Airlines and Ammo

[greywuuf]

Not sure exactly where to put this so i thought maybe the "reloading section would suffice as a start.

I seem to remember traveling once back along time ago with Guns and some of the stipulations were peculiar.

I know I should check with the airlines themselves but I am afraid of the answer I will get.

I seem to remember that any ammo had to be "factory" and in "factory packaging"
Since I was previously an 06 FFL holder and I probably still have reloads from that time frame, wouldn't that make any say MTM box that I put them in factory packaging. Has anyone actually traveled ( By air as I am certainly not going to drive through Canada with ammo) with hunting ammo lately and can you tell me any issue you may have had ?

planning a trip this spring
Dan

[Pieter C. Voss]

I'd scrounge up a factory box or two from the trash can at the local range and use them for your reloads--assuming that you don't have some oddball caliber.

[greywuuf]

most definitely oddball at least some of them, and the reloads I want to take wont actually fit in a factory box :(

[1Shirt]

I have flown many times with reloaded ammo in plastic boxes and never had a problem. That included two trips to Africa (3 countries), and have had no problem.
I have flown with reloaded ammo in the stated at least 6 times to 4 different states on 3 different airlines without problems. It pays to check with the airlines to be sure as to if they want your ammo with your rifle, or in your baggage. Have had both occur. First time to Africa, ammo was with rifles. The last time it had to be in baggage seperate from weapon. You need to be patient and curtious to TSA and airline folks who are not overly familiar with the proceedures. Becoming irritated or obnixious will just hold you up and cause you more heartburn. I have seen it happen to a couple of people. It pays to not get in a hurry, and have a bit of a sense of humor.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[greywuuf]

I think a "professional purpose built " ammo box is what is required, I mean it has to look like an ammo box and keep them from tumbling about loose, maybe with a neat printed label. That is about what I am thinking, from here Down wont be to bad, we have LOTS of guns coming to Alaska during hunting Season, TSA is well versed on this end. not sure I am looking forward to the procedure at a big city airport coming home.

thank you for the practical experience.
Dan

[smoked turkey]

Just to add my .02, last June I flew to South Africa. I was told by the authorities that the ammo had to be in factory boxes. Reloads ok because they won't know the difference anyway. I was told that all the ammo needed to be the same head stamp, and the head stamp had to agree with the box. In my case I scrounged up two empty boxes of 300 Weatherby and put my reloads in the boxes. I also had to fill out paperwork stating that I was bringing 40 rounds of 300 Weatherby into the country. I believe the ammo needed to match the firearm I was bringing in also. Not too sure about that...just what I remember. What I found was that the airport has jurisdiction and determines how the ammo is to be packed as it leaves the country. In my case, going to Africa, the ammo was packed with my firearm in a locked case. That seemed to be what was required. In returning the airport in Jonnesburg required the ammo to be shipped in a seperate container and checked in with the firearm. Having nothing, we shipped the remaining ammo home in a plastic bag supplied by the airport. I didn't think I'd ever see the ammo again but it arrived safely. I agree with 1 shirt in that the officials that are supposed to know about such things don't and you just have to play it as it comes. At least that was my experience. Flying with ammo and guns is not an easy thing. It takes lots of extra time with officials and customs personnel.

[405]

Can o worms and getting worse but 1Shirt gave good advice.

South Africa Air and RSA sent out a bulletin in the last year or so to the effect that ammo be in separate locked case and not packed with firearm. RSA firearms permit required, even if just overnighting at airport in RSA enroute to another country. Planning and taking care of such details 6 mos or so in advance pays big dividends when you hit the confusion of the foreign airports. Each country in Africa varies regarding rules on firearms and ammo.

Never flown/traveled to or thru Canada with firearms so no info there. But I know enough folks who travel there to hunt who have no problems as long as they get the info ahead of time and comply with those rules.

Here, each airline may vary some and even differ from TSA standards, but after multiple trips, with firearms/ammo around the US via air (the latest being this July thru Washington Dulles), I've never had a problem packing ammo in plastic slip together type ammo boxes that fit the ammo. If it rattles a little I just glue some foam inside the lid, then tape the box securely with duct tape and write the ammo type on the box with a felt tip. That is stronger and protects ammo better than any factory ammo box. I pack ammo in regular checked baggage- not in the gun case. You need to declare you have firearm and ammo when checking in at airport.

[greywuuf]

yeah I have heard that about South Africa. I wont be doing any Safari's I am just trying to go visit my Bro in law and shoot some pigs. the reason I ask is that I happen to have an AR upper on the way chambered in 7.62x25 ( you know the little short bullet pistol and sub gun round ) it also has a very fast twist barrel and I plan to be shooting 150 to 180 (maybe even 247 cast ) out of it, and loaded like that they function in a 5.45 x 39 magazine but no way no how will they ever go in a "factory" ammo box at least not one marked for 7.62x25 here is a couple pictures that might help.http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6035/6281815871_0b590725f8_z.jpg
the loaded round in the middle is 7.62x25.. the bullet next to it loaded looks like this:
http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6052/6281095862_7576cd1618_z.jpg

I don't think they will go into the factory box. but they will fit nicely in several MTM case boxes

I was just hoping that would suffice, otherwise i will be shipping empty brass and cast bullets and spending the first day trying to round up primers and powder and doing some loading.

405 your experience mirrors mine, guns in a locked case ( the used to make you remove the bolt etc) and ammo checked separately, but I believe the little flyer the handed out stated factory ammo and packaging. I was just kinda wondering how up tight they were over that, if they know the difference and or even checked.

[leadman]

Just UPS your ammo well ahead of your trip. Have your brother call you when it gets there.

[greywuuf]

Ups wont take ammo from Alaska, as they wont fly it air ( unless i am a certified haz mat shipper) has to go through a freight forwarder by barge and there is a minimum "pallet" charge of 83 bucks ...... also why i dont ever buy surplus ammo on sale :(

[Stampede]

It’s not only the airline company that has their own restrictions and rules. When you make stopover in Europe you are in for lots of very nasty surprises. There is no airline company that informs you (correctly). Packaging/transporting your ammo and/or gun is in each stopover (European) country different. In many cases a confiscation is the result.

Recently (less than 2 months ago) an American bow hunter made a stopover in Amsterdam. He travelled from the Ukraine via the Netherlands to the US. During his stopover the Dutch Customs confiscated his bow ánd arrows because the Dutch law prohibits these kinds of weapons in the Netherlands. Especially the “hunting” tips ons his arrows plagued the American hunter. He made the local headlines: “Rambo arrested with his bow at Schiphol Airport”.

Last summer during the stopover in Brussels (Belgium) an Italian guy got his 9mm (9x19) pistol and ammo confiscated. He travelled from Italy to England for an IPSC competition. The argument of the Belgium authorities: he did not have the correct Belgium gun owners/transport permit for the 9x19mm, it should stated 9mm Para!

And about 4 weeks ago a German hunter got in some serious trouble. He travelled back from Dallas via Amsterdam to Frankfurt. The poor guy had placed this ammo (less than 10 rounds) in side the same travelling case as is rifle. Air France (his airline company) wanted it this way. But during the stopover in Amsterdam the Dutch Customs confiscated his rifle. It’s against the Dutch law to transport your guns and ammo in the same travelling case. Please note: Most northern European countries have this same law, these governments state that the gun is otherwise “ready for action” (read: assault).

In every situation the local authorities say: You are now in our country and therefore you have to take our laws in consideration! It’s not just a matter of breaking the law but pure a way to pick on you as a gun owner (hunter). Nothing more, nothing less! :?

I have made some hunting trips my self to Wyoming, Montana and Alberta in the past but I all ways made the trip without ammo. Due to these absurd restrictions and “possible problems”. I asked each time my outfitter to buy me some ammo, this has worked out great for me in the US and Canada.

Peter (Stampede)

[405]

greywuuf,

You've probably been bombarded with too much info already. :)

Many of the individual airline employees are not well versed on TSA rules much less those of their own airline. Courtesy, patience will pay off if you run into one of those. What you might do is to go onto the TSA (gov) website and find the flying with guns/ammo section and make a copy. Carry that copy with you.

I've traveled by airline to and from AK at least 20 times in the last 40 years. I've never had a problem while transporting guns/ammo. I think your idea to put it in something like an MTM box is perfectly fine. I think the rules simply state something to the effect... ammo to be in checked baggage and in factory or suitable container designed for ammo. Just add some soft foam packing so the rounds don't bounce around in the container, tape it up good and mark what it is with a felt tip. Then when checking in at the airline counter tell them you have ammo in "this" bag to be checked in and (if flying with a firearm) the firearm is in "this" case also to be checked in (have keys ready for TSA inspection if you take a firearm). The ONE thing that gets most hunting/firearms travelers in a jam is forgetting and leaving ammo/handguns and/or knives in a carry on bag.... big no-nos.

[Mk42gunner]

greywuuf,

I haven't flown with guns and ammo since 1995 I think (I haven't flown since 2000, either) but 405 gave you good advice. Print out the TSA regs and the airline regs, always hady to have them in writing when somebody tries to tell you something that is flat wrong.

I used factory boxes, some airlines actually stated that the plastic ones were acceptable, and put everything in a GI ammo can in my seabag. Some airlines said 11 pounds max, others said 11 kilograms. My feeling was they didn't want loose ammo thrown in a shoebox or something.

Good Luck, and allow plenty of extra time, especially when you are returning to Alaska. I have got to get back there sometime.

Robert

[abunaitoo]

Here, in the aloha state, bullet key rings will be taken away when you check in.
Along with lighters, nail clippers, breath sprays, water bottles, and anything else that the tsa checker you have thinks is bad.
I think it all depends on who you get as a checker.
Most of them here don't know the difference between a live round and a bullet head.
They have a display case with all the things taken away from people.
Funny thing is the even have a few power tools in the case.
I'm sure it's the same all over.

Had a friend that was coming back from a gunshow in the states. He had a military surplus GI stove in his check in. One of those round aluminum ones that the leggs pop open when you take it out of the case.
Tsa lady opened it and the doodoo hit the fan.
She thought it was some kind of atomic bomb.
After a while, someone who knew what it was explained to the superwisor that it was just a stove, and things went back to normal.
They were held up so long that they had to run to the gate to catch the flight.

Another guy I know used his range bag on a trip. Stupid thing to do.
Sniffer picked up some trace powder. Doo doo hit the fan.
He was taken in the back, and almost strip searched befor someone would listen to him.
Missed his flight.

[Crusty Deary Ol'Coot]

Don't do like a friend headed to Alaska did!!!!!!!!!!

He had the loads we had worked up for his .338 - including Nosler partitions - in a sock instead of a box.

Bye bye!!!!!!!!!!!

Had to buy ammo when he landed in Alaska.

After that I bought Lennie some plastic ammo boxes.

I thought plastic ammo boxes were standard fare for reloaders, but guess not.

Keep em coming!

Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

[JIMinPHX]

Each airline has their own rules. Go on the airline's website. Look under baggage rules. Then look under sporting equipment. That's where you usually find the rules on guns & ammo listed. Guns generally need to be in a hard side case that is locked. The TSA rules say no locks on luggage, but gun cases are the exception. They need to be locked. Individual airlines may have additional rules too. Guns need to be declared when you check the luggage in.

Ammo is a separate story. The rules usually state that it needs to be packed in a manufacturer's original packaging OR some other packaging that protects the primer from being hit. There is usually an 11 pound limit for ammo. Primers, caps & loose powder are generally not allowed at all. Again, the rules vary with the airline.

I've flown with handloads several times. I've used MTM style cases more than once with no problems. If they are hand loads, then you are the manufacturer & that MTM case is the manufacturer's original packaging. If you try to bulk pack the shells loose in a peanut butter jar, then you will be out of luck, but the handloader's boxes have always been just fine.

You may run into TSA agents that make up the rules as they go along. I did. I printed their rules before I left home on one trip about 8 years ago. The rules said that I had to lock the case & I had to keep the key & if they needed to inspect the gun, then I had to be present. The TSA guy at EWR made me give him the key so that he could take my gun case in the back room, where I was not allowed, & check things out for himself. I showed him the TSA's own written rules, but he insisted on doing it his way & said that it was standard practice.

Those guys are above the law. They just do what ever they want & nobody says boo. They have blocked several fire exits at Sky Harbor Airport for many years & nobody did anything about it.

Canada has strange rules about what guns you can & can't have up there. Many guns that people hunt with here in the US are prohibited in Canada. I think that Canada requires some extra paperwork too.

[JIMinPHX]

Last summer during the stopover in Brussels (Belgium) an Italian guy got his 9mm (9x19) pistol and ammo confiscated. He travelled from Italy to England for an IPSC competition. The argument of the Belgium authorities: he did not have the correct Belgium gun owners/transport permit for the 9x19mm, it should stated 9mm Para!

Strange,
I was under the impression that in Italy private citizens could not own a 9 x 19 because it is considered a military caliber. I believe that is the whole reason why the 9 x 21 exists.

[Stampede]

You are correct of the 9x21mm in Italy, but you can use 9x19mm ammo for general (international) competition use. This has to be mentioned on your permit! That means that you have to mention all the 9mm's you like to use (or own).

The same goes for .38SP/.357Mag and .44SP/.44Mag and so on. If you have mentioned only lets say .44MAG you are not allowed to own use .44SP. Unless it's specifically metioned on your permit. The same goes for .45ACP and .45AUTO. If have a 1911 and both caliber indications must be on my permit ,just like the .308WIN/7,62x51mm NAVO and we are talking about the exact same ammo !!!!!

If you use .50-70 brass for case forming 12.7x44R (= nearly identical) or the use of 348 Winchester brass, you need to have both calibers mentioned on your permit. The same goes for. .38-40 and .44-40, you can form these cases from .44MAG, so to own and use you need to state all these calibers on your permit.

One wrong case in your possession can lead to confiscation of the ammo and/or firearm. I can go ever further in detail when it comes to using/reloading specific bullets/projectile types !!!!

Don't under underestimate the importance of mentioning "details" that comes with European gun permits and transport licenses! This concept is hard to grasp for most non European gun owners

Peter (Stampede)

[MtGun44]

Don't assume that meeting TSA regs is all you need. You need to meet the particular
airline's interpretation of the regs. Got into a "discussion" with an airline agent over
whether the locking hard suitcase was a 'hard case' for the gun - which had worked for me
for 25+ yrs. Of course, the butthead won - and he would not even READ the TSA regs on
my laptop, just said "That's not how Northwest does it." Missed my flight (away from home)
and had to leave the gun with a friend for a few weeks and buy a small plastic hard case
to satisfy the puke. Needless to say - I will never fly Northwest again.

DO NOT take guns through NY or NJ on the way to RSA. I made sure I flew to SA through
Atlanta, had zero problems with airlines or TSA folks or Customs folks. I went in 2005,
so things may have changed a bit, not sure. Strongly recommend a direct flight from USA
to RSA, if at all possible. Europe and NE USA are hoplophobes and you do not need to
learn exactly how insane they are.

Bill

[seetrout]

Lets ask... "where are you going?"

My experience flying to Juneau via Philadelphia and back with arms and ammo was that the honeymooners trying to get both of their bags in under the 50lb limit was more time consuming than my guns and ammo.

I made sure I arrived very early at Phila INTNTL because of the drama that I was sure to happen....only to have to hang out because there was no drama...in Philly?!?

I think I flew Delta both times.

Guns and ammo from Alaska to...anywhere....yawn.

Just shoot it all up where ever it is you're going to hunt pigs.

Especially if its Cali!!!

Philly may not be gun friendly but at least it's not in one the communist states.

[JIMinPHX]

DO NOT take guns through NY or NJ ...

... Europe and NE USA are hoplophobes and you do not need to
learn exactly how insane they are.


I've gone through EWR (Newark NJ) with guns before. They broke my chops. They made up the rules as they went along. They did not care about the written rules that I showed them. They insisted on taking my keys & taking my gun case into a back room (without me) to do their own little inspection & then didn't want to let me see if the case was still full when they gave me the keys back. On another occasion, they called me back out to the baggage area for a special chat after I was already at the gate. I made it through both times, but it wasn't easy. I had local permits at the time too.

A while back some congressman wrote to the Port Authority in regard to the way that NY/NJ airports were violating the federal gun owners protection act. He got a response from PA saying that they do in fact honor that law. The guys at EWR couldn't care less about what was written in that letter either.

Other airports that I have gone through have varied, but none have been nearly that bad. I haven't tried JFK or LGA or LAX with checked guns.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

the airlines require you to ship ammunition in a locked container separate from your rifles.
Most people just stick them in their checked baggage.
Now they use this as an excuse to gouge you $50 and up for a second bag. When I go to Africa these days (like April of 2012) I make sure I take rifles in calibers my PH has and just leave the surplus with him. He is extremely grateful for an extra hundred rounds of 375 H&H or 300 WM.
My two trips there I just saved the factory boxes and stuck my handloads in. They never checked the headstamps either time.
Rich

[JIMinPHX]

the airlines require you to ship ammunition in a locked container separate from your rifles.


This varies from airline to airline. Some let you ship ammo in the same container, although I prefer not to for obvious reasons. Most airlines do not require that the ammo be locked, just the gun. TSA does not allow you to lock luggage except guns, unless you use a TSA approved lock that they have the key to. You can buy TSA locks at most places that sell luggage.