Alloy needed for Mosin Nagant and 316299

[littlejack]

Hey to all:
I went to the range today with some loads for my m44 M/N. All loads were
topped with the 316299 boolit sized at .316, that I aquired from one of our
members. The bhn was about 15. He stated that they were poured from ww +
tin. I believe all of these loads were running about 1500 fps.
I had 3 batches with 17 grains of 2400 with the boolits seated to 3 different
depths. COL 3.00, COL 3.075, and COL 3.130, respectively.
I had a batch with 10.5 grains of H Universal. COL 3.050
One batch with 22 grains of 5744 powder. COL 3.050
One batch with 25 grains of Re-7 powder. COL 3.050
I was shooting at 50 yards which is uncommon for me, as I generally do all of
my shooting at 100 yards. I shot one group with the 17 grains of 2400 powder
that measured .950 for six shots. COL was 3.075
The next best was the 17 grain/2400 load with 1.20 for six shots. COL of 3.130.
Both of these groups were nice and round.
The 10.5 grains of H. Universal put 6 shots in .625 with the first cold fouler 1"
high, and two fliers dropped 1" low? Total of 9 shots.
I'm not too impressed with the groups, as I have seen other shooters in our club
group cast boolits that well at 100 yds with military rifles with different makes
and models.

Can you guys share some of your favorite alloys and loads with this boolit. This
may save me a lot of R&D and $. I will be getting a mould from the Group Buy
316299 shortly. I do have some linotype metal I can make different alloys. I
would also like to speed things up just for fun.
Thanks in advance.
Jack

[Hardcast416taylor]

Try using 10 - 13 gr. of Unique with the #316299 mold casting with 50/50 alloy, it works. Carnuba Red lube helps also. Robert

[Maven]

littlejack, I've been using the slightly smaller Ly, #314299 sized to .312" and .311" for my M 39 and M 28/30, respectively, Finnish Nagants. My alloy is just WW + 1% Sn added: NO water dropping or heat treating...ever. (No leading either, btw.) As for powders, here's what I've used, with 5744 listed first because it's my favorite CB propellant (pricey, though):

22 - 24gr. 5744

23- 24gr. H/IMR 4198

18.5 - 20.5gr. WC 820 (AA #9 burn rate)

27 - 29gr. IMR 3031

46 - 49gr. WC 860 + LR Mag. primer

47 - 50gr. IMR 5010 + 1cc poly shot buffer + LR mag. primer. Store the loaded rounds with the CB's down/primers up to prevent the shot buffer from migrating into the powder charge.

Hope this helps!

[chuebner]

1" groups @50yd. from an M44 is pretty respectable in my book. My M44 likes the 311299 beagled to .314 with 10gr. Russian Salut. The short barrel with issue sights is definitely a challenge. My alloy is mostly scrap with a BHN of about 15 and I tumble lube with JPW/alox.

charlie

[longbow]

You might try oven heat treating.

I was having some issues with the Lyman 314299 (lapped and sized to 0.315") showing slight skidding with wide grooves in recovered boolits shot from my .303. I figured the 1:10 twist was a bit fast for the alloy (ACWW) and velocity so tried oven heat treating which helped.

It is easy to oven heat treat and may make a difference. If not, no loss.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Thank you fellas for all of your input and personal R&D. I will definately use the information to try and tighten my groups. I will say that my rifle is not stock in any way. I bought it at a gun show a few years back. It was unissued. All of the #'s matched. Not a thing of beauty by any means. Mosins are mirror breakers in my book. UGLY. I do not like UGLY guns.
I bought a Boyds walnut stock and restocked it and, added a nice recoil pad on the butt. I removed the front and rear sights. I had the barrel and action bead blasted and blued. I cut off the original straight bolt and welded a dropped bolt on it to miss the scope. I drilled and tapped the action for a B- Square scope mount and, mounted a Leupold 2x7 Rifleman scope. I glassed the action, floated the barrel and, added sling swivels.
At 100 yards, the rifle will hit a ping-pong ball all day long with the Hornaday .312 sp over a good dose of IMR 4064.
I also added a Huber Concepts trigger. "I should have saved my money." In my opinion, they are not worth the money.
Back top the subject. Do you fellas think that shooting the 316299 at the higher velocities not practical? Will the rifling twist be too fast and cause the boolit to skid?
What is the fastest velocity that y'all have shot this weight boolit?
I thought more shooters used the linotype metal for a harder alloy to hold the rifling?
Thanks again fellas.
Jack

[res45]

1945 Mosin M44 .312 groove to groove bore.

16.0 grs. Alliant 2400

Lee GC .312 160 gr.

WQWW drops right at .314 BHN 12

Gas check applied with Lee .314 sizer

One coat Alox/JPW lube before and after gas check.

Latest 5 shot group shot to date,didn't measure it but it's under and 1"
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j1/rhsikes/res45/scan0001.jpg

[littlejack]

res45:
That is a nice group. What was the distance shot?
I do have some LLA, if things don't come together with my present lube, I will give the alox a try.
Thanks for the reply.
Jack

[res45]

About 50 yds. It was the first load I tried and I only had 5 rds. I shot the bottom two that are right together and I let my buddy shoot the last three. I'll have to try another set maybe next weekend all by myself and see if I can put them all in the same hole. Should be interesting I'm going to shoot a Red Dot group as well.

[Dutch4122]

Try using 10 - 13 gr. of Unique with the #316299 mold casting with 50/50 alloy, it works. Carnuba Red lube helps also. Robert

Just to clarify on this alloy, 50% wheelweight and 50% pure lead, air cooled.:mrgreen:

[littlejack]

Thanks res. I'm interested in your results with your next groups. I have read several times that reddot is a good cast boolit powder.
Jack

[JIMinPHX]

I've mostly used the Harris designed boolits in an M44. With 14 grains of Unique, they gave me around 1600fps. 11 grains gave about 1400fps & slightly better accuracy, but not that much better. Both gave better accuracy than surplus ammo. I'd need to go pull out my old targets to give you all the exact details, but I sort of recall not having a real hard time picking off coke cans at 100 feet shooting off hand standing. I think that my alloy was around 13bnh, which is basically air cooled WW with a little tin added. I had good results from both Lyman Super Moly lube & white label Carnuba Red lube.I also sort of remember wishing that I had a crow bar to pull the trigger with. Those guns are long on brutal strength & short on finesse.

[Bret4207]

You did all that work to the outside of the rifle. Did you clean the barrel of all jacket fouling before shooting cast? MN's and other surplus rifles tend to be caked with decades of jacket fouling. That could be part of the issue right there. You want that bore surgically clean. And did you check the muzzle for wear? That can ruin an otherwise fine group.

Don't concern yourself with the alloy yet. That's step 57. You have along ways to go before you worry about alloy change.

[littlejack]

Jim:
I have a little Unique, I will load up a few batches and give them a go.
Thanks.

[littlejack]

Bret:
A I stated in my earlier posts, when I bought the rifle it was unissued.
The bore was WELL, brand new.
After playing with the jacketed bullets, and seeing what the best load would be with them, I started to work on the loads for cast. I did remove the copper fouling with Sweets 7.62 and CR bore cleaners. As far as being surgically clean (as you stated) I wouldn't want to do an apendectomy with the barrel, and I do not have a bore scope to check with. I do know that there was no visible copper fouling from what I could see from the muzzel. When pushing the rod through, it is a smooth anti-snag motion. I clean until there is no blue coming out on the patch, and then a few more for good measure.There is no leading problems when shooting.
Thanks for the reply.
Jack

[JIMinPHX]

I've seen some Polish mil surps that were advertised as "unissued" condition, but I've never seen any MNs like that. I have seen some MNs that were said to be "arsenal rebuilt" that looked pretty good. If you did find an unissued version, would you mind letting me know where you found it? I might like to grab one myself. I've been suffering with a pretty trashy barrel that needs frequent cleaning.

Also, I looked up some old targets. The boolits that I water dropped shot a little better, but all shot fairly well. I used gas checks on all of them. I didn't do a lot of experimenting with different loads & powders. I've mostly just used that gun for a little plinking here & there. The loads that I listed are a good place to start, but I'm sure that there is lots of room to improve from there.

[littlejack]

Jim:
The rifle was manufactured in 1953. The parts are marked with the 02 Hungarian country code. I bought this rifle from a dealer at a gun show probably 8-10 years ago. I do not know where the dealer purchased the rifle.
I couple of years later, I bought another rifle from the same dealer at a different show. That one was an Egyptin Mauser (8mm) that had never been issued. At that time, or a little before, someone in Europe ran onto a facility with a few thousand of unissued m48 rifles, brand new old stock, perfect condition. I had it rechambered to 8mm-06 AI. This is what I call my magnum. It shoots the Hornaday 195 grain sp at 2800 fps.
Had I known then what I know now, I would have never sporterized or had the rifle rechambered. Live and learn. It is still one of my most favorite rifles.
Jack

[littlejack]

Here a few weeks ago, I took my .314 Lyman H die and honed it out to .316+. I wanted to be able to lube my new 314299 boolits, without sizing them down, and seat the checks
I just finished this afternoon making another "I" punch for that die. I took a transfer punch that was .010 over the new H die sizer dimension. I cut off a length about 3/8's inch longer than the original punch. I chucked up the piece in my drill press and began bringing it to the proper diameter (.316) with files and emery cloth. When It was the right diameter, I cut it to length and shaped the ends to match the original. I used a Dremel tool with a cutting wheel to put the concave face on the punch when the drill press was turning the punch. There are a lot of things that can be made from just a simple (China made) drill press.
I do have a bad crave'n for a small lathe though before I leave this world.
Jack

[Bret4207]

Bret:
A I stated in my earlier posts, when I bought the rifle it was unissued.
The bore was WELL, brand new.
After playing with the jacketed bullets, and seeing what the best load would be with them, I started to work on the loads for cast. I did remove the copper fouling with Sweets 7.62 and CR bore cleaners. As far as being surgically clean (as you stated) I wouldn't want to do an apendectomy with the barrel, and I do not have a bore scope to check with. I do know that there was no visible copper fouling from what I could see from the muzzel. When pushing the rod through, it is a smooth anti-snag motion. I clean until there is no blue coming out on the patch, and then a few more for good measure.There is no leading problems when shooting.
Thanks for the reply.
Jack

Okay, so we can assume the barrel is pretty clean of fouling and has at least a fair internal condition. How about the muzzle? If the crown good? Any chips or rough areas?

Your 17.0 2400 is already shooting under an inch and that's with a generic boolit not fitted to that gun. You need to check the mechanicals and then go to fit. Alloy changes aren't even in the game yet.

I don't know how much cast experience you have, but I get the impression you've been sold the "Alloy is is the ANSWER!" bill of goods. Alloy, usually HARD alloy, isn't the answer. It's part of one of the tools. Once you get beyond the mechanical issues, FIT is the key tool and proper boolit fit, static and dynamic, is the answer for a given boolit/rifle/powder/primer/alloy/case/exterior conditions/altitude/etc. Cast and jacketed are like apples and maple syrup- both are foods but one you just grab off the tree and eat when it's ripe. The other you have to tap the tree in the proper weather at the right time of year when the tree is large enough, collect the sap, boil it for hours without scorching it, filter it, maybe finish it and then bottle it and grade it. Two different things, eh?

BTW- ditto on the lathe. I have a small one and trust me- a small one leads to a larger one which leads to a mill and then a larger mill ad then and iron worker and welders, etc, etc, etc!

[JIMinPHX]

What Bret says is true. If I were you, I'd concentrate on getting a good fit right now. That is one of the biggest things to worry about. After that, I'd look into finding a proper seating length. Then I'd worry about the other stuff.

[littlejack]

When I started on my M/N cast boolit venture, a few years ago. ( This has been an off and on again project) I went to one of the members of the gun club that I belong to. He was/is an avid cast boolit shooter and has traveled to many cast boolit shoots and has a few wins under his belt. He made a chamber cast in my rifle and showed me the technique to do so on my own, in the future.
Anyway, he recommended the 314299 mould to start with, as it was very close to my chamber dimensions. I bought anf tried this mould will varying results. I would get good partial good groups, (2"- 3") with fliers. These groups were fired at 100 yards. After reading the different postings on the CastBoolits since, I have decided to go with the boolit that fits the throat closer, the FAT 316299. Which leads me to where I am now.
The chamber has a long throat. The dimension is .317. The bore diameter is
.304, and the groove dimension is .313. I have slugged the bore twice for effect.
The reason I was asking about the harder alloy, is that I was wanting to try to get to the higher velocities. I have read by some that the ww+ tin alloy may skid in the fast rifeling.
There is a chart that recognises the different alloys, and matches the bhn to the different pressures created by ones loadongs.
I did recognize, and have known that the seating depth definately has a direct effect on accuracy. That is why I had shot three groups with the 17 grains of 2400 powder. One batch shot the best, and the only thing that was changed was the seating depth.
Keep em coming folks.
Jack