Argentine Mauser 1891- Mdl 95

[JSH]

OK, some one please slap me. I was looking through a local paper today and what do I spy? AUCTION............... bad thing it is only about 10 minutes from my house next Sunday. Has a fair picture, but have not seen it face to face yet. It looks good in the picture but don't they all? It is listed like this
"Argentine Mauser 1891- Mdl 95, 7-57 cal".
I suspect the caliber is incorrect.
Any way spill yours guts. Maybe if I am lucky you will all tell me to run as fast as I can in the opposite direction of this on.
Thanks in advance.
Jeff

[Buckshot]

..............Well it's kind of mixed up. Argentina DID have the model 1891 as below:

http://www.fototime.com/{8BADE592-C6D7-445A-B218-CDC98642D32C}/picture.JPG
This is my first one and is an early Loewe production and happens to have the carbine handguard, which is apparently correct for early ones. You can see the national crest has been buffed off, which is common. I have another, a later DWM that still retains the crest.

However, all Argentine Mausers were 7.65x53. The same cartridge as Belgium and Turkey used. Brazil and Chile as the most common, along with most the rest of So. American countries buying Mausers used the 7x57.

Argentina transitioned directly from the 1891 to the M98 type model 1909's, so never used a model 1895. Now it COULD be that what they really have is a Chilean 1895 in the 7x57, which would be correct. The 1895 action is a small ring in all respects that count. There is a small shallow lug that is on the right side of the action directly behind the bolt handle, and some people consider it a safety lug.

I don't think it constitutes a safety lug, but I also don't know exactly WHAT it's supposed to be for. Some guess that it's a kind of a guide to eliminate some of the bolt wobble. Whatever, that is the major design difference between the 1893 (and non-Swede 1894) and the 1895.

Regardless which rifle it is, '91 Argentine or '95 Chilean, ammo is easily put together and both rifles were superb examples of the gunmakers art and beautifully built. If the rifle in the auction has a good bore I'd jump on either one.

Both countries exported basicly unissued unfired examples they'd had in store since receiveing them, and these are NOT common. They fetch quite a bit of money. Either example in NRA V-good condition with a good barrel are easily worth $150-$175 and I'd have no problem paying it myself. They are generally fine rifles and if in any condition at all are remarkable shooters.

Everyone who loves rifles should have a couple of each:D

...............Buckshot

[JSH]

Well, I was raelly hoping you would try and steer me in the opposite direction of this one, lol.

"Argentina transitioned directly from the 1891 to the M98 type model 1909's, so never used a model 1895. Now it COULD be that what they really have is a Chilean 1895 in the 7x57, which would be correct."

From my source books and pictures on the net, it is a 1891. The box magazine is a good give away correct? Also it has the short hand guard that is wired on.
That is if the pictures I saw of said rifle are correct.

Another question, is this one of those "funky" bore diameters like the Steyr M95?
I was all gung ho on one of those till I investigated it quite a bit. I liked the looks of them and the way they handled. My FFL man had 3 of them stuck back in the corner, still in cosmoline. I cleaned them up for him just for the chance to see how the worked. Not a Swede or a Swiss, but still a quite charming little rifle. I did have to pass as the bores were beyond what I wanted to fool with, which from what I gathered is the norm for them.

Thanks.............. I think.
Jeff

[Scrounger]

The best likelihood is that it is an 1891 Argentine Mauser in their standard caliber, and the person making up the auction listing is not that familiar with calibers, probably thinks all South American countries used the 7X57. I'd assume it is a standard Mauser and bid on it. If it is, you're happy; if it IS a 7X57, then you've got a scoop, as Howard Cosell used to say. You'd have a rarity that is even more valuable.

[Buckshot]

.............Peru had some 1891's but I don't recall if they were 7x57 or 7.65x53.

"..............Another question, is this one of those "funky" bore diameters like the Steyr M95?"

Well, no. They're what I call a "Fat 30" in that they're close to 30 cal but a bit bulgier. Like the SMLE, Jap, and Mosin-Nagant. Thier grooves will usually run .312 to .314" and the bores from a scant .300 to .303". I've not seen nor heard of one with a larger bore then that.

It's usually no big deal to fit a slug to the groove but an outsized bore can give you fits. If a borerider doesn't ride, accuracy will be a problem. My 1891 Argentine infantry rifles are both nicely barreled and the pictured one will readily shoot a .300"x.312" slug. I have a Engineer's carbine with a somewhat worn barrel yet it's still a .301"X.314" proposition.

I have 2 M1909 Mountain, or cavalry carbines that were produced in Argentina. One is very good. The other has a nice barrel except for an outsize bore. To get it to shoot I had to use a Lyman 8mm mould (323470). Lube-size to .323" and then shoot it up through a Lee .314" sizer die. All hail the Loverin with no bore rider nose to monkey with!

.............Buckshot

[swheeler]

Typo?
1891 Arg
model 95(7x57)
two seperate rifles

[StarMetal]

Buckshot

I think he means that the bore looks really bad on the M95 Steyr. In that case, no, I haven't seen any that had really bad bores. Most looked pretty good, aside from their weird dimensions.

Joe

[StarMetal]

Buckshot

Peru had a 1909 98 Mauser in 7.65x53, but like you said not sure they had anything earlier that caliber.

Joe

[azrednek]

.............Peru had some 1891's but I don't recall if they were 7x57 or 7.65x53.

Buckshot

I've got a Peru 1891 Mauser, it is chambered in 7.65. It is stamped "Mauser Modelo Argentino". It is identical to the Argie version with a few buts, first it has a Peru crest, has the Gew 98 type rear sight and a slightly different handguard. Mine was purchased in the late 70's from Springfield Sporters, they all came with re-lined bores.

[StarMetal]

AZ...now that is interesting as the rifle says Argentino model and has a Peru crest. Wonder why that is and how it came about. Being Argentina didn't make their own rifles at that date wonder how it got Argentino model on the receiver?
Maybe Germany concidered that caliber Argentino for South America.

Belguim had a very similar model as the Argentine 1891, thus why sometimes the caliber is called 7.65 Belgium.

Joe

[azrednek]

Starmetal, I've heard all kinds of reasons as to why but have never seen it in print. Speculating I guess the most logical reason, it kept costs down to use existing tooling. I'm about 90% certain it is German made. It is my understanding the Argies didn't make their own untill after they adopted the 1909. It is buried pretty deep in my vault, I'll try and post some pics later.

[StarMetal]

AZ...yeah that would be cool to see some pics of it. That 1909 Peruvian also had the older Gew rear sight on it.

Joe

[Pb head]

Just got my early bird E mail from Dennis at Empire arms. He has a 1909 Peruvian on it with photo.

Pb head

[StarMetal]

PB

I get that early bird list too and I don't think it's so early. 90 percent of the stuff is sold on it when you get it. I think he needs to go to an early bird early bird list. Like I said before Dennis is raking in the cash.

Joe

[Buckshot]

............I do know that Argentina wanted the 7x57 cartridge. However, Mauser was busy making rifles for Belgium and Turkey, both in 7.65x53. They were told if they wanted their 1891's quickly they would take them in 7.65 Belgium caliber, so they did.

...............Buckshot

[azrednek]

Sorry guys for the 2nd rate photos. This rifle was sold as arsenal reconditioned, the bore was re-lined according to Springfield Sporters, the dealer I bought it from in the late 70's. There are planty of pits, the metal was stripped of the rust and original blue then spray painted black. The re-lined bore is still bright, shiney and shoots excellent. If I recall correctly it cost about 50 bucks, all matching including cleaning rod and the down side was an original sling and bayonet cost more than the rifle itself. Due to me being a cheapskate I never got the bayonet or sling. I certailny miss the Springfield sporter ads that used to appear in Shotgun News.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/peru-1a.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/peru-1.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/peru-3.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/peru-4.jpg

[Buckshot]

..............Nice photos. Interesting that it is a DWM vs a Loewe production. That places it a bit later in the production scheme. I wonder is Peru's order was so small that they just used spare Argentine actions out of production. Of course the Peruvian crest had to go one, but the balance of the roll marking on the side was used as it contained the other pertinant info?

...............Buckshot

[azrednek]

I believe it is a DWM, its hard to see it in the pictures right underneath the Mauser Modelo Argentino stamping on the receiver. The Republica Peruana crest is still intact and hasn't been removed, I just couldn't get a decent picture of it. The crest isn’t stamped in as deep as the Argentine crest, possibly the original Argie crest was buffed off and the Peruvian crest was over stamped, can’t say for sure, just speculation on my part. There is also a couple of the shaking hands stamped on the bolt that I’ve also seen on the Argies. I've never seen anything in black and white as to why the Peru rifles say Argentine Modelo. Mauser collectors have plenty of theories, I just assume it was to keep costs down using existing tooling and/or parts. The thorn in the side on the cost theory is the rear sight and the different and longer handguard. Seems to me it would be cheaper to use the same sight and handguard as the Argies. Possibly and just more speculation, the rear sight is the same that was being produced for Turkey or Belgium and it was cost effective to follow their pattern.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Buckshot, when did Loewe become DWM? My 1895 Chileno has an 1898 cartouche in the stock and is marked DWM.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Buckshot, Another bit of early Mauser trivia was that some of the Chilean 1895s were marked O.V.S. for Orange Free State because the British had South Africa blockaded during the Boer War, OR some of the O.V.S. Mausers were marked as Chilenos on the side of the receiver. I forget which, a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[swheeler]

I'm not BS, but in 1896 Loewe merged with three other companies and became DWM.
Scooter

[StarMetal]

Another difference I see on your carbine besides the rear sight being different is that the Argentine carbines have bent bolt handles, your's does not.

Joe

[JSH]

FWIW, some one wanted it worse than I did. I took it to $210 and quit, went for $240. Crest had been ground off, not buffed. Bore looked fair. Talked to a fellow there that pulled me to one side and said if I wanted a nice one with a crest to contact him.
Between gunshows and estate sales, where the heck are all of these idiots when I am trying to sell somthing? But on a positive note, I come home and look at my "junk" and feel fairly wealthy, lol.
Jeff