A question about fluxing

[mooko]

I would like to ask a serious question. I have cast bullets fo rifles, handguns, and muzzle loaders since about 1969. When I started, I read everything I could find. First, I fluxed with pure beeswax and burned off the fumes. Then, I switched to Marvelux to avoid fumes and smoke. All this was in following the advice of the Lyman cast bullet book and readings in Handloader and American Rifleman. However, now I am finding out that I am out in left field because I don't use sawdust or ground walnut hulls.
So, I followed a lead to LASC to read Glen Frixell's excellent casting handbook. The upshot is that I have some Lizard Litter on the way.
My question is: when did this start? I aparently missed the beginning discussions about using wood for flux.
It's kind of like my question about when did the terms 'push feed' and controlled round feed' surface. They were never terms in use until relatively recently. To me, they smack of elitism. But that's another discussion.

Mike

[frankenfab]

Well I just learned (read, same as you) about it as well. I don't know when it started, but looking back, I can remember from rendering sessions that dried oak leaves seemed to do a really good job of cleaning the melt, better than just wax or motor oil.

So, I have bought in to it, and on the recomendations of others, have ordered myself a box of Pat Marlin's California Flake Flux. I will be using it only in the casting pot.

[JSnover]

I don't think it's a new idea, just a revived discussion. Truth is you can use almost anything. I like wood because it's clean, easy to find, doesn't smoke much.
Dry pine is good because of the pitch. Don't use twigs with the needles still attached. They will cause your pot to bubble. You won't like that.
But if you don't feel like using plant matter you're not alone. Seems like any loob can double as a flux. Use whatever works.

[gyrogearhead]

I don't think it's a new idea, just a revived discussion. Truth is you can use almost anything. I like wood because it's clean, easy to find, doesn't smoke much.
Dry pine is good because of the pitch. Don't use twigs with the needles still attached. They will cause your pot to bubble. You won't like that.
But if you don't feel like using plant matter you're not alone. Seems like any loob can double as a flux. Use whatever works.

I was reading in another thread that Stearic Acid was one of the best fluxes in terms of recovering the most tin from the oxides and returning it to the melt. I'm wondering if mixing Stearic Acid and sawdust together might be even better? Anybody have any experience / ideas about this?

Gerry

[Sonnypie]

I thought using some of the stuff folks use for fluxing alloy was weird.
I come from an Industrial background and fluxes for brazing, silver solder, soldering, and welding NEVER called for organic "debris".

But I have a pail I put my Lizard Litter in for my vibratory tumblers. It works great in those, By the way.

I started using it as my flux media shortly afterwards, and it works great!
First, it is very clean and very consistent.
Second, it is a hardwood byproduct. So it disintegrates very evenly over the alloy.
And Third, it breaks down completely to a very fine ash.
And it has a pleasant aroma. Even my wife likes the smell of it. :o

My bigger vibratory tumbler was dying on me so I moved on to stainless steel tumbling. I hardly ever use the smaller vibratory tumbler since then.
But the media has proven great for a fluxing additive.

[runfiverun]

carborization of lead alloys has been around a long,long,long time.
lazy humans just noticed that fire [oxygen free barrier, what borax provides as it's one good trait] cleaned lead [oxides] pretty good and went with it.
a combination of charcoal [carbon] and an oxygen free barrier is the best way to flux/clean an alloy and return oxides back to the melt.
the carbon also help the alloy bind together.

wait till you find out that elements other than arsenic will do the same thing it does.

[cgtreml]

I thought using some of the stuff folks use for fluxing alloy was weird.
I come from an Industrial background and fluxes for brazing, silver solder, soldering, and welding NEVER called for organic "debris".

But I have a pail I put my Lizard Litter in for my vibratory tumblers. It works great in those, By the way.

I started using it as my flux media shortly afterwards, and it works great!
First, it is very clean and very consistent.
Second, it is a hardwood byproduct. So it disintegrates very evenly over the alloy.
And Third, it breaks down completely to a very fine ash.
And it has a pleasant aroma. Even my wife likes the smell of it. :o

My bigger vibratory tumbler was dying on me so I moved on to stainless steel tumbling. I hardly ever use the smaller vibratory tumbler since then.
But the media has proven great for a fluxing additive.

Do you use new Lizard Litter of do you use it in your tumbler first. Let it loose its effectiveness and then use it as a flux? Let me know and I will try it this week. I am one of those guys that has been using Marvelux for years. Until now.

[1Shirt]

I quit using Marvelux after the first time I tried it probaby 40 years ago. Tried a lot of things over the years to flux. That said, for many years now I just use a pain stur stick free from most hardwares to stur the melt. It chars and fluxes, is fast, and convenient and has all the carbon (I think) needed for fluxing. Just my opinion.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Sonnypie]

Do you use new Lizard Litter of do you use it in your tumbler first. Let it loose its effectiveness and then use it as a flux? Let me know and I will try it this week. I am one of those guys that has been using Marvelux for years. Until now.

No I don't, I use brand new stuff.
Reason being (I brought up the idea once) the waste products in the used media might add to the toxicity of the smoke given off. Heavy metals like brass dust, powder residue, priming compounds, crud and corruption... All good points pointed out by another member here.
Makes sense. You might introduce something into your boolits you wouldn't want.
Imagine abrasive boolits banging down your shiny bore. :mad:

At around $12 for a 10 pound bag, (http://www.petco.com/product/102881/Zilla-Ground-English-Walnut-Shells-Reptile-Bedding.aspx) I chose to use the new stuff. It only takes about an ounce or two each time. Just a nice sprinkle to cover the metal, and a stir.
10 pounds is about 1/2 a 5 gallon bucket.

I like 1shirts idea with paint sticks, too. (Clean ones though.) ;-)

[sqlbullet]

I turned to sawdust and used motor oil because:

The best fluxes seem to be hydro-carbons of one sort or another.

I use bullet lube to lube bullets.

I have no other use for sawdust and used motor oil.

They work well at no additional cost.

I don't use these to flux my casting pot. For that I use crayons broken into small pieces. But for refining lead into ingots, I use whatever carbon waste I have around.

[montana_charlie]

I thought using some of the stuff folks use for fluxing alloy was weird.
I come from an Industrial background and fluxes for brazing, silver solder, soldering, and welding NEVER called for organic "debris".
It seemed weird to you because we don't (really) flux our alloys. We just reduce the oxides.

But, we call it fluxing ...

[P.K.]

I quit using Marvelux after the first time I tried it probaby 40 years ago. Tried a lot of things over the years to flux. That said, for many years now I just use a pain stur stick free from most hardwares to stur the melt. It chars and fluxes, is fast, and convenient and has all the carbon (I think) needed for fluxing. Just my opinion.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

I just got a fistfull from wally world. ;-)

[fredj338]

Do you use new Lizard Litter of do you use it in your tumbler first. Let it loose its effectiveness and then use it as a flux? Let me know and I will try it this week. I am one of those guys that has been using Marvelux for years. Until now.

My only problem with this is used tumble media has a lot of fine lead dust particles in it. Adding that to hot lead may allow them to be carried up in the resulting smoke. So I just won't do it. Pretty easy to get sawdust @ any HD/Lowes for the asking. I have used a lto fo stuff, including Marvelux & nothing works better than sawdust IMO.

[Defcon-One]

I use Saw Dust from white pine, like from 2x4's that I cut myself. It is clean, smells good and does a great job. My second best flux is paraffin wax from old burned down candle stubs. Both are of no other use to me, so it makes sense to flux with them.

The saw dust works the best though, especially in the really big smelting pots of dirty Wheel Weights. Besides, both are FREE.

[Sonnypie]

It seemed weird to you because we don't (really) flux our alloys. We just reduce the oxides.

But, we call it fluxing ...

What I had in mind, Charlie, is who'd a thunk a handful of dried leaves thrown in a pot of molten alloy would be a good thing to do?

I'd bet the next guy got some wet leaves and the Tinsel Fairy was discovered. :lol:

[WHITETAIL]

I started using sawdust about 2 years ago
and have never look back.
You guys are the best!
I have a buddy who is a cabinet maker.
And he gives me all the sawdust I can use.
Plus most of it is oak.:drinks:

[geargnasher]

It seemed weird to you because we don't (really) flux our alloys. We just reduce the oxides.

But, we call it fluxing ...

Not entirely correct, if you mean we boolit casters. We boolit casters that use sawdust or similar actually ARE fluxing the alloy. Those only using reducing agents such as wax/grease/oil are only reducing oxides.

Gear

[TNFrank]

I've always just used a small bit of paraffin wax from a candle stirred into the mix. You can use a bic lighter to ignite the smoke that's given off so it'll not fill the room your in. Just be careful not to catch anything on fire.
I've also tried borax but it's been a while and I can't remember why I quit using it. Never heard of using wood, sounds interesting, may need to read up on it.

[geargnasher]

TNFrank, here's a good start on your reading: http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

Gear

[TNFrank]

TNFrank, here's a good start on your reading: http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

Gear

Excellent read. Now I remember where all that black gunk on my skimming spoon came from.
"but too much can cause problems by generating excessive amounts of this molasses-like glass that sticks to the ladle"
and why I stopped using borax.:wink:

[Markbo]

THis is a serious question because I have a LOT to learn... used motor oil brought up a question.. .is used Synthetic motor oil OK?

[geargnasher]

I wouldn't use used engine oil of any type myself, there are such bette things available for free.

One of my issues with used engine oil is the heavy metal content from bearings. Probably not a risk if you use it occasionally, but daily exposure (like in my job) can and does cause health problems due to cadium and cobalt poisoning.

Gear

[TNFrank]

I know we all cast boolits to try and save a few bucks but for gosh sake, USED motor oil. [smilie=b: I mean I'm cheap but I'll at least spend a buck or two on some Gulf Wax for fluxing. LOL.

[nanuk]

awhile back, I was chatting with a Battery Operator in the oilfields back home.

he said I could have a 45gal barrel of the parrafins they scrape off their pigs, all I had to do was bring a replacement barrel.

this stuff would be a mix of all the waxes and heavy crude oil that comes out of the pipes....

I thought it would make a good product to "Flux/Reduce" an alloy. and 45gal of the stuff would last quite awhile

[Sonnypie]

I won't use petroleum products in my melt.
I tried wax once. I was not impressed with the resultant bonfire that erupted.
So I stick with simple ground walnut shells.

I like lazy wood smoke and the aroma, over volatile dinosaur poop squeezins. ;-)

You fellers realize that the next thing you know, the EPA is going to want catalytic converters on your furnace's. [smilie=1::roll:

[lwknight]

THis is a serious question because I have a LOT to learn... used motor oil brought up a question.. .is used Synthetic motor oil OK?

It has been stated in the past by a petro engineer on this forum that synthetic oil is just oil that has been synthesized to have all the molecule chains the same length. Also the chains can be tailored to resist breaking down from acids created in the combustion of fuels. Synthetic oil is still just oil. Some formulas may not burn as easily as others though.