Hollywood Gun Shop Swaging Die ??

[Reg]

Would like to find info on a die I picked up some time ago. Mfg. by Hollywood Gun Shop it had to have been used for bullet swaging. Marked Hollywood Gun Shop 25 cal Swage Die. It looks like a normal reloading die at first glance. 7/8"x14 TPI thread. Where it differs is at the lower end it is carefully cut in a spire point form and the length suggest it was made for about a 87 grain spire point. Nothing is adjustable on this end but is drilled through with a bleed hole. From the top it is reamed almost to the forming chamber at 3/8"dia.
I know this cannot be complete but what could be missing and how could it have been used? With some kind of bottom punch it would do a great job of forming the bullet but how in the heck would one ever eject it?
Have other good photos but seem to be too big to down load and I cannot figure out how to do it. If someone has a idea can e-mail them these pictures.
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
Reg

[NoZombies]

That's the top half of a hollywood swaging die. The bottom half threads into the ram and forms the body section, while the top forms the point.

I can post photos to clarify if needed. (not my photos)

[Reg]

Yes, if you would please. Also if you would have any operational info.
Thanks
Reg

[Pressman]

I have the instructions for these dies. Here is a drawing showing how it all goes together in a Senior press.
Ken

[Pavogrande]

It should be noted that these dies are pretty much limited to the hollywood press.
I have seen reference to making a modification to accomadate other press's but I have not seen how it is done. I could possibly put my own 44 and 30 cal dies back into service.

The lower die attaches to the press the same as the hollywood shellholder.
The lower die is spring loaded to compress when contacting the upper die and provides a self ejection when lowered.
The lower die upper face mates with the rebated lower surface of the upper die providing alignment.

In about 1970 the die set for rifle bullets (full length jacket) cost about $50.
my tuppence

[Reg]

Pressman,
Thanks for the print out of the book, it shows a lot and am getting a idea how this was supposest to operate. Looks like the friction of the side of the bullet in the missing lower section of the die provides enough resistance to pull the nose section out of the nose die.
The turned rim on the bottom provides positive alignment and the finished bullet is ejected from the bottom. Actual and finished weight of the bullet is controlled by the weep hole.
Wonder if this can be adapted to a sturdy "C" type press, such as a Herter Model 3 ? A new ram might be in order to allow for some means to eject the bullet from the bottom ?
Do you have the full operation instructions for the die set ? Wonder if they use a separate operation to seat the core into the jacket then obtain finial form in the die that I have or is it all done in one operation ?
What was the book you obtained the cut from ?
Sorry for playing a thousand questions but it might be fun to get this die back in operation again.


:drinks:
Pavogrande,
If I can find any information on getting this die back in operation using a more common press, will post it here.

Thanks
Reg

[MightyThor]

Here is a picture of some of the missing pieces of a Hollywood swage set. These are not my dies, but I do use Hollywoods for 25 and 30 cal bullet making. This can bd done on the turret presses and will also work with the senior press. Also, the Supper Turret is set up for the Swaging, by use of two rods that tie the turret into the base. swaging on the other turrets is not recommended because of turret flex. The core seating is performed on the bottom die attached to the ram. the punch is threaded into the turret. After cores are seated you thread the point form die into the turret and form points on the bullets, the down stroke ejects the formed bullet from the bottom die. I also include a picture of the hollywood presses, the big one is the super turret.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g5/lkydvl/Hollywood%20Dies/38cal.jpg

http://i666.photobucket.com/albums/vv29/KevinRohrer/Reloading/1685.jpg

[Pavogrande]

Mthor dies shown are for half-jacket pistol bullets with the nose former external to the upper die.
OP's die is an internal nose forming die for full jackets.
In my limited research it appears that over the years there were some variations but the basic die set seems to be the same.

My 44 pistol dies -- same as thors but without the core seater and bottom mounted ejector are the same as a '57 stoegers illustration.
My 30 cal dies are rifle dies and do have the core seater but not the ejector. May just be missing from the set --

I can see how one could modify a ram by drilling and threading to fit the lower die, but not how to make the ejector function. Perhaps an arm similar to a priming arm ?.
Unfortunately my limited computer skills prevent posting any photos.
my tuppence

[MightyThor]

Yep, Those are not my dies, I only posted the picture for demonstration purposes, I can't find a picture of my own dies, it is floating around the internet somwhere.

The bottom die shown is substantially similar to my own full jacket dies and the punch is also close enough to my core seat punch that it serves to demonstrate as well. The other parts in the picture are not applicable to the rifle bullet process.

I agree that you would have some difficulty trying to get these to work with a non Hollywood press. The extraction might be done by grooving the ram and installing a stop that would function like a primer seat arm in a RCBS, but when you start cutting on the ram you weaken it. I have seen collapsed rams from 30 cal bullet making, not a pretty sight.

In this case you would first have to obtain a 25 cal bottom first. Might be a long search for something you will have to jury rig to use.

Reg, is your die a round nose or a pointed end? My 25 is a round nose and I have made bullets using 22 LR as jackets, neat little pills.

[Reg]

Mighty Thor,
My die is for a spitzer type design, don't know the ogive yet but will figure it out in due course
Looks like the bottom ejection feature ( function ) is going to be required both for final forming as well as seating the core in the jacket. On a "C" frame press it might have to be as a priming arm but wonder if even the Super Model 3 would take the gaff. The pivot bolt is only 1/4". One could go to a Grade 8 bolt but then the next thing to fail would be the lugs on the press itself. Need to think on this one. The RCBS system where the priming arm flips in over the top would take a lot of the stress off those lugs but would have to see if there is radius clearance. I have a extra press I could modify if needed.
I do have access to a full machine shop so making about anything would not be a problem.
Making the bottom assy for the 25 die would not be a problem at all but need to get all aligned in the brain housing group first. The Model 3 uses a 1 1/4" dia. ram and a new one could be made from StressProof and brought up to Rc30 or so. These are just thoughts at the moment.
If I am see it right, your nose forming die actually appears to be adjustable, mine is solid and not adjustable in any way. I think the adjustment feature would be very handy.
Would it be possible to get a picture of the bottom assembly taken apart. I think I see what is going on from Pressman's picture but another view would really be helpful. It appears that the actual forming section is more or less a floating sleeve that is spring loaded from the bottom. Correct ?????
I thank all who have added their two cents on this. Had planned on doing another project this winter but this old die left over from a horse swap a few years ago might be taking me in another direction.

Reg

:drinks:

[Bent Ramrod]

Here's the Hollywood .25 caliber set I have. I don't have a Senior press to try them out on yet, so I am not absolutely sure of how they are used.

I do have the impression that these dies functioned similarly to the RCBS bullet dies in that there was no separate core seating step. You put the loose core in the jacket, pushed the assembly into the lower half of the die and seated and point formed in one throw of the press handle. The bullet was supposed to remain in the bottom half of the die and was pressed out with the long punch.

[Reg]

Questions, questions and the plot thickens !!
You say there is no core seating die? This might be. What is the lower-center die used for ?
My nose forming die matches yours perfectly.
The top die--- what is it used for ?
Can your middle die be taken apart ? If so, what does the innards look like ???

Sorry for the many questions but we are learning here !!

Thanks all.

Reg

[NoZombies]

Unless I'm mistaken, (quite possible, and apologies in advance) in Bent Ramrod's photos, he has a hollywood shell holder and primer seating rod on top. (not part of the dies set) The point form and lower portion die in the middle, and the core seating "punch" below.

I believe the base section is improperly assembled.

The ejector rod from the body forming section can be adjusted down low enough to allow the jacket to sit fully in the lower portion, with the core seating punch threaded into the top of the press. The core seating punch would seat the core and do the majority of the expansion. Then, after all the cores are seated, the ejector rod is adjusted up so that the jacket with the seated core will protrude the correct amount to have the nose formed in the top section of the die.

I couldn't find the photos I thought I had, but others have provided good photos. I hope my explanation will help.

[Reg]

I know even less about the Hollywood press's but I think you are right, the unit on the top appears to be a shell holder and the lower unit also appears to be a core seating stem.
Don't worry Bent Ramrod, we are all guessing here so it would appear.
For sure I am the one not in the know but I think if I were to set up such a outfit, I would seat the core first but in a slightly smaller than the desired finished diameter, say a .222 or .223 at the most, then go for the final diameter at the nose form. This would require a slightly smaller body form section.
Bent Ramrod, would it be possible for you to take apart that fat center section and show whats inside ??
Going back to adapting such dies to another press, this adjustment feature will have to be carried over.

Thanks
Reg

:Fire:

[Reg]

PS
Hollywood must have made a ton of these and surely there has to be someone out there still using one of them ???????????

[ReloaderFred]

My set of Hollywood Swaging Dies is for a SWC .357" bullet, but it makes bullets at .354". If I get a chance, I'll take some pictures and post them. I just bought a new camera to replace the one my wife's Australian Shepherd pup ate, so I'm still learning how to use it.

Fred

[Wayne Smith]

If anyone has a set in .25 or .44 they have no use for I would love to have it. I have a Hollywood Sr. press.

[Danth]

Missing from all the pictures are the dies which seat the core and swage to the finished diameter. These dies look like little top hats. One has a bore straight thru at the diameter of the finished bullet. It sits in the hole where the shell holder is mounted when using the press to reload. The other "top hat" is not bored thru. It has a bottom. The jacket is placed in the die, then the core into the jacket and it is seated with the punch which is pictured in one of the previous posts.

[Bent Ramrod]

Reg,

The large die portion does unscrew at the bottom knurl. There is a large spring which allows the smooth section of the die to push down into the knurled section and spring back. The inside of the die is a straight cylinder.

It may well be that I have the parts out of order. My early copies of The Ultimate in Rifle Precision cover the RCBS die operation and a few other ones, but I can't recall that the Hollywood set is discussed, at least in any usable detail. And of course the instructions to the set I have were long lost by the time I got them. All I have to go by is the picture shown of the dies set up in the press.

The top piece in the picture is indeed a shell holder for the .30-40 Krag, with (I assume) the priming stake from a Hollywood Senior press inside.

[Pavogrande]

BR - you confirmend the conclusion I reached after looking at the lower dies for a while this afternoon.
There are no visible parting lines on either of my two lower dies. It would appear the die was assembled, knurled full length then a section of the knurled outer diameter was turned off obliterating the part line. I did not try to disassemble the die.
Mine are apparently a two piece main body, the core/cup holder, the ejection rod and two springs.
Rather clever construction.

The upper dies (rifle) appear to be a common body with a nose forming cavity made separatly and pressed in.

[MightyThor]

Ok, bad pictures, but this is the best I could do today. The jacket was a 22 cal rimfire with 70 grain core which turns out an 80 grain round nose.
https://by1.storage.live.com/items/50E21C260FA6656B!356:Scaled1024/1112012244.jpg?psid=1&ck=0&ex=720
https://by1.storage.live.com/items/50E21C260FA6656B!357:Scaled1024/1112012245.jpg?psid=1&ck=0&ex=720
https://by1.storage.live.com/items/50E21C260FA6656B!358:Scaled1024/1112012304.jpg?psid=1&ck=0&ex=720

[Reg]

Think I see the whole operation now. Have been scratching my head and in due course of time will get things figured out how to basicly adapt these dies to a "C" frame press such as the Model 3 but at this point have yet to see what it will take short of a serious machining operation on the press body itself and the creation of some way to provide a means to eject the seated core and the formed bullet.
Going to think on this one for a while.


:drinks:

[Reg]

PS

Have seen where if one uses a .22 long rifle shell, you wind up with either a very open point design that comes in somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 to 55 grains. If you go for a soft point design, you wind up with something about 70 grains or so. This is in .22 caliber.
Questions
Do these .22 caliber cases expand out well to .25 caliber or do you run into splitting brass or off center jackets ? Would they work in .25 caliber for 70 to 85 grain bullets ?
Going back to .22 caliber, has anyone found a good, quick way to cut the deheaded .22 cases off to a controlled length?

:?:

[MightyThor]

Right now, for me, using the 22 rf to make jackets for 25 cal is labor intensive because I am taking jackets already formed for 22 cal and expanding them with a series of punches that have been roughed out from various bolts and screws. I just did this to see if it could be done, and my results are just as you described, the heavier bullets have a fair amount of lead exposed and about one in 5 is malformed. Have not had problems with splitting, but I have annealed first before the expansion.

As far as heavier bullets, you could shoot a pure lead bullet, The question or issue is what speed do you want to shoot and how much leading are you going to get when you start going faster. You could make half jacket bullets and shoot them slower and avoid major fouling problems, but I imagine that if you want to shoot fairly fast bullets, you are going to want a little more jacket around the ogive.

22 Magnum cases would be better suited for 25 cal bullets, but I have no source for these and do not shoot one myself. I have thought about trying to use 17 hmr brass, but have not had the time to mess with them yet.

As far as cutting for use with 22 cal bullets, I have not found a need to do this. lots of folks sort the brass to get a uniform batch of jackets. In the 50 to 60 grn range the 22 rf seem to work well without trimming. I guess for heavy 22s using magnum cases you might want to trim, but as stated, I don't have them and so I don't use them.

[Reg]

Mighty Thor
Again, I have to say thank you. Am keeping all that comes from this thread and hopefully sometime this winter will take it and see what I can come up with. Have always wanted to play with with swaging and have picked up some equipment along the way and have even made a few bits and pieces and will make more, like I say, hopefully right after the first of the year.
I keep telling the wife, I can't kick off. Way too many irons in the fire.

Many years ago I was lucky to have spent a weekend with Fred Barns while he was making bullets in Grand Junction and got to look at the process he used to draw down regular copper tubing to make jackets for the great bullets he was making back then.
So simple. Not sure what he did with tubing after it was cut into the desired lengths but if it was like the draw down process, it was super simple. Rather than messing with rimfire cases for jackets I wonder if Freds process could not be adapted over with a whole lot less work and you would not only have the option of making any length of jacket you would want it would allow you to come up with any bullet weight with any jacket configuration.
Will keep working not only on some way to adapt the Hollywood dies but also on this jacket business. Like most things in life the answer is usually right in front of you. Just have to see it is all.

:drinks:

[scrapcan]

Reg,

I think the best method for rapid trims would be a pinch trim die. I have read about the method in quite a few books, but have yet to make one or use one that is already made. I think someone else can chime in.

There may be some pictures of the die in an old thread in this section. I will see if I can dredge them up.

[scrapcan]

Reg,

as to using the hollywood die in a c or o frame press, you might think about turning the process upside down and using an ejector box/hard set ( my term) on the ejector rod. You may have to shorten the stroke on the ram to accommodate the die on the underside press and use an insert to thread it into.

there are some good images of spring box ejectors or hard set ejectors. BT Sniper is selling hardset (cross bar ejectors, again my terms) and there are instructions for B&A dies scanned that show this type also. The spring box designs are in some threads by swagerman ( sadly Jim has passed on, one nice guy) and I think kenjudo made some also.

[Reg]

Manleyjt

A "pinch trim die" you have me there ??

[hardcase54]

Look here.
http://www.bulletswage.com/et-1.htm

[hardcase54]

Or here.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=74051&highlight=pinch+trim+die

[Reg]

Hardcase54
To #1, with all due respect to Corbin I simply do not have that kind of money laying around
To #2, Now you are cooken with gas !! This looks do able and I do thank you !!

:drinks:

[Reg]

Manleyjt
Am still mulling over your ideas on turning things upside down. Was hoping to use the Hollywood die as is
Need to get a couple of projects out of the way and see what I can come up with on this.

[hardcase54]

Corbin is high $, just showing what one trim die looks like.

[MightyThor]

Bottom die unscrewed.

https://by1.storage.live.com/items/50E21C260FA6656B!371:Scaled1024/1117011958a.jpg?psid=1&ck=0&ex=720

[scrapcan]

Reg,

Holler at Pressman to see if he has a set in the archive that you can borrow for a bit.

[MightyThor]

Wanted to update this thread. I made a deal with REG and acquired his die half. Swaged a lead slug to show the bullet contour from this die. Now just have to make or buy some jackets.https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p3kiWV0-BXTikmvYlapJayLg21pDJDPzZGUMC5BIAmLtGyMgMTY24BLewV JLmeeNaIN6ExManHp5ut126uXD7yA/25cal%201.jpg?psid=1

[Reload3006]

25 Cal?

[MightyThor]

Yep, I have some favorite 25 cals. 3 at 257 Roberts on old springfields and 3 at 25-06 in Ruger and Custom Mauser. I have taken a ton of deer with those guns. I just love em. (and a whole lot of others too... I am a sick man)

[Reload3006]

I have wanted a 25-06 my whole life. But alas I am a lefty and there until the last few years wasn't a production rifle out there for leftys. but now there is. Think some day maybe. LOL

[MightyThor]

I had a precious few 243 jackets and decided to sacrifice a couple to test the 25 cal die. First step was to run the core seat punch into the jacket to expand it so I could get a bigger core inside. Next was to cut some wire to a useable weight. First try gave me a 120 grain bullet with a whole lot of lead at the end. Decided to try the other end of the scale and set up a 60 grain core with the 20 grain jacket. Seated the Core and Swaged the bullet. came out with a nice little 80 grain bullet with just a hint of marking at the parting line of the die. Speer books show a similar bullet at 87 grains with just a little more lead exposed. I think this die would come pretty close to duplicating that bullet.
https://public.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p1_yp37F2wmrEx92Ig8tSRIlde1Sk3qhchCslhYFLIxFd7FE UzDMdDduk8cwXcfbttdNsSaHbttgmwCBvCt4xtg/copper25.jpg?psid=1

and a couple of heavier bullets.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/44754eed7f64b8d83.jpg

[MIBULLETS]

Looking good!

[Reload3006]

looks great Choot em Lizabet LOL

[MightyThor]

Here is a picture of the Hollywood die adapted to use in the Walnut Hill press.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/44754efce0832d0e2.jpg

The ejector is actuated by a longer rod inside the ram.

[Pavogrande]

I am not sure I understand the connection to the cross bar.
Did you make an adapter from the 1/2" die stem to 7/8" -- with a peck of washers as a spacer? I am guessing it is a 7/8" thread that is visible.
I think this might work with most any cross bar press -- ch, dunbar ect --

[MightyThor]

The adapter is a 7/8 bolt, center drilled for 1/2 x20 and the spacers added to ensure that the force is applied to the bottom of the die and not to the stem. I decided to go with the washers rather than just the top of the bolt so that the entire bottom of the die is supported as it would be on the Hollywood press. The actuator for the ejection pin is just a simple rod centered in the hollow of the ram. I think you are right, most cross bar systems would work so long as you have a way to operate the ejection pin on the down stroke.