New to Paper Patching

[wgaynor]

A little background...

I'm bored. :neutral:

I just had my third knee surgery and am stuck in the house. I am unable to venture out into my workshop (i fell last time) so I figured it's a good time to start learning how to paper patch. [smilie=w:

I think I've done it right, but please critique and coach because I am unsure.

I am loading for my Mosin Nagant. The bore has been slugged and measures .313. The bullet mold I am casting with is for my .30-.30. It drops a 180 grain boolit at .310. I used tracing paper and cut my patch. After saturating the patch with water, I wrapped it around the boolit from the top of the o-groove down past the base. The tail is flat against the base. The boolit has dried, so I applied some Lee Alox around it for lube.

This boolit now measures .313.

Here's my question, did I do this right?

With cast boolits, I know the boolit diameter should be just bigger than bore size, but is my .313 boolit ok for the .313 bore?

What load data should I use (Cast or jacketed)? I have plenty of data for cast and jacketed boolits, but I'm not sure how the paper jacket affects the pressure.

Thanks for all of your help and patience!

Wes

[grullaguy]

The only way to tell will be to shoot it and see where it hits.
The normal recipe is to size the unpatched bullet to .001 over bore and then the patched bullet to .001 over groove. Sometimes people get lucky on the first try without sizing the bullet to bore. My advice is to start the target work close up as a poorly patched or sized bullet in front of a full power load can miss a square foot target at 20 yards.

[geargnasher]

First off, sorry to hear about the knee, they're pretty important to moving around!

The terms we generally agree upon here for barrel dimensions are BORE and GROOVE. I think you're refering to groove diameter as bore diameter. Bore is the minor diameter, the size that the hole is "bored" through the blank before the rifling is cut.

Most of the time I take the advice so many here gave me when I started this a few months ago and size my boolits to just a thousandth or two over BORE diameter, and use a paper that, when wrapped twice around the boolit and dried, will bring the diameter up to a thousandth or two over GROOVE diameter. Problem here is needing a sizer not typically available in production sizes to make the boolit the right size before wrapping.

Personally, I haven't had much luck using a boolit that was 5-8 thousandths larger than bore diameter and thinner paper because the lead put too much stress on the paper and ended up leading the bore. It seems like there needs to be a balance between boolit size and patch thickness to get the best results in MOST cases, but you never really know until you try shooting them.

What I've been told and also observed myself is that if the boolit is smaller than bore diameter before patching, accuracy will be terrible. If the boolit is too much larger than the bore diameter and you compensate with a thinner patch, leading can occur.

If I had any boolits near the right size I'd be glad to send you some to try out, but my only mould near that size is .3015" on the driving bands, and I'm sure your Mosin probably runs .303" or larger in the bore.

Gear

[grullaguy]

Good point.

I do have a quantity of bullets that are already sized down to .304. They are Lee C309-180R.
I could always mail them down.

[303Guy]

Sorry to hear of your knee. I hope you'll have fun with paper patching. It is challenging but fun.:mrgreen:

Yup. Too thin a paper fails in at least one of my guns. I was doing just what gear says causes leading - using too large a boolit and compensating with a thinner paper. I've now switched to a smaller boolit and thicker paper, that being printer or copier paper. It survives a pretty rough bore. The curious thing is although the nose section of the boolit is riding on the paper (the nose being smaller than bore), the rifling still impresses into the boolit. In your case, you might have to size to fit the throat. That's what I do. In fact, I size the rear section of the boolit to fit an unsized case neck. I'm yet to determine if that is actually a good idea. In any case, you want the nose section to start to engage the rifling for alignment.

[pdawg_shooter]

I am with the others here. Size to bore diameter + .001/.0015, patch with 16# paper, (I use green bar printer paper), let dry, lube and size to groove diameter + .001/.003 or as large as will fit the throat. Choose a powder that will give you as near as possible to 100% load density and the velocity you are looking for. The slower powder will help prevent deformation of the bullet under acceleration in the barrel. When possible, an un-sized case will give the best accuracy. That is best used for single loading. Try to load a long enough OCL so the bullet seats in the rifle when chambering.

[wgaynor]

Thanks for all the info! I definately have something to get me busy for a while. I have a feeling that paper patching is one of those things that can drive a man crazy while attempting perfection.

[docone31]

Nah. It will be simple. I would perhaps get a final sizeing die that is .314. Use Auto wax to lube the patch and push it through.
I use jacketed start load data.
Once I found the diameter, I went from 20' groups to 1" at 100yds.
Shoots better than I can see!
Fire a few off and see how it works.

[wgaynor]

The mold I was using is the one I cast for my .30-.30 and I was hoping to use the paper patch to size it up (it drops bullets at .310). But since the bullet needs to be at bore diameter(.313) before patching and then patch it up to groove diameter, ...well, I think I'm going to need a new bullet mold (one that will let me cast and size down to .313). Am I on the right path here?

[wgaynor]

The mold I was using is the one I cast for my .30-.30 and I was hoping to use the paper patch to size it up (it drops bullets at .310). But since the bullet needs to be at bore diameter(.313) before patching and then patch it up to groove diameter, ...well, I think I'm going to need a new bullet mold (one that will let me cast and size down to .313). Am I on the right path here?

That's a good idea

[pdawg_shooter]

Your .310 bullet will work great, after you push it through a .304/.3045 die.

[303Guy]

When you say "bore diameter of .313" you do mean 'groove' diameter don't you?

There may be no need to size the as cast 30-30 boolits. Try some with sizing and some without. Try printer paper to get the patched diameter over .313. Printer paper is very compressible and will allow seating in a smaller case mouth and engraving into the rifling leade. That's not to say it's better than green bar, just that with your boolit you may need a thicker patch. If you don't have any green bar on hand, then lined notepad paper works. The fact that pdawg_shooter gets results with green bar is a good reason to try to find some and try it.

[geargnasher]

The mold I was using is the one I cast for my .30-.30 and I was hoping to use the paper patch to size it up (it drops bullets at .310). But since the bullet needs to be at bore diameter(.313) before patching and then patch it up to groove diameter, ...well, I think I'm going to need a new bullet mold (one that will let me cast and size down to .313). Am I on the right path here?

Nope, you're still confusing the terms BORE and GROOVE. I think .303guy covered it pretty well: Your GROOVE dimension is .313", your BORE dimension will be much less, I'm guessing about .303" or a tad larger as most of these guns run .303-.305" in the bore.

Ideally, I would recommend starting with a boolit in the .304-306" diameter range and patch to at least .314, if not .315". Can't say for sure because we still don't know what yor bore dimension is.

Your .310" boolits will work fine but you will most likely need to size them down another .005" or so.

Gear

[yeahbub]

I'll second most of what I read in the replies. One difference in my technique is that I don't bother with going for a bore dia to bore+.001-.003 before I start patching. I go with the smallest diameter mold of a suitable design, patch and then size to whatever diameter is needed for proper alignment in the throat, usually groove dia+.001. This sizes them .008-.010 in one operation. With good alignment in the sizer, there should be no problem. This works well with alloys up to air cooled wheel weights or so, but harder alloys may pinch through the paper at the driving bands during sizing - in which case, starting with a near-bore diameter boolit is the way to go.

One other point is the use of boolits less than bore diameter being inaccurate, unless I misread that. I routinely patch .313 dia cast boolits with three wraps of drafting vellum for a diameter of .326-.327and sized .325 for use in 8x57. They work well. Recovered specimens show full depth engraving.

[303Guy]

I routinely patch .313 dia cast boolits with three wraps of drafting vellum for a diameter of .326-.327and sized .325 for use in 8x57. They work well. Recovered specimens show full depth engraving.Good to know that, yeahbub. Mind you, vellum is pretty tough paper! (Assuming it's the same as the tracing paper I have). That stuff has been known to survive almost intact into the catch medium - still attached to the boolit!

wgaynor, might I suggest trying out whatever it takes to fill the throat and measuring that and patching to suit. As one starting point anyway. Experimenting with different approaches is fun and if done in a meaningful way one can soon see which is better for that particular gun. The most important thing to remember and strive for is to have fun! I don't know about others but for me it's great to watch someone start out and get it right. I keep checking to see how y'all are progressing.:drinks:

[geargnasher]

I tried under-bore boolits, never had any luck with them personally, unless you call keeping them on a 9x12 target success. That being said, the only thing that proves is that it didn't work in my guns, not that it won't work in anyone elses!

Here's a couple of targets: The one on the left was a boolit that was .002" under bore diameter, the one on the right (far right target) a different boolit of almost identical weight that was .0015" over bore diameter. Both were patched with 100% cotton vellum and same powder:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e0d12903bccd.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1346)http://castboolits.gunloads.com/imagehosting/thum_89094e18ddc30334d.jpg (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/vbimghost.php?do=displayimg&imgid=1427)

Gear

[303Guy]

No arguing with that. Thanks Gear. I did try bore-riders with only the nose section (or part of it - they being tapered) being under bore diameter. They seemed OK but I ran out of time and opportunity to do a proper test. The second time out was real windy, specially closer to the target. Gusty too. That's not to say the wind caused the poor results - just makes it uncertain.

[geargnasher]

Bore riders, that's a different story. In order to get heavier patched boolits to chamber without poking down into the case below the neck, I've used several patched bore-riders as you know in my recent foray into this PPCB thing, so far I've been able to make every single one of them shoot provided the driving bands were larger than bore. The patch on the bore-rider portion usually comes out several thousandths above bore but engraves easily. This seems to be plenty of support for the nose, even at very high velocity.

Gear

[303Guy]

Thanks Gear. You did say so. Mind you, you seem to make most things work!
I had to look a few times at those beautiful groups.:awesome:
It's one of those moments when I say "Yes, it does work!":2_high5:

I can't help but notice your liking for precision - Location: 29˚58’27”N, 99˚12’07”W :mrgreen:
:drinks:

[pdawg_shooter]

Sizing a patched bullet .008 to .010 after patching tends to leave you with a loose patch. NOT good. Better to size to the correct diameter before you apply the patch.

[geargnasher]

Sizing a patched bullet .008 to .010 after patching tends to leave you with a loose patch. NOT good. Better to size to the correct diameter before you apply the patch.

My experience as well, I've tried it several times to avoid buying a special sizer. The other thing I noticed is the patch tends to tear, and after measuring a few slugs that were patched and sized way down and then peeled, the boolits don't size evenly. I shot a few so done in my .30-'06 and had dismal results.

See 303guy, it ain't all roses here either! Pretty much all the things I've been told don't work really don't. Pdawg, every time I do it like you say, it works great!

Gear

[pdawg_shooter]

My experience as well, I've tried it several times to avoid buying a special sizer. The other thing I noticed is the patch tends to tear, and after measuring a few slugs that were patched and sized way down and then peeled, the boolits don't size evenly. I shot a few so done in my .30-'06 and had dismal results.

See 303guy, it ain't all roses here either! Pretty much all the things I've been told don't work really don't. Pdawg, every time I do it like you say, it works great!

Gear

Thanks for the plug gear, believe me when I say I have made every mistake possible patching over 45 years. But I like to think I have learned from every one of them. It is not rocket science but some things work and some dont. I try to keep people from having a bad experience and giving up on patching. Done right you can get the same, or in some cases better, accuracy and velocity as with jacketed bullets.

[yeahbub]

Pdawg,

What sort of paper is your preferred type for patching? I see a number of things people try, but I guess I'm not that adventurous.

I had heard occasionally that sizing .008-.010 resulted in loose patches, but so far that's happened to me only once, when I was cutting patches from the long edge of the drafting vellum. It seems it's already stretched to the max in that dimension and wet-stretching it on left me with no shrink at all and it seemed they couldn't wait to come loose. Cutting them along the narrow edge of the sheet gave me plenty of stretch and they shrink on tightly as they dry and they take the sizing. The paper looks like a layer of white plastic after it's sized and it's difficult to remove. My patching efforts are almost exclusively with .0025 100% rag vellum, so I can't speak to the characteristics of other papers. The only bond I've used with any regularity is some .004 thick paper that printer paper comes wrapped in. I don't size those nearly as much and they've done okay. One sizer with an abrupt entry cone was a problem once, but making the entry more gradual has reduced tearing to almost none.

[geargnasher]

I am with the others here. Size to bore diameter + .001/.0015, patch with 16# paper, (I use green bar printer paper), let dry, lube and size to groove diameter + .001/.003 or as large as will fit the throat. Choose a powder that will give you as near as possible to 100% load density and the velocity you are looking for. The slower powder will help prevent deformation of the bullet under acceleration in the barrel. When possible, an un-sized case will give the best accuracy. That is best used for single loading. Try to load a long enough OCL so the bullet seats in the rifle when chambering.


Pdawg,

What sort of paper is your preferred type for patching? I see a number of things people try, but I guess I'm not that adventurous.

I had heard occasionally that sizing .008-.010 resulted in loose patches, but so far that's happened to me only once, when I was cutting patches from the long edge of the drafting vellum. It seems it's already stretched to the max in that dimension and wet-stretching it on left me with no shrink at all and it seemed they couldn't wait to come loose. Cutting them along the narrow edge of the sheet gave me plenty of stretch and they shrink on tightly as they dry and they take the sizing. The paper looks like a layer of white plastic after it's sized and it's difficult to remove. My patching efforts are almost exclusively with .0025 100% rag vellum, so I can't speak to the characteristics of other papers. The only bond I've used with any regularity is some .004 thick paper that printer paper comes wrapped in. I don't size those nearly as much and they've done okay. One sizer with an abrupt entry cone was a problem once, but making the entry more gradual has reduced tearing to almost none.

Pdawg uses 16lb green bar printer paper for everything. It ends up being about perfect for the rifling depth of modern guns, and is a little tougher than regular copier paper and thus easier to wrap and good for a little more velocity.

Gear

[pdawg_shooter]

Just so everyone here knows, I am NOT paying geargnasher anything. Me thinks he is trying to embarrass me!

[6.5 mike]

All Gear is doing is telling the truth.