trigger work...power custom tools

[mike in co]

guys,
i have just purchased from midway the power custom trigger tools for an ar15/m16.

first is a block to mount hammer and sear to check visual alignment

the second is a stoning fixture( series II). a nice heavy tool to which one adds a specific( ar15/m16) jig for the actual stone work.

ok guys i have hand stoned a couple of triggers( which is why i bought this tool), but how about some input from anyone that has done trigger work and specifically anyone that has used this series of tools.
( the m16 jig is back ordered so i got time to absorbe some input)

just so you know my intent.
i have three single shot ar's that i use for benchrest competition. i NEED to get my triggers down to 2-4 OUNCES!..........not the 1.5 to 3.5 POUNDS they are at currently.

thanks
mike in co

[danski26]

I have not attempted an AR-15 trigger but I have been warned that the “hardened” metal on most of the manufactures fire control parts is very thin and will not with stand much stoning. If you break through that “crust” it will not last very long. I am guessing that this is why chip McCormick, Timney and others have come out with complete assemblies for the AR triggers. I received this warning at Colt factory AR school.

[danski26]

My machinist / gunsmith buddy just stopped over while i was typing out the last post and he agrees that if you break through that crust you are screwed. He does not stone AR triggers he says. If you want to talk to him directly call Precision Sports at (920) 233-2274 and ask for Kerry Blankenship. He is a former match shooter and has tons more experience with match rifles than I.

[rvpilot76]

Besides cost, what would keep a person from re-heat treating the part after stoning?

[seagiant]

Hi Mike,
I have the Powers seris one Jig and love it because with the adapters I can probably do 10-15 different pistols. I don't know how many adapters fit it but alot. I have them for all the S&w revolvers,.45 1911's,ruger revolvers and MarkII pistol and BHP's. I needed the adapter for the Ruger MarkII and called Powers Custom and ended up talking to Mr. Powers the gentleman who started the company not the son who runs it now and we talked for at least 20 minites on how he did a trigger job on the Mark II and I felt privlidged to say the least! If you want to talk about an Icon in the gunsmithing business this gentleman is it.
How I use the jig is not to change angles but to polish at the same factory angle and to put in a small break away angle to get rid of creep. The more you use it the more you can do with it! Of course break away angles are more for Autos than revolvers. I shoot alot of different pistols and like nice triggers so it made sense to me!

[mike in co]

midway sell these, but offers sand paper on an metal plate.for the "stoning".........brownell's sells them and recomends the stones that the manufacture lists....i'm gonna order the stones from brownells....but niether of them have the m16/ar15 small pin jig! crude.....

[twoworms]

I have a Rock River two stage, its one of the best triggers I have used in a AR-15.

Something to think about...

Tim

[mike in co]

I have a Rock River two stage, its one of the best triggers I have used in a AR-15.

Something to think about...

Tim


tim i had a rock river in my cmp/dcm rifle...but my need is for a trigger with a total pull of aprox 4 OUNCES or less....these are single shot benchrest guns.... not your typical mag fed ar.......

[dk17hmr]

I did the trigger on my heavy barrel AR. Trigger was 5.5 pounds and now its down to 2. Not as light as you want to go, I did the 20 minute trigger job from ar15.com it was easy, that was with a honing stone and a pair of pliers to cut and bend a spring. Havent noticed any negatives yet with almost 500 rounds through it with the trigger job now.

[Diegokid]

I have used thier jigs quite a bit. I have the jigs for the most used models around here. All have worked as advertised. Using them you can make a log of what you do and how you do it so the rusults are easily repeated.

[danski26]

Mike
How did your trigger job turn out? Did the jig work as advertised?

[Parson]

I have not attempted an AR-15 trigger but I have been warned that the “hardened” metal on most of the manufactures fire control parts is very thin and will not with stand much stoning. If you break through that “crust” it will not last very long. I am guessing that this is why chip McCormick, Timney and others have come out with complete assemblies for the AR triggers. I received this warning at Colt factory AR school.

I have heard that statement for years, I have asked people to tell me which brand they found to be only surface hard, not saying there are not any out there but in all the years I built and worked on and modified AR's I have never found an AR trigger that was not hard all the way through. I have stoned them, changed sear angles, I have modified them to the same spects as the JP's, lightened them for faster lock time, I have yet to see an AR trigger that was only hard on the surface.

[danski26]

As i said in my original post the instuctor gave us this warning. His name was Ken, he is the head colt factory armoror instructor.

My question for Mike is sincere. I have not taken a stone to a colt trigger or hammer because of this warning so i have no experience in how it would turn out.

Parson, you have never had a problem with the worked over areas losing the angle you put on them and start doubling or following?

[Parson]

[

Parson, you have never had a problem with the worked over areas losing the angle you put on them and start doubling or following?[/QUOTE]

I retired from gunsmithing this past year. I wish I could tell you exactly how many AR triggers I have worked on but I can't, its many but not a hundred. I have never had a comeback. The only other point I would make is that I have not worked on many Colts, probably no more than 2 or 3. The dealer I worked for was the state distributer for DPMS so I naturally worked on more of them than any other, though at one time or other almost every brand imaginable walked through the door.

[Larry Gibson]

I have worked over M16A1 and M16A2 triggers. I first worked over several M16A1s for Oregon NG matches in the late '70s. These were Colt made. They did have a thin hardened surface and if you got through that then the edge would peen over in short order giving doubles and triples. I would reharden the surface with Casenite and did not have any problems after that. About 15 years ago I worked over 12 M16A2s (FNCs) that were going back to shoot in the guard combat matches at Camp Robinson. These were brand new rifles. Had the same problems with them and Casenite solved it also. With the M16A2s3 shot burst device you most often get 3 differnet trigger pulls. Some say you don't but I have measured them enough to know you do. That 3 shot burst device also makes for one horrible amount of creep and gravel in the pull. The simple fix is to take the small coil spring out from under the back of the burst ratchet. This makes it non-functional. It also means that "rock and roll" is REALLY rock and roll. A very light stoning of the engagement surfaces and shortening of the sear engagement surface will result in a decent 3 1/2 -4 lb trigger pull, quite suitable for service rifle. When I went to Iraq in 2005 I installed (drop in) a good worked over M16A1 trigger with a 3 1/4 lb pull into my M16A2 and it fuctioned fine all through training and the year long deployment. I of course took it out and put the original parts back in when we returned. The M16A1 parts were put back into the states marksmanship units spare parts as I did want to have them for obvious reasons.

Last month we qualified and I did the first mod to the same rifle I had in Iraq. We shot the new 25 meter course (20 shots prone suported, 10 shots prone unsupported and 10 shots kneeling) on the target with E and F targets reduced for ranges of 50 meters through 300 meters. I shot a 40 out of 40 and was happy as I fired expert on my first IWQ (M14) in '64 and expert on my last IWQ in '07. Never fired less than expert in all the intervening years.

Anyways I have also done a few trigger jobs on AR15s and did them pretty much like the M16s. These days with the quality replacement triggers it is better to just get a quality replacement trigger if you want one of "target" quality instead of "service rifle" quality.

Larry Gibson

[danski26]

Larry

Thanks for the info! What was your procedure using the "Casenite"?

[Parson]

Seeing how that Larry's experience and mine are different in regards to hardness of sear surfaces of AR's, it appears that one would have to take them on a each one different basis. I do not have the military experience of the full auto M-16's as I did my time with Bar's, M-1's and M-14's (full auto)