this

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u155/tekwerk/300BO1.jpg

The "new" 300 Blackout (300/221; Fireball; Whisper; etc)

Then you want to maximize the magwell and you get the gentlemans 762x40 round noted over on arfcom.

Then you get "What if you bumped up the caliber?"

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u155/tekwerk/357SS.jpg
10mm, 9x25 Dillon, 9x23 Win, Tokarev The 9x25 & 9x23 are absolute power houses!

Or "Why don't you reduce the caliber?"

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u155/tekwerk/7mmFireball.jpg
300 Blackout, 7mm Fireball (7 TCU Short)

Its all good and there is no wrong answer, what more could a guy ask for? [smilie=p:

Besides more lead, primers, powder, time..........:cbpour:

[frnkeore]

I have nothing what so ever against trying new things but, it looked like you guys were struggling trying to make the 7.62x 25 something that a longer cartridge would do better. I understand the cheap ammo part, I too remember when the 7.62x25 ammo was $80 a case and the pistols were about the same price plus, you could get a 38 Super barrel to go with it.

Now you can get the 223 cases cheaper than reloadable 7.62x25's so, I immeditely thought, why not use the whole mag and not adapt one and then get into high pressure problems with a small capacity case.

Other than subsonic, I think I'd go up to the 6.8 Rem case for the 30 cal loads and a bit more velocity but, the cases cost more. OR, how about a .375 X 6.8 :)

Frank

[trench]

As you lengthen the barrel and up the velocity, you will have bore leading probs, unless have just the right lube and alloy, I"ll bet. The entire project with the aR upper sounds like a huge pita to me?

[greywuuf]

I may be mistaken but the .338 Spectre ( mag length in the ar) chosen for the 300 grain Sierra match kings high BC is based on a 10mm magnum case, but I think there are guys using 6.8 brass as well. ( shortened of course)

Trench ? I don't understand the comment, Lengthen the barrel and up the velocity of what ? the original CB load I was talking about in the 7.62x25 case? or one of these other things people are talking about. and the AR is not really a project, it is no more PITA than any other AR. Mine will be shooting mostly long slow bullets, but it is fun to blast with the cheap stuff once in a while ... thus my question on the "lightweight" pills. realizing that they are actually heavy weights for the 7.62x25 ( standard load is about 86 grain bullets) should not be a real trick to keep them under 1500 or where ever they get to before leading problems set in.

I think of the 7.62x25 carbine as just a variation of the 9mm AR's that are fairly popular. plus I like bottle neck cases in semi auto's.

Here is a link to a picture posted on Marty's site... (credits are given there) it uses an unmodified cheap surplus mag and it looks COOL, whats not to like
http://teppojutsu.com/HDR%20762x25%20M16%20SBR.jpg


one last thing, the 6.8 x 308 variant can be loaded with 30 Herret dies and was coined the 30 HRT (Herret Rimless Tactical ) by Marty and is also featured on Teppo Jutsu

[HMC710]

Yep, entirely possible to use up the standard AR magwell. My Beowulf uses 400 gr boolits and I was told by the previous owner that it ," rolls black bears with authority." I can say first hand it drops MI whitetails with equal authority. Going with the bigger boolit route I did a 35 ARem.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u155/tekwerk/35ARem.jpg

It uses a 7.62x39 case run through shortened 35 Remington dies. It loads the 180 Hornady SSP's just fine, but need to do some throating work for the 290 gr hardcast boolits I picked up. Its pushing the 180's at just over 2200 fps.

As far as the Tokarev goes, no struggles here, just playing and customer demand. I picked up 2 Lee boolit molds 2 yrs ago for it, 180gr RN and a 120gr RNGC for the hight velocity stuff and have not run a 120gr load through it yet. :Fire:

[colonelhogan44]

I considered reloading/casting for my cz-52, but it sends my brass to the edges of the known world, so I think I'll stick with cheap surplus.

[Twmaster]

I considered reloading/casting for my cz-52, but it sends my brass to the edges of the known world, so I think I'll stick with cheap surplus.

Roger that! Add to that I cannot shoot the surplus at either indoor range here. So reload I go...

I've reloaded some Tok cases with 130 grain lead boolits with good results. Also. 110 grain pills for the .30 carbine fit and fly well. And there is load data for the 30 carbine round.

I just used 4 grains of Red-Dot and let the lead fly.

[greywuuf]

Man makes me wish this cute little boolit mold I bought would actually fit in my magazines :(
Might have to trim my brass a little.

[badbob454]

Roger that! Add to that I cannot shoot the surplus at either indoor range here. So reload I go...

I've reloaded some Tok cases with 130 grain lead boolits with good results. Also. 110 grain pills for the .30 carbine fit and fly well. And there is load data for the 30 carbine round.

I just used 4 grains of Red-Dot and let the lead fly.

why cant you shoot surplus ammo?? is it more toxic?

[Twmaster]

The Surplus Bulrgarian ammo I have has a copper washed steel jacket on the bullet. They do not allow any steel in the projectile at any of the indoor ranges here. They even ban the Wolf/Tula Wally-World stuff with steel jacketing.

Thankfully I can find most of my cases at the indoor range. Even though they have flown 4-5 booths down the aisle.

[Clark]

I have done a lot of experimenting with the 7.62x25mm cartridge over the last 12 years.

The most power I can get is 110 HNDY FMJ 9 gr Power Pistol 1.316" with Starline brass
The most power I can get is 110 HNDY FMJ 10 gr Power Pistol 1.316" with S&B brass

CZ52s need not apply, the may split the chamber. I have blown up two of them and seen a lot more blow up. The chamber is very thin and varies from RC25 to RC47. A very weak pistol, despite what the books say.

Broomhandles are stronger than CZ52s [despite what the books say], but I would not shoot those loads in a broomhandle.

Mace chamber adapter for 30 Mauser to 308, not so good.

7.62x25mm Tokarevs are all good.

I have converted a 1903 Turkish Mauser to 7.62x25mm, and it is good too.

[frnkeore]

Clark,
Are you the Clarkm, that posted loads and info on Shooters.com back in '02?

Frank