Back to the range .475 BFR

[subsonic]

Shot about 30rds the other day, 21rds today.

About 10rds in shooting the Lee boolit and load, accuracy went away and the bore looked like a lead pipe. See pic below for the pile of lead I scraped out with the chore boy and brush.

BUT, even with the leading, this thing still outshot my next best handgun!

I also learned a lesson about tightening rings. I increased the torque from 15 to 25 inlb on the top screws only. My POI moved about 7moa right and 3moa down. I didn't plan on re-zeroing, just checking drop and maybe sighting a little high at 50yds. I got it "close enough" for now, but I hope I can get out again to shoot some more before deer season opens Saturday.

My UD30 seemed to be 1moa clicks, not 1/2moa, but I didn't get to really test it with just 20rds.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/a762c128.jpg

[98Redline]

You have enough lead there to cast yourself another boolit :kidding:

[mellonhead]

I had the same issue with the LEE 400 grainer. I had much better results with the RCBS 475-400-SWC. I still use a slightly altered version of the RCBS mold in my 475.

Toby

[tek4260]

Did you get in on Zeus's group buy on the HP?

[saz]

HOLY ****! And it still shot good? That is a lot of lead man- my 1911 hasnt even looked that bad after a few hundred rounds. But I have to ask, is that a pill bottle on the end of your ultradot? If so, why?

[subsonic]

Yes, a pill bottle. To keep solvent off the lens while cleaning. Learned that lesson a long time ago.
Haven't picked up scope covers yet, and the pill bottle fit.

No, didn't get in on the group buy. Out of play money right now. The Lee will work for now. I'll experiment with lube and try a larger size, but for now I should be able to kill several deer before the leading is bad enough to make me miss one :lol:

[subsonic]

Oh, and get this: lube was just about dripping off the muzzle from the lube star!

[mellonhead]

If your interested in trying my version of the RCBS PM me your address and I'll get some headed your way.

Toby

[btroj]

Oh, and get this: lube was just about dripping off the muzzle from the lube star!

Which shows how little a lube star really means!
If I had a load that left that. Uh lead but shot well for 25 to 50 rounds then I woul use it for hunting with no problems. If you need more than a couple rounds in the field then you have bigger troubles than leading.

Enjoy your hunt.

[44man]

I see the problem right away! You have the poor gun laying on some GLOCK papers. :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:
I see you are finding out about the adjustments. That can't be helped with any of the red dots. Not enough meat in the scopes and the tiny clicks just can't get smaller.
All scope adjustments are based on thread pitch, not where the pad touches the tube. The amount can vary over the whole range.
When I sight in, I consider it "fiddle" time.

[subsonic]

Yes, that glock cleaning pad is kind-of hokey, but it does keep the guns from getting scratched up on the bench. And I have to admit to really liking my old G20...

After hunting season I'm going to do some serious testing of the adjustments - maybe after I get a better mould that makes a boolit that will hang in there for more than 30-40rds before leading up and reducing accuracy.

Even my worst "leaded up" groups were within 6moa, 3" @ 50/6" @ 100. Still good enough to kill a deer, but not leaving much room for error @ 100yd.

[44man]

I had to take a break because friends came to shoot yesterday. I had to mount a scope on a Marlin 30-30 and sight it. I took the .500 JRH down too. Each friend was only good for ONE shot! :mrgreen:
I took some cans down at 100 and I don't know what it is but there is a cloud of something blown from the cans.
One had never shot a revolver but I had him hitting stuff at 100 yards off hand with Dave's SRH. But he flinched with Dave's BH .41. Empty chambers here and there in the SRH did not make him move at all but the .41 shook him.
I just had my coffee, need to clean the gutters. Carol came home and told me it is pouring down rain. Now what do I do?

[Whitworth]

Relax Jim.....put your feet up! The work's not going anywhere......:mrgreen:

[44man]

Relax Jim.....put your feet up! The work's not going anywhere......:mrgreen:
Not easy. Dave brought lead to cast some 310 gr from the Lee mold. He made a bunch and then the handle pin fell out. He was confused until I told him it was OK, I will fix it. Now I have to make him more boolits with his lead.
Did you know it is Thursday? I just read the Sunday funnies a few seconds ago. Or is it Fri, darn, I don't know!

[subsonic]

I can't imagine that a JRH is much more than the .475, both with full power loads. They both shoot about the same weight boolit at the same speed. Maybe less pressure in the JRH would make preceived recoil even less. I find the recoil with these BFR's is mostly mental because the gun moves so much and makes a decent amount of noise, but your hand really doesn't get beat too much compared to my lighter weight .44 and .45 stuff. But it also seems to be very subjective. I fired one off with a more "relaxed" arm and grip and still don't see how the short cylinder guns can ever get near your head or face. Now maybe the .500S&W or a .45-70 or .450 could with a redlined load... but even then I doubt it? I think my .475 BFR is easier to shoot without flinching than my Bisley .45 is, but haven't figured out why.

I'm back to the range for one last "tune-up" on the Ultra-Dot this evening. Hope the range isn't too much of a Zoo 2 days before season opens...

Still too much to do over here too! Haven't even bought tags yet!

Good luck with the roof.

[subsonic]

How do you guys sight your .475s for hunting? I was thinking sighting at the top of the dot at 50yds would put me pretty close to the bottom of the dot at 100yds, but ran out of ammo and had leading last time before I could test it.

[98Redline]

I would think that the 475 shooting a 400gr SWC type bullet (BC .221) running 1300fps or so with a 100 yard zero should have a point blank range of like 110 or so yards.

Sight in 2.75" high at 50 and you should be good to go.

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy
0 1300 -0.6 0 0 1220
20 1254 1.41 0.52 0.05 1135
40 1214 2.54 1.92 0.1 1064
60 1177 2.72 4.27 0.15 1000
80 1144 1.9 7.62 0.2 944
100 1114 0 12.04 0.25 896
120 1087 -3.02 17.59 0.31 853

[Whitworth]

How do you guys sight your .475s for hunting? I was thinking sighting at the top of the dot at 50yds would put me pretty close to the bottom of the dot at 100yds, but ran out of ammo and had leading last time before I could test it.

Inch or so high at 50 yards and pretty much dead on at 75 yards.

[subsonic]

Here's todays targets. The first trio were at 50yds. The 3rd target has a 2clicks sight adjustment right and then 2 clicks left. The single target is 100yds and was the fourth target shot. Leading was noticeable after 15rds. Shot 25 rds total. Didn't retreive the target with the last 5 shots at 75 yds, but leading was bad and the group had 2 shots off the paper. Overall, accuracy was not as good as the last time out.
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/d4163c3a.jpg
http://i1179.photobucket.com/albums/x386/Dennis_Doza/f5731843.jpg

[44man]

The leading baffles me! I think and hope it smooths up.

[subsonic]

I agree. I think I didn't get all of the lead out last time and that is why it leaded faster and was not as accurate.

I'm begining to wonder if I don't have a bad batch of LBT blue soft or if my alloy is low on tin or something. Just about all of my guns are leading lately, even ones that never did before. I cannot think of anything I have changed. I even tried a different cleaning solvent. No more range time, so this has to be good enough to hunt with. I have hunted with worse.

[saz]

Have you thought about firelapping?

[subsonic]

Have you thought about firelapping?

I would probably sell it first.

The whole point of buying this thing was that it is dimensionally "right" and has a hand lapped bore.

I haven't shot enough of Jim(44man)s boolits in a row to see if they lead, but that is the next step after hunting season. I only have 22 left from the box he generously sent me, and I'm keeping 2 as samples in case I make a mould.

Mellonhead is sending me some of his RCBS copies to try too. Gotta at least troubleshoot it and give it a chance. I've seen that the accuracy is there.

[44man]

I have a suspicion it is the lead alloy. I have had that long ago with a batch of WW's. It might have been depleted of tin so the antimony was not in alloy.
We really can blame the alloy for bad leading because we have no idea what we have unless we buy a specific alloy. Even some of those will not be right for all applications.
I don't trust lead! :twisted:

[subsonic]

Well, I have some bar solder, and I only have 5 left of the current batch, and hopefully tomorrow morning I will have only 4 left.

[44man]

I hate to buy tin! [smilie=s:
I have a friend in town that gathers scrap for extra money. You will not believe the junk he has hauled away for me, he just took the two water tanks too. He brought me a big pile of 50-50 lead, tin sticks and a 75# ingot of stereo type. He said give him $5! :bigsmyl2:
Another friend gave me several hundred pounds of cable sheathing so I must have 800# of pure and about 500# of WW ingots.
Ask why I shoot cast. [smilie=l: Well, of course there is nothing better anyway.

[saz]

I hate to buy tin! [smilie=s:
I have a friend in town that gathers scrap for extra money. You will not believe the junk he has hauled away for me, he just took the two water tanks too. He brought me a big pile of 50-50 lead, tin sticks and a 75# ingot of stereo type. He said give him $5! :bigsmyl2:
Another friend gave me several hundred pounds of cable sheathing so I must have 800# of pure and about 500# of WW ingots.
Ask why I shoot cast. [smilie=l: Well, of course there is nothing better anyway.

WOW! I cannot find any scrap tin up here. Wish I could. I do have a VERY steady supply of WW's though.

[Frank]

Just buy silver soldier. 4" should take care of a pot, so I was told. I'm guilty I was adding more of it in there. Maybe a foot.

[doghawg]

My .475 BFR does well with the 400 gr. RCBS (412 gr. as cast) over 15 gr. of HS6. Velocity is right at 1100 fps and no leading... sized to .476" and lubed with BAC. The BHN is 14. I've tried harder bullets going faster and got leading and more recoil than I could pretend to enjoy. The gun will average 1 1/2" at 50 yards and is a little high at 50 and on at 75.
In my opinion if you're trying for 1300 fps from a plain base bullet everything has to be exactly right.

[Old Caster]

Frank,
Silver solder is something that takes almost as much heat as brazing does to melt. It is used to connect things like copper, brass, or steel and the metal has to be fairly red to get the silver solder to melt. You are talking about regular solder that looks a silver color. Actual silver solder is a sort of bronze color and won't come close to melting in a lead pot.

If you guys are having a hard time finding tin for a good price, check garage sales because a lot of pewter things out there are available at a good price. Be careful though because some things you might think are tin(pewter) are actually aluminum.

[Frank]

Old Caster:

Frank,
Silver solder is something that takes almost as much heat as brazing does to melt. It is used to connect things like copper, brass, or steel and the metal has to be fairly red to get the silver solder to melt. You are talking about regular solder that looks a silver color. Actual silver solder is a sort of bronze color and won't come close to melting in a lead pot.
I see. I was just referring to Oatey brand "Silver" Solder, or Lead Free Solder. It melts at 412-450 'F, from Home Depot. It's taken care of tin needs for 3 20# pots and I've hardly used the roll.

[subsonic]

Well, it was good enough. Took a button buck yesterday evening (i'm not a trophy hunter! I shoot them to eat them). This marks 3 new experiences for me. First kill with cast, first deer with a handgun, and first deer since I started hunting again a few years ago. I hunted until I was 16, then got interested in cars and stopped hunting until just a few years ago (5years?) when my wife decided she wanted me to take her hunting.

[44man]

Well, it was good enough. Took a button buck yesterday evening (i'm not a trophy hunter! I shoot them to eat them). This marks 3 new experiences for me. First kill with cast, first deer with a handgun, and first deer since I started hunting again a few years ago. I hunted until I was 16, then got interested in cars and stopped hunting until just a few years ago (5years?) when my wife decided she wanted me to take her hunting.
Very good, tell us how the deer reacted and how good the boolit worked.
My first archery deer this season was a young doe, great meat. I just have not been able to get back out. I can't even get to casting, I am out of all kinds of boolits.
First deer with a revolver! You are now where you will never leave, it is too much fun. :D

[Old Caster]

Good Job Subsonic, There is still time for several more this year. Don't wait until you are too old to enjoy it. How about the Mrs. Did she go too. -- Bill --

[subsonic]

Wife and son struck out but were there. I will not use this lee 400gr again. I have never seen anything like what happened. This small deer was walking broadside up a hill about 20 yd away. I rested both hands on one knee and waited for it to walk into the dot and squeezed. This is a long story from here, so I will finish it later on the pc where I can type instead of the phone.

[subsonic]

Let me preface this by saying that I think most people would not post this story. I am posting it only for the benefit of others that may try to use this boolit, and also as a learning experience for others in similar situations.

So I was sitting against a tree, facing into the wind on the side of a hill at darn near 3:45 yesterday. In front of me, the hillside rose from left to right. I was thinking "if something happens, it needs to happen quick or I'm going to be working in the dark". Sunset was at 4:52 here yesterday and full dark comes by 5:30 this time of year. A small deer (maybe 85lb) started climbing the hill from left to right. He was moving uphill broadside to me. I put the ultra-dot on a spot in front of him and waited for him to walk into the dot and squeezed when the dot was right behind his right leg, 1/3rd of the way up. At the shot, he picked up the pace, climbed the hill and made a right running just below the crest of the hill past me. I didn't see blood coming out or any sign of a good hit. Thinking I either shot too low or shot under him, and not wanting a long recovery after dark, again I put the dot ahead and "trapped" him again, holding for the same spot. At the second shot he began to limp and stumble. I figured he would pile up quickly, but continued to hear leaves crunching behind me for a long time. I waited my 30 minutes and decided that I should try to find my deer before dark. I found blood at the sight of the first shot. Not a LOT of blood, but if you can imagine someone dipping a 3" paint brush and flicking it on the ground, about that much in a good line. At the sight of the second shot I found some hair, but the blood didn't increase. I followed the blood trail about 60yds where it entered a cedar thicket. At that point the blood thinned out, but I found a shard of rib. Figured that was a good sign. A few steps into the thicket and no more blood. Now I start to circle in the thicket. No deer. Stop and call on the cell (no answer) and text my friend and wife both to bring my extra batteries and and flashlight and to come help. Waited about 10 minutes and do not see them coming, so I went back to circling. Circling circling, stomping around in a relatively small area. Finally holster the BFR and try calling again. Still no answer. It's getting dark. Not looking good. So I go back to where the blood ran out and started walking in a straight line following the direction the blood had lead. I end up in a small stand of cedars. Keep looking in the tall grass under the ceders for blood. No deer, no blood. This is probably a little over 100yds from where the first shot hit. Suddenly a deer bolts from under a tree in the tall grass. I think "was that THE deer, or just A deer?" So I look under the tree for blood. Found blood, but not a lot. Now I'm wondering *** because it has been at least 45 minutes and the deer is still able to run? So I draw the BFR, turn on the ultra-dot and stomp around some more. I find the deer under another tree on the edge of the dry creekbed that runs along this property. There is about a 10ft drop from the edge down into the creekbed. The deer's head is up, and at this point I'm thinking headshot - be done with it already, but as I start to bring the BFR up, I realize there is a house in the distance in line with the deer. This is the edge of the property I lease, and I know it's there. So now I'm thinking "what now?" and the deer gets up and runs to my left (no longer in line with the house). I cock the hammer and try to snap shoot to put an end to the chase. The deer falls and crawls under another tree on the edge of the creekbank making a gurgling sound. I'm thinking "finally!" Nope. He crawls with his front legs off the edge and down into the creekbed. I'm standing there stunned. Now remember, this is a yearling button buck, maybe 85lb. I look over the edge and there lays the deer. Chest still heaving. He picks his head up and looks up at me. I put the dot on his head and remember that my wife needs a skull for teaching wildlife ID, then move it to where his spine enters the back of his head. Now his neck is bent around so he can look up, almost vertical. I fire the 4th shot from the .475 and he goes limp, followed by some afterkicks.

So I walk around until I can get down into the creekbed. It's getting dark and it's 65deg outside, so despite my curiosity as to what happened, I'm thinking "field dress ASAP before it's all the way dark". I find 2 holes on the side of the deer that was facing me when I fired the first two shots. One between the second to last and 3rd to last rib about 1/3 of the way up (about 3" behind where I was aiming) and another at the same elevation, but between the first hole and his rear hip (gut). His left rear leg is shot in-two at the knee, and those are the only obvious holes at that point. No pass through.

I get the deer gutted (what a mess). Meanwhile wonder what happened and how this little deer didn't have holes on both sides. I butchered him today and found some weird stuff.

3 boolits made 90deg turns in the deer. 3 boolits grabbed big wads of hair and shoved them into the meat. The way I think it all happened, but I'm not sure what boolit ended up where on the two first shots: The first boolit was the one in the ribs. I should have moved the gun WITH the deer when I shot, instead of trapping him. By the time I squeezed the trigger and fired, the deer was further ahead. On the 2nd shot, he was further ahead because he was going faster. Next time I have a moving deer, I'm making a noise to make him stop. I'm also going to rig up something to practice moving targets with a handgun.

The 3rd (snap shot on leaving deer) boolit was the one that blew his left rear leg in two at the knee. The fourth boolit went down his neck.

The first boolit and second boolit both exited the REAR of the deer. Remember he was broadside for both shots? One came out the left ham under the ball and socket, the other broke his right rear leg above the knee and exited there. I found big balls of hair at both exits. The 3rd shot hit nothing but his left rear knee and blew out the joint. The 4th shot went down the deers neck, made a right turn, and ended up blowing up left front knee. Found ANOTHER big ball of hair there at the exit and some lead shards. I assume the shards were were the boolit hit the rocks in the creekbed under the deer - as I also found pieces of rock in the deer there.

Why did 3 boolits make right angle turns immediately after entering this deer? The first shot cut the liver, made a turn and traveled through the gut to exit the rear. I think this would have been a killer right there had it gone straight through destroying the liver and opening up a big bleed, but that's not what happened. I thought 5 shots would be plenty. Only had 1 left!

:sad::shock:

I realize that had the first shot been about 3" further forward, things would have been different, but I still would have had a mess had it exited the rear like it did.

Has anybody else had this happen with this boolit? Or any others?

[44man]

First mistake is shooting behind the shoulder on a moving deer. Always lead the deer even if walking, your dot should have been at the front of the shoulder. I have dropped many deer walking or on a dead run and each takes a different lead depending on speed.
I have dropped deer running in heavy brush by picking an opening ahead, aim into it and when the deer enters the edge of the scope, shoot. Never wait for the deer to reach the dot.
Now the boolit! It is a good one. My friend had 2 LBT, WLNGC, 320 gr boolits turn 90* last season. He recovered both and the side of the nose was disrupted on one side from bone. That turned them. I use harder lead then the LBT so nothing ruins the nose. All of my boolits track straight.
The next best is even expansion so you get a real mushroom. Just wiping the nose on one side can change the path.
Now the hits! Gut shot deer will not bleed much, holes get plugged. Hit too far back in the lungs does little damage and even a liver shot deer can go a long way. A shot in the liver is very painful so they walk a straight line. Strange there is little blood, it stays inside. Less pressure or something.
You had bad hits and side nose damage on the boolits, even a rib will do it.
Don't give up, you still have the deer and have all the credit I can give you for not giving up.
It was not the boolit design or the gun, it was circumstances.
I know I told everyone about the boob that made a bad shot on a small doe with a 12 ga slug. He is a boob because he was not allowed to shoot a doe! He tracked it in the snow and kept shooting her until shot 11 kept her down. The deer was a RAG. 10# of meat left with a lot of work! :bigsmyl2:
Deer are tough critters but one 12 ga slug should kill anything. :holysheep

[subsonic]

How would you explain the gut shot that turned? No bones between the ribs and hip.

[saz]

I always take a shoulder shot on moving deer. If you crush a shoulder bone (on or offside depending on the angle of the critter), you will usually anchor him right there, and if he still gets up to run after that you should be able to do a follow up lung/heart shot.

I have had muzzleloader boolits turn before. Always happens if you just scrape one side of the boolit on a bone- ribs are horrible for that.

[saz]

BTW, congratulations on your deer! Any meat in the freezer is ALWAYS a trophy!

[subsonic]

Thanks for the congrats. Headed back out with the wife. Taking my Bisley with 300gr WFNGC, but don't plan to shoot anything. Mostly just going with her. I'm saving this other tag for muzzleloader season, but it never hurts to be prepared.

I definitely hit the edge of a rib.

What about the wads of hair the boolits were shoving?

[saz]

I guess I have never noticed hair in the exit hole. Makes sense though, big meplat and deer hair is pretty tough.

[44man]

How would you explain the gut shot that turned? No bones between the ribs and hip.
A rib, that's all.
I shot a huge buck in Ohio with a crossbow. Perfect quartering shot. The arrow glanced off one rib, hit the next and the arrow whipped around and smacked him on the shoulder. He ran off with the arrow head just under the skin, hanging straight down. Them things are tough.
One other thing that can happen is thinking the deer is full broadside when it actually isn't. A slight angle will not be seen. The deer can also move from trigger break to the boolit getting to it.
Don't be hard on yourself, you used all ethics and got the deer. Things will get better but you need a pat on the back! [smilie=s: I can't say a bad thing and don't want you to fuss over it.

[tek4260]

I had somewhat disappointing results from my 475 and 480 on deer using the 400gr Lee. In all honesty, the best performing load was a 45 Colt loaded with 265 Cast Performance WFN's over 20gr of H-110. Can't explain why other than the fact that the deer were at 40 yards and under, where all my hotter loads were pushing 100 yards.
Of course I am loaded with Mihec HP's in my 44 and 45 and my 475 and 480 will be loaded with them as well as soon as I get off my lazy rear end and cast some. I have high hopes for them. I thought I'd get to try one Thursday morning, but all I saw was an 8pt that came within 5 yards of my stand, but alas it was doe only.

I don't know why you weren't getting complete penetration though.

[subsonic]

Tek, do you mind sharing what happened with your 400gr Lees?

[tek4260]

Well I didn't recover any, but they just didn't have the "smack down" I thought they should. I have only taken a 1 each with the 475 and 480, and they didn't do as well as my 45. Of course 1 deer each is nothing to compare, and I have only taken around 10 with a handgun overall.

I guess I was expecting more. Maybe with the HP's I can dump some more of the energy in the deer instead of shooting thru the deer then thru the 14" tree behind it.

[bearcove]

Had a thought about the leading. Did you buy this gun new? Most of my pistols have had 1000's of rounds through them, in that there have been a lot of jacketed. They are well broken in.

Maybe you are trying to push too hard with a green barrel.

I used to shoot 38 wadcutters by the thousands through my .357 mag BH. 38 spec vel 900fps. When I started pushing SWC's harder it was well broken in and NO leading problem. My new guns aren't as forgiving.

[41 mag fan]

Here's one maybe 44man can shed some light on. Several yrs ago ,I went strictly pistol for deer. I've killed so many in my life, that the thrill was gone, whether it be with slug or bow. So I started on the pistols, open sights.

First few years I used the 44mag. Had it loaded hot with H110 and the 240gr Speer semi jacketed hollow points. Best accuracy I could get out of my old Bisley. Had several deer, just like subsonics, not gut shot, just not the damage needed to get a quick kill. Now if i took them thru the front brisket...it mushed lungs, heart before stopping, or exiting out behind the sternum.

Finally I decided to try my 41mag BH. The loads I used were mid range using AA9 and 210 gr Sierras. I believe the same as my Speers, semi jacketed hollow points.

Every deer I took with this pistol ,it literally devastated on the inside. Good mushrooms, on the ones that stayed in, the exit wound were really good size. When I took lungs or heart, there was nothing but chunks left.


But the question I've got and wondering is, maybe the size of the bullet from the 475 & 480 combined with the FPS is it going too fast for the boolit to really open up and do major damage on the inside of something like a deer that is medium sized game?

I was planning on this year, but it'll be next year, I was planning on using my 480 or 500. Heck by then I'm liable to have the 475 and 460 also.

[44man]

I have taken many deer with the .475, even with the Lee boolit cast hard. I mostly use my almost WFN 420 gr. It is just short of a full WFN. I am right at 1329 FPS. Many deer have just dropped without a kick. Those that run are blind and smash into trees and brush piles to the point I fear they will run into me! They never run a trail, they are out of it. Not a single deer has gone out of sight or I heard them crash close.
It is where they are hit, nothing else matters. Just a little off can mean trouble. We just do not have the energy of a rifle.
But let me tell you something very important. I find at least a dozen deer on one property alone during gun season shot with rifles and lost. A neighbor uses a 7mm mag and loses deer every season. I have had to help him all the time and one went a mile with no blood trail. I knew where the deer was headed and we found it. The hole in the deer was large enough to stick your head in.
Then I have shot four deer that had 6" of arrow and broad heads in the chest, healed up. I am deathly afraid to put my hands in deer until I check them.
Every hunter on earth will lose animals, there is nothing you can do.
Something else important. Mangled meat with torn edges will seal fast and stop bleeding but a clean cut like a razor will not seal fast You can actually have too much power.
All in all the archer and revolver hunters will lose less animals then most rifle hunters because they are more careful to place the shot. Rifle hunters think energy works no matter where the animal is hit.
If you hunt, it is going to happen no matter what you shoot. It hurts and as long as you try your best to find the animal, you have to let it go.
I would rather someone tell about a loss then to claim otherwise.
It is a matter of inches only. Darn it, sometimes it is 1/2".
I am a hunter and understand. If you lose a deer, etc, I am going to be the last person on earth to rant on you or tell you what you should have done, nobody is that good. I only try to help but I am not perfect either. For some reason I can shoot running deer with an automatic lead without thinking and have dropped deer on a full run at 125 yards with muzzle loaders. I actually hit deer on the move easier then a standing deer. I don't think I shake with a lead like I do when trying to hold still. But there is no thought, it is automatic. That is something I can't pass on. Maybe it is from all the years I hunted rabbits, grouse, quail, pheasants and ducks.
I never stop a deer with noise, I hit better if the deer is walking. Smooth gun movement is easier then getting rid of shakes on a still target.

[Old Caster]

I think shooting when moving steady is easier than standing still because you don't have to worry about compensating for wobble. As long as the deer runs smooth and isn't hopping running shots aren't that bad.
Subsonic, when hunting, things don't always go as planned and you only get that one shot. It isn't like a person shooting 8 groups and showing off only the best one. You got your deer and have a lot of season left to go some more. My son just got back empty handed but he was hunting on public ground up by Mark Twain and said he probably won't do that again.

[subsonic]

I will hunt again this weekend with my family and a good friend. I'm probably taking the Bisley mentioned above. I'm out of boolits for the .475 and just don't want to give that Lee boolit another shot right now anyway. I am tempted to load up a few of Jim's 420grvboolits since they shoot REALLY close to the same POI @50 and I don't have time to get to the range for re-sighting.

But if I shoot one this weekend, I am out of tags for muzzleloader season....

[44man]

Don't you hate that limited tag stuff? I wish you lived here. I went through the game regulations and for the life of me I can't figure the total we can get, it goes on and on.
We can get 3 with a bow, 2 bucks in gun season plus doe because we can shoot doe in buck season plus during an additional doe season and that limit is 4. Then ML season is 2 more. So it looks like 11 deer.
Best of all after age 65 or if your own land is hunted, we don't need a license. All we have to do is check the deer. I have to just put a piece of paper on them before moving them. Just my name and date. My hunting is FREE!
I had the little dogs out this morning and the little woods next to my yard was full of deer.
Roads are full of red splashes.
Now you know why my friends and I can do actual boolit testing! :mrgreen:
Bow season opens for a week in Sept, then again in Oct and stays open until Dec 31st. We have an early ML season in Sept too.
What is also great is my neighbors let me bring any friends with me and there is my woods too. I never have to ask, just go in.

[subsonic]

There are northern counties where you can take more, but the leases are $$ up there.
Other than archery, just 2 deer total where I hunt for both ML and modern firearms. One any deer tag and one antlerless only.

[white eagle]

I can shoot 3 deer with a gun 2 with a bow
during the doe antlerless season tags are unlimited
I don't shoot as many deer as they want
do not believe their claims of deer densities
take what I need thats all I ever do
chasing tags is greed

[44man]

I can shoot 3 deer with a gun 2 with a bow
during the doe antlerless season tags are unlimited
I don't shoot as many deer as they want
do not believe their claims of deer densities
take what I need thats all I ever do
chasing tags is greed
Depends on what you have. I give my neighbors deer, they even help butcher and wrap. I quit when everyone has meat. I keep two for myself. Most years that will be six.
Each year we see more and more deer and damage has increased. It is like the pig bomb.
If I could not make use of the meat, I would only take two, all I can use but I feed others. Not a speck of waste no matter.
Yet it is getting out of hand and if I drive to a friends community after a snow, there will be 50 or more deer in the roads. They are in the yards eating all the shrubs and bushes. They do not have enough to eat.
There are farmers with damage tags that pile hundreds of deer back in the woods to rot.
How is that GREED? Land can only support so many deer. Crops are destroyed.
I have been here 25 years and every year has shown many more deer. The herd is out of control.

[subsonic]

Right. There is a reason they issue that many tags, and it's not to make money.