My home made 45 cal swaging dies.

[stealthshooter]

I spent a couple hours with my drill press and dremel tool yesterday. I built a core seating die and a nose forming die with a round nose punch and a hollow point punch. The bullets in the picture were made with my dies. The hollow point weighs 330 grains and the round nose weighs 360 grains. I'm pretty happy with them :redneck:


http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab278/shayn8103/IMG_20111108_133058.jpg

[Buckshot]

.................Dang! How do ya cut threads and knurl, let alone bore using a drill press!!!????[smilie=1: :drinks:

................Buckshot

[alfloyd]

He is making them out of reloading sizing and seat dies.
That is what was shown in another post.

Lafaun

[stealthshooter]

Yep I just redNecked these ones together! I won't be doing anything fancy until I get my lathe and learn how to use it LOL

[Buckshot]

He is making them out of reloading sizing and seat dies.
That is what was shown in another post.

Lafaun

............I figured. Just a friendly poking in the ribs to get a laugh 8-)

..............Buckshot

[Whiterabbit]

very, very interesting. Can you talk a bit about how you put them together from start to finish? Incredible what can be done with relatively simple tools using ingenuity.

[cgtreml]

very, very interesting. Can you talk a bit about how you put them together from start to finish? Incredible what can be done with relatively simple tools using ingenuity.

I agree. I'm not a machinist but I would give it a try. If you have time to describe your project that would be great.

[danr]

if you guys really wanted to make them easily and cheaply, go to leeprecision.com and buy a die body for around $15.. its very simple to adapt reloading dies into swage dies. the key is the shoulder size of the reloading die should be close to the caliber of bullet your attempting to make.. you can pretty much make any pistol caliber projectile this way..

here is quick list of what reloading dies can be used for pistol projectiles.


45 ACP (.451)
280 remington (.441) 17-30
270 winchester (.441) 17-30
25-06 remington (.441) 17-30
**** 243 winchester (.454) 20 sizing die.

44 mag (.430)
257 roberts (.429) 20-45 lee (.431)
244 remington (.429) 26 lee (.431)

40 SW (.400)
**** 220 swift (.402) 21 lee (.406)

38 Spl & 357 (.357) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23 lee(.358)
**** 222 remington (.357) 23
223 remington (.354) 23 sizing die (.351) seat (.358)
17 remington (.356) 23 lee(.358)

9mm (.355) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23
222 remington (.357) 23b
**** 17 remington (.356) 23
223 remington (.354) 23

380 acp (.355) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23
222 remington (.357) 23
17 remington (.356) 23
223 remington (.354) 23

i found that the 17 remington makes a great bullet for anything lower than 357.. compared to the other calibers, the 17 has a munch better nose.

also, there may be other calibers that could be used.. but this should get anyone who is interested going..

thanks,
Dan

[par0thead151]

ok, i am very interested. how do they shoot?
how long does it take to make them?
how much for all the hardware required?

[sly mantis]

So do you just need a seating die for this to work?
ie. if i got a lee 220 swift seating die, could i swage 40s&w bullets from 9mm brass? would anything else be needed?

[Wayne Smith]

if you guys really wanted to make them easily and cheaply, go to leeprecision.com and buy a die body for around $15.. its very simple to adapt reloading dies into swage dies. the key is the shoulder size of the reloading die should be close to the caliber of bullet your attempting to make.. you can pretty much make any pistol caliber projectile this way..

here is quick list of what reloading dies can be used for pistol projectiles.


45 ACP (.451)
280 remington (.441) 17-30
270 winchester (.441) 17-30
25-06 remington (.441) 17-30
**** 243 winchester (.454) 20 sizing die.

44 mag (.430)
257 roberts (.429) 20-45 lee (.431)
244 remington (.429) 26 lee (.431)

40 SW (.400)
**** 220 swift (.402) 21 lee (.406)

38 Spl & 357 (.357) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23 lee(.358)
**** 222 remington (.357) 23
223 remington (.354) 23 sizing die (.351) seat (.358)
17 remington (.356) 23 lee(.358)

9mm (.355) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23
222 remington (.357) 23b
**** 17 remington (.356) 23
223 remington (.354) 23

380 acp (.355) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23
222 remington (.357) 23
17 remington (.356) 23
223 remington (.354) 23

i found that the 17 remington makes a great bullet for anything lower than 357.. compared to the other calibers, the 17 has a munch better nose.

also, there may be other calibers that could be used.. but this should get anyone who is interested going..

thanks,
Dan

Dan, I appreciate the thought. Can you expand a little? What are the numbers after the parentheses? I fail to see how using a die of .441 will produce a bullet of .451? or are these a series of dies needed? This list just creates more questions in my mind. All I have done so far is use a set of Herter's dies to make 44 cal. half jackets. Using these Lee dies what goes into the shell holder? Is there another thread I've missed?

[littlejack]

Hey to you all:
I have been watching this thread with interest since its beginning. I have always been interested in swaging, but I never could justify the
expense for the amount of shooting I do. This thread will give me the chance to experiment with the swaging aspect of bullet making
on a shoestring budget.
I started my venture on Saturday night.
I looked up dimensions in my reloading manuals on cartridges to swage bullets for my .41
magnum (.410). The 22-250 and the 250-3000 cartridges have the shoulder dimension listed at .414. This will be my swaging die. The 40 S&W case will become the jacket. The 40 case has a diameter of .423 and a length of .850.
First, I anealed some 40 cases.
I have a set of 22-250 dies. I removed the expander ball/decapping pin. I took the 40 case and lubed it with lanolin. I had to use a short piece of round stock to push the 40 case up into the 22-250 die. After some adjusting, it worked perfectly. The 40 case I then punched out of the rifle die with a smaller (.230) piece of rs, lightly tapping with a small hammer. The 40 case had a perfect truncated cone shape that matched the shoulder of the rifle die. It is 28* off of the 22-250 case centerline, with what will be a .250 meplat hole. The best part, was that at the base of the cone (where the cone and body of the case meet) the diameter was
.412.
OK, now time to pour some cores and try a filled case. I melted some pure lead and poured the 40 cases full, to different levels. I did not know as of yet how much core was going to be needed to make the finished bullet.
Now, I needed to seat the core. I realize that the core was poured, but I wanted to seat it for when I was using cast boolits or cast cores, I could get accustomed to the process. I used a home made black powder compression die to seat the core. It worked very well. It was very important NOT to compress the core with too much pressure. The more one compresses, the more the 40 case expands/bulges.
I lubed with the lanolin and pushed a core filled 40 case up into the 22-250 size die. Some of the cores were too full, some were too little, but one was just about right.
I tapped out the bullet and started measuring. The length was .872 with some of the core bleeding over the meplat. I filed off the excess core and the length is .850. The meplat is .265, the diameter at the cone base is .413. The base of the case, just above the ejecter groove is .432. The weight of the bullet is 283 grains, a little too heavy. I may also have to shorten the 40 cases to get the correct weight with the cores.
I will either make me a core mould or buy a Lee .401 175 tc grain mould for the cores. I want to finish with a 250 to 260 grain boolit.
I ordered a Lee .410 push through sizer die and push pin this morning from Grafs. After I finish swaging the bullet and cores as one, I can run the bullet through the Lee sizer die and get the .410 diameter I need.
I will probably get a 250-3000 die to make my final nose punch die with. The 22-250 seat die will only allow the pin to screw in from the top, as the pin is .250 threaded stock and machined smaller to go down through the top of the seater die. One needs to screw the pin in from the bottom of the die to get the proper nose form and length for the bullet when swaging.
I believe this will work very well fellas. If anyone has any tips or advice, I am all ears. I will keep you updated and let you all know my progress.
Jack

[OneShotNeeded]

Awesome... so what would be needed for 45ACP boolits? 45acp die set? Brass? A little confused but very interested.

[DukeInFlorida]

I'd like to be able to produce swaged bullets for my 454 casull and also for my 45-70 rounds.

I'm tagging this thread, and once I land in FL, will be trying to duplicate what has been started here.

[uncleskippy]

I am very interested. Please continue.

[littlejack]

For 45 acp, .451.
It looks to me like a person would need a 243 rifle die set. The shoulder dimension of the sizer die is .454 and the truncated cone angle would be 20*. You need to get some 45 acp cases. You will need a .451 Lee push through sizer kit.
One would need the same things for the .458 caliber, except the Lee sizer would need to be
.458, or the diameter you wanted, .457, .459 etc.
When seating the core in the 45acp case, use a little more pressure and the case will swell to over the .458 diameter. Then one could size it back to .458 with the Lee sizer die.
I ordered a Lee double cavity mould this morning with NO cavities cut in it. I will make my core mould out of this. I can figure out how much core I need for the weight of bullet I want and drill it out accourdingly.
I also orderd a 250 Savage die body to make my nose punch with.
All I need are these items, and time.
Jack

[Wayne Smith]

I'm currently using .357Sig (40 S&W) cases for half jackets with my Herter's die. From my experience let me tell you that if you both trim and anneal your cases, trim first, anneal second. Soft brass is a bitch to trim!

I thought one of the principles of swaging is to swage UP, not down. For that I need a nose punch in my die as a stop so that I can swage up to the .451-.452 diameter.

[danr]

for anyone attempting this, please be aware of this.

brass has spring back.. so if you want a .451 bullet, the lee .451 sizer die will make a .452 bullet or larger. this is very important because a .001 over sized bullet will mean extra pressures.

be absolutely sure of your bullet size before loading, and ALWAYS start at a minimum load for that weight of bullet. a minimum load will likely be an upper range load when shooting a .001 over sized bullet.. so be aware of this.. going a couple of grains under minimum would be considered taking things slow and safe.

i thought i would toss that out there.. when i made my 45 acp swage die, i noticed that the lee sizing die did produce a .001 larger bullet.. this has been the case for even my 40's and 38's and my 9mm's. since discovering this, i have made it a point to order a sizing die from lee that is .001 under sized for what i want my final size to be. worse case, you only have to lap it out a little if the spring back is not exactly .001..

another thing to be aware of, is that the LEE push through sizing dies are designed to work with LEAD only. not jacketed bullets.. what this means is that the Dies are somewhat soft steel. they will work, but could change in size over time, so make it a habit of always checking your final bullet sizes once your done. this way you'll be sure to notice when the sizing die needs replacing.

thanks,
Dan

[OneShotNeeded]

For 45 acp, .451.
It looks to me like a person would need a 243 rifle die set. The shoulder dimension of the sizer die is .454 and the truncated cone angle would be 20*. You need to get some 45 acp cases. You will need a .451 Lee push through sizer kit.
Jack

Hang on a sec are you using 45ACP brass to make the boolit? If so how are you mashing a case that is .480 at the rim into a .451 sizer die. Wouldn't this put way too much pressure on the die or even the press for that matter?

I kinda get the 243 die set to form the "ogive" but what are you using to seat the core?

Just a couple of questions.. sorry I'm still foggy..:killingpc

[danr]

i just use the swage die to seat the core.. do a half swage with the cup and core upside down.. then turn it over, then do a full swage.. always worked great for me, and it takes the rim from the ejector groove. so it kinda ends up like a semi boat tail.

:)
dan

[OneShotNeeded]

so the swage die you're referring to is the lee sizer? Or an actual swage die?

[littlejack]

Previously on another site, I ask about sizing an 8mm jacketed (.323) down to .312 for my Mosin Nagant. I was told of some of the problems that may take place when doing so. I was very appreciative of the advace from other members and stored the information in my mental safe. One of the issues mentioned was the "springback " of the jacket. Another was the pressure on the die from the jacketed bullet. Neither one of the issues mentioned has caused any problems. Hey, if the die breaks/cracks, it does. It is what it is. Like I said, "cheap intertainment" By the way, I am using a Rock Chucker II press.
I bought the Lee push through die set for .312 diameter. After receiving the same, I proceeded with my downsizing. I lubed the .323 round nose jacketed bullets. I prelubed the sizing die. The first bullet was hard to swage down, but the rest of the ones that I swaged, were very very easy. The size, came out exact, .312+. As far as springback, I do not know. I believe that the only way a person could tell if there was springback, was/is to split a sized down bullet in half and check. I must think, that if I run a jackets bullet through a size die of
.312 and it comes out .312+, there cannot be very much springback if any. Maybe the die is a shade big. My rifles bore slugs at .313.
The lead noses of the round nose bullets did extrude forward some, but just a minor amount. Just enough to be able to see/feel it with ones fingernail.
The only problem is that the rifle, so far does not like them or the load I tried. More R&D ahead. Great fun.
It was mentioned that the principles of swaging are to size up not down. That is correct as far as I know. But, we folks with limited income have to use what we can afford.

One Shot Needed, this is all theory and R&D for me. Do not take any dimensions I give or loads as GOSPHEL. This is all new to me as well as you'all. You fellas are all on your own.
I am just posting my results to maybe give you fellas some input on what you may do for yourselves. NEVER take what someone else is saying or doing as something you can do as well and be safe with it.
As stated on an earlier post, I used a black powder compressing die to seat the cores.
One can buy these from Buffalo Arms CO; just choose the right size.

Some more dies for the .451 would be the 7mm-08 or the 308.
Persons wanting to try for heavy jacketed .458 bullets might use 44 special or 44 magnum brass. One would need to make a de-rimming die.
Jack

[danr]

so the swage die you're referring to is the lee sizer? Or an actual swage die?

the point forming die.. the actual swage die.

[Wayne Smith]

i just use the swage die to seat the core.. do a half swage with the cup and core upside down.. then turn it over, then do a full swage.. always worked great for me, and it takes the rim from the ejector groove. so it kinda ends up like a semi boat tail.

:)
dan

Lee doesn't make a "swage" die! A sizing die has a hole through it, nothing to press the core in. I am very confused by your posts, Dan. I suspect that you know exactly what you are trying to say but are making assumptions that we know things that you have known for years but are strange and unknown to us. Thus we don't make the connections that you do.

[littlejack]

I believe Dan is referring to the rifle full length sizer die, for what ever cartridge you are using.
Jack

[danr]

Previously on another site, I ask about sizing an 8mm jacketed (.323) down to .312 for my Mosin Nagant. I was told of some of the problems that may take place when doing so. I was very appreciative of the advace from other members and stored the information in my mental safe. One of the issues mentioned was the "springback " of the jacket. Another was the pressure on the die from the jacketed bullet. Neither one of the issues mentioned has caused any problems. Hey, if the die breaks/cracks, it does. It is what it is. Like I said, "cheap intertainment" By the way, I am using a Rock Chucker II press.
I bought the Lee push through die set for .312 diameter. After receiving the same, I proceeded with my downsizing. I lubed the .323 round nose jacketed bullets. I prelubed the sizing die. The first bullet was hard to swage down, but the rest of the ones that I swaged, were very very easy. The size, came out exact, .312+. As far as springback, I do not know. I believe that the only way a person could tell if there was springback, was/is to split a sized down bullet in half and check. I must think, that if I run a jackets bullet through a size die of
.312 and it comes out .312+, there cannot be very much springback if any. Maybe the die is a shade big. My rifles bore slugs at .313.
The lead noses of the round nose bullets did extrude forward some, but just a minor amount. Just enough to be able to see/feel it with ones fingernail.
The only problem is that the rifle, so far does not like them or the load I tried. More R&D ahead. Great fun.
It was mentioned that the principles of swaging are to size up not down. That is correct as far as I know. But, we folks with limited income have to use what we can afford.

One Shot Needed, this is all theory and R&D for me. Do not take any dimensions I give or loads as GOSPHEL. This is all new to me as well as you'all. You fellas are all on your own.
I am just posting my results to maybe give you fellas some input on what you may do for yourselves. NEVER take what someone else is saying or doing as something you can do as well and be safe with it.
As stated on an earlier post, I used a black powder compressing die to seat the cores.
One can buy these from Buffalo Arms CO; just choose the right size.

Some more dies for the .451 would be the 7mm-08 or the 308.
Persons wanting to try for heavy jacketed .458 bullets might use 44 special or 44 magnum brass. One would need to make a de-rimming die.
Jack



yea, depending on the calipers used, you may only see a slight change from the lee sizing die to actual size. most calipers are hardly accurate to .001 little alone one ten thousands. great for checking your case lengths or COA's.. but not perfect.

also, the amount of sizing your adjusting makes a big difference of spring back as well.. .012 is allot of resizing.

i use a nice micrometer to check my sizes, which is accurate to 1 ten thousands.. and i am able to see spring back easily with them.. the more you change the less of a spring back.. but a slight .003 would result in a larger spring. this is more than likely because at larger changes your breaking past the spring of the brass, and pushing beyond it..

all be it, cheap is cheap.. you cant beat a dead horse if you didn't pay hardly anything for it.. as long as it works.. the money saved can be used in other ways.

its just important to note to newbies to ALWAYS use a reduced load, then work up.

it is very unlikely to crack a lee push through sizing die.. they are pretty damn soft.. so they will change in size more than anything else. your die in particular may have changed the lead-in size/shape .. this could explain why the first one was hard to resize, then afterwards it wasn't. the mass changes where done on the first sizing.. i mean .012 is ALLOT to size down.. but it just goes to show just how much you can push those cheapo dies.

also fair warning, dont try and swage 45's with a RCBS JR press.. they just dont have the cam to handle it.. i broke one of my JR2's 2 times. once the handle, then another time i snapped the pin in the ram. i was using a pry bar back in those days. now i use a nice rcbs RC which has no problems, and no pry bar needed.

:)
dan

[danr]

Lee doesn't make a "swage" die! A sizing die has a hole through it, nothing to press the core in. I am very confused by your posts, Dan. I suspect that you know exactly what you are trying to say but are making assumptions that we know things that you have known for years but are strange and unknown to us. Thus we don't make the connections that you do.

sorry about that.

once you change a reloading die (* full length sizing die *) to do swaging.. it becomes a swage die..

i was referring to that die.

the sizing die (* lee push through die *) is only used to re-size a finished projectile into final size for your firearm.

:)
dan

[danr]

here are some pics of a basic lee 17 rem sizing die converted into a 9mm, 38 or 357 swage die.

http://i43.tinypic.com/5bai4n.jpg

here is a close up of the ejection assembly.
http://i41.tinypic.com/wrav5k.jpg

here is a close up of the projectiles made. they come out sized at .355 at the top, and .357 at the base.. to use it as a 357/38spl swage die, you would have to lap the very top of the die to become .357 from top to bottom.
http://i42.tinypic.com/54u047.jpg


i did have to drill and tap the top of the 17 rem sizing die to be 1/2 inch 20 thread.. because lee uses a national pipe thread on them that you just cant get easily. they use a 1/8 pipe threader on a 3/8's shaft.. which is VERY strange.. it causes a taper to be created, this is what allows the decapping assembly to be held in place with the nut. granted it wasn't very easy to drill and tap the die, but using a lathe made it much easier.

for all of those who want to see a slightly different way of going about using a reloading sizing die to make it into a swage die.

thanks,
Dan

[danr]

i do have to admit, stealthshooter did a great job with his conversion..

[danr]

Dan, I appreciate the thought. Can you expand a little? What are the numbers after the parentheses? I fail to see how using a die of .441 will produce a bullet of .451? or are these a series of dies needed? This list just creates more questions in my mind. All I have done so far is use a set of Herter's dies to make 44 cal. half jackets. Using these Lee dies what goes into the shell holder? Is there another thread I've missed?

example here for 38 spl, and 357 projectile. projectile size is .357
223 rem for example, in the books it has a shoulder size of .354
but the actual size of the sizing die is .351, and the actual size of the seating die is .358

the 223 rem was used to get a baseline of what the actual size was compared to what the specs are in the book.

a sizing die would result in a bullet size of .003 smaller than spec shoulder, and a seating die would make a .004 over sized bullet.

the number 23 indicates the ANGLE of the shoulder. which would result in the general angle of the ogive if used as projectile swage die.

the LEE ( ??? ) note is something i noticed with lee manuals, they show a different spec size compared to speer.. so i made a note of it for my personal reference.

38 Spl & 357 (.357) lee (.356)
6x47mm (.357) 23 lee(.358)
**** 222 remington (.357) 23
223 remington (.354) 23 sizing die (.351) seat (.358)
17 remington (.356) 23 lee(.358)


so using the 223 as a reference, we can estimate that a 17 remington sizing die would be .003 under sized from spec shoulder size.. so it would make a .353 projectile at the top, then would taper to some unknown size depending on the length of projectile made. because lee manuals says spec is .358, then it could be .355 at shoulder.. if you where to use a lee 17 rem sizing die.. which i did use.. and did see a .355 size of projectile at the base of the ogive.

hope this helps,
thanks guys.
Dan

[Wayne Smith]

Dan, it helps a lot. I think I'm getting a glimmering of understanding now. Can I assume that other sizing dies have the same internal shape given SAMMI descriptions and limits? I.E. if I can pick up a single RCBS or Lyman etc. size die off eBay I would have the same ability without the problem of the Lee threading?

I like your solution for ejecting. Unfortunately in this context I am a Psychologist and woodworker with two wood lathes and no experience or ability to do metal work. I have to work with what is commonly available, thus the question about the other dies.

[danr]

Dan, it helps a lot. I think I'm getting a glimmering of understanding now. Can I assume that other sizing dies have the same internal shape given SAMMI descriptions and limits? I.E. if I can pick up a single RCBS or Lyman etc. size die off eBay I would have the same ability without the problem of the Lee threading?

I like your solution for ejecting. Unfortunately in this context I am a Psychologist and woodworker with two wood lathes and no experience or ability to do metal work. I have to work with what is commonly available, thus the question about the other dies.

yea, pretty much.. the 223 rem i used as a baseline was a RCBS die set.

once i got my lee die bodies i was able to confirm the baseline as correct.

heck, if you dont mind putting a rod into the top of the die every time to eject, you dont really have to make a ejector assembly.


:)
dan

[OneShotNeeded]

Danr

On the ejection assembly what did you use as the ejection rod? I take it you had to drill through the bolt.

[danr]

Danr

On the ejection assembly what did you use as the ejection rod? I take it you had to drill through the bolt.

yes, for the 17rem i did have to drill through the center of the 1/2-20 bolt.
the ejection rod is made from a .151 tempered Allen head bolt.

but for other calibers, i used the assembly nut that came with the die. then used a 1/4 inch allen head bolt.

really depends on the reloading die you use, and what kind of space you have to work with at the neck. you want a neck size to be larger than the hole in the top bolt.. this provides a good stop point.. other wise, you can use a stop point mechanism like i made for mine.

[Methuselah3]

I've read this post several times and have yet to figure how you can form a .357 bullet by shoving a core into a die which has a bottom opening in the range of .374. The shoulder diameter on the cartridge sizes mentioned for candidates is around .357+/- but quickly narrows to the bullet size for the cartridge.I can see a seated core being rolled over at the top and then shoving that thru a sizing die but I can't see any relation to a conventional "swage" die . And I can't see how a consistent bullet can be made without working it at pressure between stops. How do you keep the projectile in question centered for the initial rollover of the point?

[danr]

I've read this post several times and have yet to figure how you can form a .357 bullet by shoving a core into a die which has a bottom opening in the range of .374. The shoulder diameter on the cartridge sizes mentioned for candidates is around .357+/- but quickly narrows to the bullet size for the cartridge.I can see a seated core being rolled over at the top and then shoving that thru a sizing die but I can't see any relation to a conventional "swage" die . And I can't see how a consistent bullet can be made without working it at pressure between stops. How do you keep the projectile in question centered for the initial rollover of the point?

it doesn't have to do a complete rollover.. in all reality, when using reloading dies as swage dies, you're only doing a neck down on the projectile.. where the neck becomes the ogive of the projectile.

so, if you can imagine doing a neck down on a case, from say a 270 to a 30-06, its the same deal when making projectiles..

so, lets say your going to make a .451 from a 257 roberts die.
you would cut the 40 case down to the desired length, then fill it with lead. you would use a custom bottom punch to push the 40 case into the reloading die, until the top of the 40 case gets necked down to 257, leaving the shoulder near .451 or over. you end up with a slightly oversized 45 projectile, with a shoulder of a 257, after that you size it to .451 in a push through sizing die.. wala.. 45 projectile with an ogive made from the shoulder/neck of the 257 roberts.

for 357, 38, 380, 9mm, you need to use brass tubing, or copper tubing.. but is basically the same process. the only diff is that the tubing based projectile will not have a complete capped bottom.. some people have made roll over dies to close up the bottom before swaging the ogive onto it.

the term swaging, doesn't imply rolling over a point.. swaging only means to SHAPE while cold. so you can re-shape whatever into whatever, as long as its cold, your swaging.

:)
dan

[danr]

you can also use a bullet seating die, to put a rounded nose on the projectile, it takes very little pressure to do so. the normal average lyman seating die for pistol calibers works fine..

[Methuselah3]

you can also use a bullet seating die, to put a rounded nose on the projectile, it takes very little pressure to do so. the normal average lyman seating die for pistol calibers works fine..

Thanks danr. I'll try it tomorrow.I've got a set of ch4D .40 swage dies and a 243 die set so I'll seat a core and use the swage die punch to jamb it into the 243 sizer and see what it looks like. Way I see it is that will give a 6 mm meplat when adjusted if I understand correctly.I'm personally thinking about buying a set of 38 or similar steel dies from Lee to bore for swage components. That's cheaper than buying raw materials if I can true it up centered in my lathe. I like experimenting for myself too and you've done some great ground work for us that are hobbyists. How is your die production coming?
Jasper

[danr]

Thanks danr. I'll try it tomorrow.I've got a set of ch4D .40 swage dies and a 243 die set so I'll seat a core and use the swage die punch to jamb it into the 243 sizer and see what it looks like. Way I see it is that will give a 6 mm meplat when adjusted if I understand correctly.I'm personally thinking about buying a set of 38 or similar steel dies from Lee to bore for swage components. That's cheaper than buying raw materials if I can true it up centered in my lathe. I like experimenting for myself too and you've done some great ground work for us that are hobbyists. How is your die production coming?
Jasper

Fair warning, the lee dies are hardened.. working with hardened steel in a lathe is difficult to say the least. also the hardening is only skin deep.. so if you take any steel off, even .002 to .004 that area wont be hardened. also, i've tried to find out from lee what kind of steel they use so that i could put them through another hardening process, but they wont reveal what steel they use.. so re-hardening will be a royal pain.

the ch4d punch may not work very well.. its very short compared to the length of a reloading die cavity.
you maybe better off turning down a 3/8's bolt in your lathe to become a punch

the .243 has a Shoulder diameter of .454 so your projectile would be a little smaller than .454 if you used the case sizing die from the set. remember, the specs are SAMI.. so sizing dies are a little smaller, where seating dies are a little bigger than specs. remember your not using the reloading dies as a push through sizing die.. your utilizing the shoulder area as a ogive.. so the shoulder width is the key.

using reloading dies for swage dies only works for HANDGUN projectiles.. not rifle. rifle projectiles have a munch longer ogive to them, so a reloading die shoulder/neck is not long enough.

but if your just doing it to see what happens, then by all means, go for it.. the only way to learn is to try. i'm a big fan of trying new things. just be careful, watch the pressures your putting on the press and dies. breaking things is the hardest way to learn.. but you will learn something.. i'm sure you know this as a lathe owner yourself.

for making a punch from a bolt, just chuck it up on the threads of the bolt, face the end so the bolt head is about .128 then turn the head down so that it will fit into a ram like a shell holder does .533 ( just the nipple ), then turn the shaft down to the size of the projectile you want to make.. it should be right around the same size as the reloading die cavity. then do a part off at the chuck removing the threaded section.. its easy stuff with a rough right hand turning tool. i usually lap the final part with some 80 then 220 emery cloth before parting so it looks nice and clean.

use a nice long 3 inch bolt, the key to selecting the bolt is to make sure the head is large enough to become the nipple for the ram slot.

die business is going great. if you need anything let me know.. i'm even willing to share designs.. i don't profit from the designs, only the work i do. so my designs are considered open source.

thanks,
Dan

[drhall762]

Dan,

If the hardness on a Lee die is that shallow, they are probably just case hardened. My guess would be a low carbon steel. Try re-hardening with a pack carborizing compound.

Dave

[danr]

Dan,

If the hardness on a Lee die is that shallow, they are probably just case hardened. My guess would be a low carbon steel. Try re-hardening with a pack carborizing compound.

Dave

yea, could be.. i dunno.. its just easier for me to get one of my blanks out. i can make blanks for around $20 each, and that includes hardening to 50+rc.

:)
dan

[Methuselah3]

Fair warning, the lee dies are hardened.. working with hardened steel in a lathe is difficult to say the least. also the hardening is only skin deep.. so if you take any steel off, even .002 to .004 that area wont be hardened. also, i've tried to find out from lee what kind of steel they use so that i could put them through another hardening process, but they wont reveal what steel they use.. so re-hardening will be a royal pain.

the ch4d punch may not work very well.. its very short compared to the length of a reloading die cavity.
you maybe better off turning down a 3/8's bolt in your lathe to become a punch

the .243 has a Shoulder diameter of .454 so your projectile would be a little smaller than .454 if you used the case sizing die from the set. remember, the specs are SAMI.. so sizing dies are a little smaller, where seating dies are a little bigger than specs. remember your not using the reloading dies as a push through sizing die.. your utilizing the shoulder area as a ogive.. so the shoulder width is the key.

using reloading dies for swage dies only works for HANDGUN projectiles.. not rifle. rifle projectiles have a munch longer ogive to them, so a reloading die shoulder/neck is not long enough.

but if your just doing it to see what happens, then by all means, go for it.. the only way to learn is to try. i'm a big fan of trying new things. just be careful, watch the pressures your putting on the press and dies. breaking things is the hardest way to learn.. but you will learn something.. i'm sure you know this as a lathe owner yourself.

for making a punch from a bolt, just chuck it up on the threads of the bolt, face the end so the bolt head is about .128 then turn the head down so that it will fit into a ram like a shell holder does .533 ( just the nipple ), then turn the shaft down to the size of the projectile you want to make.. it should be right around the same size as the reloading die cavity. then do a part off at the chuck removing the threaded section.. its easy stuff with a rough right hand turning tool. i usually lap the final part with some 80 then 220 emery cloth before parting so it looks nice and clean.

use a nice long 3 inch bolt, the key to selecting the bolt is to make sure the head is large enough to become the nipple for the ram slot.

die business is going great. if you need anything let me know.. i'm even willing to share designs.. i don't profit from the designs, only the work i do. so my designs are considered open source.

thanks,
Dan

Thanks for the tip about the sizing die. Makes perfect sense now that you pointed it out. For turning grade 8 bolts, I made a new rod for my Rockchucker press and threaded the end 1/2" NF female threads. I drop it out of the press and chuck up a bolt with a nut loctited on the threads. That gives me up thru 45 cal for all the punches I should need for pistol.
Somewhere I recall a comment that Lee used 4150 but can't confirm the source. My guess is that it is nitrided or something similar to just make the surface hard according to your description.
Stole(borrowed) the bolt /rod idea from BTSniper.Made a 22 derim die for fun like that.Have you gotten into making reamers yet?I have a very small inventory of W1 drill rod but haven't ventured to trying to make rifle bullets with longer ogives. Mostly a pistol shooter anyway. Maybe someday I can make a ball turner for my lathe so I can cut radiuses . A few guys are lucky enough to have friends who can provide custom reamers good buddy style.
A good TV night for the less ambitious retiree tonight. Will try to post later when I've tried the tips you've given.
Thanks.

[danr]

yea, i have my reamers made by a professional reamer company.. i get them perfect from them every time. but they are expensive, around $100 - $150 each. they are carbide, and last a good long time, so its worth the extra money.

heck, if you already have a btsniper style ram in your RC press, that makes life much easier.

for chucking up bolts in your lathe, you can easily make a coilet by chucking up a bolt in your lathe so the thread is accessible for turning..
then put 2 nuts on the threads, lock them in place by turning them together..
then do a face on the outside nut.
then turn that nut until its round.
then un-chuck it from the lathe, leaving the bolts in place.
then use a good saw, and cut 4 slits down the sides of the bolt that you faced.. dont cut all the way down, leave about 1/8 of an inch left.
then remove the bolts.

the one you faced, rounded and slit, becomes your coilet. you can chuck that into your lathe, and thread a bolt into it, tighten the chuck, and it will hold the bolt in place without harming the threads.

this trick comes from the machinist manual's.. works great for making poor man coilets. they are not the best, so make sure you always center each time you change out the bolt its holding.

:)
dan

[Cane_man]

bump... old thread, anyone tried this lately, swaging pistol bullets using Lee rifle dies?

i am thinking about using the Lee 220 Swift sizing die as a point forming die with 9mm cases to make 0.40SW bullets, anyone done this lately?

[danr]

bump... old thread, anyone tried this lately, swaging pistol bullets using Lee rifle dies?

i am thinking about using the Lee 220 Swift sizing die as a point forming die with 9mm cases to make 0.40SW bullets, anyone done this lately?

i'm using that same die for 40 cal's right now to make my 40's. works great.

one catch, is that the lee sizing dies has a small air bleed hole in the ogive, it will leave a small mark on the side of your projectiles, but its no big deal. i still get great accuracy with them.

you'll also want to make a core seating die to bump the 9mm cases to a bit larger before swaging, or you'll end up with wrinkles.

cheers,
Dan

[Cane_man]

i was wondering what that "burr" looking thing was on the ogive... from the air bleed, makes sense, maybe the hole can be plugged somehow (JB Weld?)

i found that the 222 Rem sizing die can be used as a decent core seating die (using the lower half), it will swage up to 0.397 then point form in the 220 Swift... just need a short section of round stock between the shoulder forming part of the 222 die and the base of the bullet

how are you sizing down the bullet after point forming? coming out of the 220 Swift sizing die the diameter at the beginning of the ogive is around 0.402 and gets slightly bigger toward the base of the bullet around 0.406...

[danr]

i was wondering what that "burr" looking thing was on the ogive... from the air bleed, makes sense, maybe the hole can be plugged somehow (JB Weld?)

i found that the 222 Rem sizing die can be used as a decent core swaging die (using the lower half), it will swage up to 0.397 then point form in the 220 Swift... just need a short section of round stock between the shoulder forming part of the 222 die and the base of the bullet

how are you sizing down the bullet after point forming? coming out of the 220 Swift sizing die the diameter at the beginning of the ogive is around 0.402 and gets slightly bigger toward the base of the bullet around 0.406...

i made a sizing die on my lathe.

you maybe able to get a lead bullet sizing die from lee, though, i'm not sure what the spring back would be so, you may have to get two of them.

i went through this once before with lee bullet sizing dies in my early days before i got a lathe. i ordered a .224 sizing die, then discovered that the spring back was bringing them to .225, then i ordered a .223 sizing die, to make them come out at .224. then i turned around and resold the .224 sizing die on craigslist.

i'm pretty sure that the 9mm's will also have spring back.

when i made my 9mm bullet sizing die, i just lapped it until the bullets came out the correct size. having a lathe lowers costs.

:)
dan

oh and JB weld to fill the air hole, good luck, i tried everything including TIG, and it never worked out so well.

[Cane_man]

i am trying to make this project with my wimpy little 7x12 hobby lathe, the timing belt broke today when i tried to drill out a hole in a 5/8" grade 5 bolt! but what i am going to try is to use the Lee powder thru expanding die for a .500SW as the die body (because it is threaded and my lathe won't cooperate with making 7/8-14 threads), and put different inserts inside of it for whatever i am trying to do like size the core, seat/swage the core, size the final bullet, and eventually make a point forming insert (ya right :) )... the threads for the Lee expander die are 5/8-18, and a bolt on top will secure the insert and it can be drilled out for a punch or as a pass thru the top for sizing, etc.... that is the plan anyway, not sure how it will go... for now, i will have to use the 220 Swift sizing die for my point forming, and it looks like it will do just fine

for the die inserts i am going to give 12L14 a try because it plays so nice with my lathe, and then try to case harden the inside bore by carburizing the inside surface with either something like Cherry Red hardening compound, or use one of those homemade mixtures (crushed wood charcoal, barium chloride, sodium carbonate, and calcium carbonate) and place the insert with the mixture in a 3/4" threaded pipe (with a vent hole of course) and put it in the coals of fire for a few hours and quench in oil... i have read that leather works well also as a carburizing agent, and that maybe much easier to use

this project is too much fun, and this thread is such a great resource for making the poor man's .40SW swage

[danr]

i am trying to make this project with my wimpy little 7x12 hobby lathe, the timing belt broke today when i tried to drill out a hole in a 5/8" grade 5 bolt! but what i am going to try is to use the Lee powder thru expanding die for a .500SW as the die body (because it is threaded and my lathe won't cooperate with making 7/8-14 threads), and put different inserts inside of it for whatever i am trying to do like size the core, seat/swage the core, size the final bullet, and eventually make a point forming insert (ya right :) )... the threads for the Lee expander die are 5/8-18, and a bolt on top will secure the insert and it can be drilled out for a punch or as a pass thru the top for sizing, etc.... that is the plan anyway, not sure how it will go... for now, i will have to use the 220 Swift sizing die for my point forming, and it looks like it will do just fine

for the die inserts i am going to give 12L14 a try because it plays so nice with my lathe, and then try to case harden the inside bore by carburizing the inside surface with either something like Cherry Red hardening compound, or use one of those homemade mixtures (crushed wood charcoal, barium chloride, sodium carbonate, and calcium carbonate) and place the insert with the mixture in a 3/4" threaded pipe (with a vent hole of course) and put it in the coals of fire for a few hours and quench in oil... i have read that leather works well also as a carburizing agent, and that maybe much easier to use

this project is too much fun, and this thread is such a great resource for making the poor man's .40SW swage

great idea using the lee powder thru expanding die.

when your trying to drill your center on your lathe, remember, LATHE DRILL BITS have a negative inclination, as compared to a normal drill bit with a positive inclination. if your not up with the terms, it means that with normal drill bits, the cut on the tip causes the bit to be pulled into the work. lathe bits are just the apposite, they push away from the work. so if your trying to drill your holes with a normal drill bit, you'll run into lots of problems.
with soft steels, its not so bad, but the harder steels, its nothing but problems. get your self a drill guide and re-sharpen your drills bits for lathe work. drill guides can be purchased at freight harbor ultra cheap.

you would be surprised, 12l14 is pretty hard, and it will do just fine for core swaging without hardening. also, be for warned. improper hardening of 12l14 will only result in annealing it. bad juju.

12L14 should be put through a hardening process if its going to be sizing though.

a little trick for threading on lathes, is to use a thread die, and your tail stock as a guide. check youtube for how to die thread on a lathe with a tail stock guide. its VERY easy to make a guide. the basic is that the guide chucks into your tailstock, and gives a plumb 90 degree surface for the thread die to rest on while you start the threading. turning your head stock BY HAND. not to be done under power. i use a modified socket extender in my chuck key slot as a torque bar while threading.

in all reality, making dies for the first time is a learning experience, after about 3 or 4 attempts, you'll be amazed at how easy it is. just remember, Take NOTES and pictures, so that you can go back over your work in case something doesn't work.. so that you can modify your plan to correct the problem. otherwise, you'll be trying to remember, which drill did i use for that step?!.. lol.

also, it would be great if you could share your experiences with everyone here.. we would all benefit from it.

thanks,
Dan

[30yrcaster]

i am trying to make this project with my wimpy little 7x12 hobby lathe, the timing belt broke today when i tried to drill out a hole in a 5/8" grade 5 bolt! but what i am going to try is to use the Lee powder thru expanding die for a .500SW as the die body (because it is threaded and my lathe won't cooperate with making 7/8-14 threads)
What type of problems did you have trying to do 7/8x14 threads on your 7x lathe?

[Cane_man]

What type of problems did you have trying to do 7/8x14 threads on your 7x lathe?

the tool bit would dig into the material and bind up the spindle and freeze it up! too much play in the cross slide... didn't seem to matter how little i advanced the bit, eventually it would lock up after a few passes... i think the diameter is just too big for this little lathe and the material too tough (grade 5 bolt)... danr had a suggestion that seems promising and that is to look into a tail stock attachment that enables you to do the whole thing by hand with a thread cutting die...

no worries, though, as i am going to avoid threading all together and use a Lee Powder Through Expander as my threaded die body, and then turn inserts that will drop into it... the die bodies are about $17 delivered from Lee, and the inserts are easy enough to turn, drill, and lap on the lathe... the dreaded point forming die will be avoided for now as I will use the 220 Swift sizing die to form the ogive (another $17), works like a charm... if you already have the lathe (and either 9mm or 357 mag casting dies), you can complete this project for probably around $100 for a complete 9mm to 40SW swaging system... i am using a Lyman 357466 die that drops 362gr 0.360 boolits, cutting the ogive off with some tin snips and when they drop in the 9mm case they come out between 175-180 gr!

when i get around to the point forming die i will try to shape an ogive cutting D reamer and see if i can make that work... but that will happen at the end...

[rbuck351]

I got some bullets from a fellow that was doing something similar. He fully annealed the 40s&w cases, pushed them into a 308Win Sizing die to get the tapered nose. He then pushed the cases through a 410 sizer die. Very little spring back when fully annealed. Then he made a couple of simple tools for his press, He used a short piece of all thread lathe faced on one end to be flat and square. The other tool is just a short fat punch that fits in the press ram. The flat ended allthread is put in the top of the press flat end down and the punch goes in the ram. Set a prepped 40S&W case on the punch and raise the ram all the way, then screw the flat all thread down until it touches the prepped case. Now you heat up your bottom pour lead pot with some prepped cases on the rim of the pot to heat. When lead is melted, grab a case with pliers, overfill slightly with lead, quickly place on punch and raise ram to flatten top of bullet and squish off extra lead. Set aside to cool. For rifle bullets with a longer taper on the nose use a 22jet sizer die. The trick is to find a case just a little larger than you want your finished bullet to be, cut it to desired length, anneal to dead soft, size it with the ogive you want and fill it with melted lead. With a drop of soldering paste in the case you may have a bonded core. You could cut your own ogive using a D reamer in 7x14 all thread without it having to be super hard or super smooth as you would just be ejecting an empty fully formed jacket with no serious pressure swaging going on. I think I'm going to give this a try using 10mm cases in my 416Rem. Cutoff 223 cases will work in the 358Norma. This isn't really swaging but it should give you a jacketed bullet without the $800 dies and it wouldn't even put a strain on a normal loading press. Might be a little harder to do with a tiny 22cal bullet though.

[Cane_man]

^^^ that is interesting



great idea using the lee powder thru expanding die.

when your trying to drill your center on your lathe, remember, LATHE DRILL BITS have a negative inclination, as compared to a normal drill bit with a positive inclination. if your not up with the terms, it means that with normal drill bits, the cut on the tip causes the bit to be pulled into the work. lathe bits are just the apposite, they push away from the work. so if your trying to drill your holes with a normal drill bit, you'll run into lots of problems.
with soft steels, its not so bad, but the harder steels, its nothing but problems. get your self a drill guide and re-sharpen your drills bits for lathe work. drill guides can be purchased at freight harbor ultra cheap.

you would be surprised, 12l14 is pretty hard, and it will do just fine for core swaging without hardening. also, be for warned. improper hardening of 12l14 will only result in annealing it. bad juju.

12L14 should be put through a hardening process if its going to be sizing though.

a little trick for threading on lathes, is to use a thread die, and your tail stock as a guide. check youtube for how to die thread on a lathe with a tail stock guide. its VERY easy to make a guide. the basic is that the guide chucks into your tailstock, and gives a plumb 90 degree surface for the thread die to rest on while you start the threading. turning your head stock BY HAND. not to be done under power. i use a modified socket extender in my chuck key slot as a torque bar while threading.

in all reality, making dies for the first time is a learning experience, after about 3 or 4 attempts, you'll be amazed at how easy it is. just remember, Take NOTES and pictures, so that you can go back over your work in case something doesn't work.. so that you can modify your plan to correct the problem. otherwise, you'll be trying to remember, which drill did i use for that step?!.. lol.

also, it would be great if you could share your experiences with everyone here.. we would all benefit from it.

thanks,
Dan


ordered the drill guide, will check out how to sharpen for lathe work...

thanks for your insight i appreciate it... regarding the case hardening, i plan to try it on simple pass thru sizing insert, if it doesn't work then there won't be much lost as they are easy to make out of 5/8" 12L14 and it won't be like starting over making a die body, threading it inside out and, etc.

maybe i will start a new thread that would be like a progress report/diary as this will take me probably several weeks... if you read it and add advice and experience!!! :)

first die i will make is the core sizer, so i can size these 357466 bullets to 0.355, as this will enable me to try a sort of "proof of concept" with the Lee die body and drop in inserts, and the case hardening... then if it works go on to the core swage and point forming dies...

one area i dont get at all is lapping... i understand the mandrel type lap explained in the SAS booklet, and how to make it and how to use to use it for thru holes... but for the life of me I don't understand his drawing for the point forming lap as shown in the SAS booklet and how to lap a blind hole like the point forming die... :?

edit: random thought, perhaps the drill guide could be useful in shaping ogive reamers on the bench grinder?

[Cane_man]

success!

can't say it was easy, but this is a 10mm 200gr FBHP j-word made with swage dies fabricated from a bench top 7x12 hobby lathe and a few Lee die bodies with entire project cost < $100, the bullet was made from a 9mm range pickup case and a 357466 cast boolit with the ogive trimmed off and swaged using my RCBS Rockchucker:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/10mm200gr_zps8c4cf713.jpg

let me know if you want details, thanks to danr and the archives for 90% of the details for this project... swage on

i plan to test these at the range on monday

[danr]

success!

can't say it was easy, but this is a 10mm 200gr FBHP j-word with swage dies made using a bench top 7x12 hobby lathe and a few Lee die bodies, the bullet was made from a 9mm range pickup case and a 357466 cast boolit with the ogive trimmed off:


let me know if you want details, thanks to danr and the archives for 90% of the details for this project... swage on

i plan to test these at the range on monday

Nicely Done.

now, figure this out out.. make the jacket roll into the hollow points.. like this -->

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee419/kainedies/9mm-2.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/kainedies/media/9mm-2.jpg.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee419/kainedies/9mm-1.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/kainedies/media/9mm-1.jpg.html)


you can do this with a 45 bullet seating die, where you press the half swaged projectile into the seating die, this causes the nose to be made smaller and close in.. then finish swaging the projectile.. you'll notice it nicely curves the noise right into the hollow point.

:)
Dan

[Cane_man]

^^^ LOL, that was my next step, figure out how to make the lip of the meplat roll over, i'll pull out my 45 seater and play with it, thanks again...

danr is the man for swagin' on the cheap! :guntootsmiley:

[danr]

^^^ LOL, that was my next step, figure out how to make the lip of the meplat roll over, i'll pull out my 45 seater and play with it, thanks again...

danr is the man for swagin' on the cheap! :guntootsmiley:

oh and, did i mention, that when you roll the nose into the hp, you no longer have to trim the cases.

but dont forget, this is not my thread, the credit should go to stealthshooter who started this thread making his own 45 cal swage dies.. his came out really nice, and set the standard for home made swage dies to a new level.


thanks stealthshooter, and great job cane_man.
dan

[Cane_man]

stealthshooter, wherever you are a big thank you for this concept of being able to swage on the cheap and swage at home for $0.10 on the dollar compared to commercial dies :drinks:

danr, having difficulty getting the nose to roll over... my 45 acp seating die did not like my swaged cores, so a i turned a die that would slightly round and flatten the rim of the case, but when i tried to point form in the 220Sw resizing die it swaged the roll/flat end to the mouth right out... any suggestions? what type of internal cavity shape should i make to get that rim to roll over, and will i need some type of special punch to get the rim to turn down?

i did get to fooling around with a notching die, and after turning an insert and drilling it out 1/4" and used a triangular file to notch it had some success (this is an ugly prototype for proof of concept):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/notch_zpsc810d9fd.jpg

these inserts are super easy to turn on the lathe, and if you use 9/16" round stock you don't have to turn the OD they just drop right into the Lee expander die as is!

[danr]

stealthshooter, wherever you are a big thank you for this concept of being able to swage on the cheap and swage at home for $0.10 on the dollar compared to commercial dies :drinks:

danr, having difficulty getting the nose to roll over... my 45 acp seating die did not like my swaged cores, so a i turned a die that would slightly round and flatten the rim of the case, but when i tried to point form in the 220Sw resizing die it swaged the roll/flat end to the mouth right out... any suggestions? what type of internal cavity shape should i make to get that rim to roll over, and will i need some type of special punch to get the rim to turn down?

i did get to fooling around with a notching die, and after turning an insert and drilling it out 1/4" and used a triangular file to notch it had some success (this is an ugly prototype for proof of concept):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/notch_zpsc810d9fd.jpg

these inserts are super easy to turn on the lathe, and if you use 9/16" round stock you don't have to turn the OD they just drop right into the Lee expander die as is!

actualy, that notching punch looked pretty good. the resulting projectile wasn't bad either. keep up the good work.. in reality, it dont matter what it looks like when your only making it for your use.. what matters is how well it works for you.

my 45 seating die has a round nose cavity in the top seating punch, which causes the nose of swaged projectile to curve the nose inward, almost to the point of closing it off. i started out trying to figure out how to make an extra die to close off the projectiles 100% for a full metal jacket with no seams. but ended up leaving it when i was able to roll the nose enough for the really nice hollow points.

here is a picture of my 45 acp top seating punch, and a picture of my notching punch that i use with my 45 seating die.

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee419/kainedies/roll-and-notch-01.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/kainedies/media/roll-and-notch-01.jpg.html)

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee419/kainedies/roll-and-notch-02.jpg (http://s1226.photobucket.com/user/kainedies/media/roll-and-notch-02.jpg.html)

i have yet to try and do a notched rolled nose combining the two.. maybe after i'm done moving, i'll try it out.

:)
Dan

[slim1836]

Wow, what info to be had, just wish I had the brain to comprehend it all.

CAN YOU SAY STICKEY?

Slim

[GunWhoreDer]

here are some pics of a basic lee 17 rem sizing die converted into a 9mm, 38 or 357 swage die.

http://i43.tinypic.com/5bai4n.jpg

here is a close up of the ejection assembly.
http://i41.tinypic.com/wrav5k.jpg

thanks,
Dan

Hi danr, please explain the Ejector system. Is it like BTSnipers Auto Ejector or do you still have to bang the top with a hammer to knock them back out? How is it mounted to the press? How does it function? Any video link to your setup by chance?
Thanks, GunWhoreDer

[Whiterabbit]

I see bolts with the threads turned off. Last time I tried that I broke the tip of my HSS bit. Repeatedly. Any tips for cleanly turning threads off?

[customcutter]

I see bolts with the threads turned off. Last time I tried that I broke the tip of my HSS bit. Repeatedly. Any tips for cleanly turning threads off?

Did you start at the OD of the threads? Also take small cuts, it will be an interrupted cut until you get down below the original threads. I've cut the threads off of several grade 8 bolts no problem. I took light .010 cuts, till I got down below the threads.

CC

[Whiterabbit]

I did start at the OD of the threads. But pretend I'm a woodworker who is teaching himself metalworking (failing as often as I'm succeeding). I recognize and understand the concept of the interrupted cut based on title alone. I've made interrupted cuts a few times and notice either the cut or the finish is poor compared to uh, 'non' interrupted cuts.

Can you tell me the mechanical significance of interrupted cuts, and what real machinists do (what settings they change?) different when making interrupted cuts vs working with solid material?

Thanks!

[customcutter]

Whiterabbit,

I'm not a machinist, not even pretending to be. Heck I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn last night. Sounds like you're a beginner so forgive me if I get to simple. The size of your lathe has a lot to do with it. You said you are using HSS so I'm going to assume that the tool is sharp and properly ground, with relief angles, etc. Did you set the tool height at the center of the cut? The cutting edge should be at the same height from the ways as the tip of the live center (dead center) in the tailstock. If it is too high it won't cut, if it is too low it will chatter or dig in if not a rigid tool post and fed in too far. If all that is correct, I would try cutting .010-.015 inch per cut. There are some good online resources available. Try to get a copy of the "Southbend How To Run a Lathe". Also you tube is a good source. TubalCaine(sp) or MrPete on you tube is one of the best tutorial videos I've seen but there are others.

Hope this helps,
CC

[Whiterabbit]

so when making interrupted cuts, you don't change your feeds or speeds?

[customcutter]

so when making interrupted cuts, you don't change your feeds or speeds?

I'm not really qualified to answer. But no, I would still turn at the same RPM, you might try reducing the depth of cut to .010-.015, and slow your feed rate. (I guess it's possible, if you were cutting with carbide and feed in to heavy a cut you might shatter the carbide.) I don't know if you have a quick change gear box for threading? If so, I wouldn't feed at 4 TPI, the slower your feed rate the better the finish you will get.

If you do a google search, you will find ton's of info. Just search "how to operate a metal lathe"

CC

[Whiterabbit]

Thanks.

I wasn't being clear in my questioning. I was not asking "hey golly, how do I machine metal in general?", but rather was asking "do you change your feeds and speeds when you make interrupted cuts." I think you've answered that now.

[customcutter]

Not a problem, I've had a lathe for almost 25 years. Never tried cutting a thread till just a couple of weeks ago. I don't mind helping at all. A lot of people have helped me. One thing I don't like though is giving wrong or bad info. So it's hard for me to answer the question under those circumstances. BTW those threads I cut, they'll hold the die in the press, but no way would I send that kind of work out to someone.[smilie=1: I'm still learning a lot myself, that's why I want to try making a set of dies, a couple of molds and a press. I own a 14X40 lathe, a 6X28 mill, and a 9X42 mill that I'm converting to CNC to run with Linux, a 6X18 surface grinder, a couple of bandsaws, several belt sanders, etc. However, I just tinker with them, I'm not really qualified to operate any of them. I don't know CAD/CAM or G-code, but I've got about $4,000 invested in getting this mill operational. I'll worry about learning how to operate/program it now that I've finally got the hardware installed, and finished the conversion of the control system from Bobcad to linuxcnc. Like I said lots of folks have helped me, so I'll try to help where I can.

CC

[Sasquatch-1]

Are these still in service?


I spent a couple hours with my drill press and dremel tool yesterday. I built a core seating die and a nose forming die with a round nose punch and a hollow point punch. The bullets in the picture were made with my dies. The hollow point weighs 330 grains and the round nose weighs 360 grains. I'm pretty happy with them :redneck:


http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab278/shayn8103/IMG_20111108_133058.jpg

[bbailey7821]

Very nice, on the cheap!

[Randy C]

Looks like fun but I never have that much time, My wife keeps me busy on my days off If I spend to much time in the gun room I can here her sighing.

[chrissy4560]

I am very interested in what you did. Could you PM mewith more directions? I would like to try your hollow point and maybe a FMJ ifthat is possible with your set up....
John

[uncleskippy]

I am very interested in what you did. Could you PM mewith more directions? I would like to try your hollow point and maybe a FMJ ifthat is possible with your set up....
John


I would like some more direction also like what length to cut 40 cal cases for 45 jackets

Thanks

[rmund]

it doesn't have to do a complete rollover.. in all reality, when using reloading dies as swage dies, you're only doing a neck down on the projectile.. where the neck becomes the ogive of the projectile.

so, if you can imagine doing a neck down on a case, from say a 270 to a 30-06, its the same deal when making projectiles..

so, lets say your going to make a .451 from a 257 roberts die.
you would cut the 40 case down to the desired length, then fill it with lead. you would use a custom bottom punch to push the 40 case into the reloading die, until the top of the 40 case gets necked down to 257, leaving the shoulder near .451 or over. you end up with a slightly oversized 45 projectile, with a shoulder of a 257, after that you size it to .451 in a push through sizing die.. wala.. 45 projectile with an ogive made from the shoulder/neck of the 257 roberts.

for 357, 38, 380, 9mm, you need to use brass tubing, or copper tubing.. but is basically the same process. the only diff is that the tubing based projectile will not have a complete capped bottom.. some people have made roll over dies to close up the bottom before swaging the ogive onto it.

the term swaging, doesn't imply rolling over a point.. swaging only means to SHAPE while cold. so you can re-shape whatever into whatever, as long as its cold, your swaging.

:)
dan
i have an old 7mm-08 die set, I want to make 45 acp bullets, where can I get a custom punch ( and what size should it be) to push it into the die?

[slim1836]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gSm--Oj4q0

Slim

[kc3ak]

Is it possible to get some information on the length the 40 is cut to? I have everything listed in the video except for the 451 Lee sizer, and that would be easy to pick up. But I sure would like to have some idea on the length to cut the brass before I start. Thanks for any help guys.

[slim1836]

Per one of the comments on the above link:

"We trimmed our brass to .670" for 230 grainers, you may need to go shorter if you want 200 or 185 grains. No need to size the cast bullets you are going to use as the core."

Slim

[rmund]

Ditto on the length!

[kc3ak]

Thanks, I must have missed it. I read the whole post, but sometimes things slip by me. I will be ordering a 3 die set from RCE in about 2 months (that's the time frame the wife gave me). And I can get all the 40 brass I want at scrap prices, so I'm getting a bit anxious. I have 3 different 45s to use the little pretties in, too. Come on 2 months........

[slim1836]

I just wonder why anyone would go through the trouble of swaging for .45's if you are only going to push a bullet under 1000FPS?
Seems a cast boolit would do just as well, unless you want the expansion of the casing.

Slim

[PerpetualStudent]

This thread has been absolutely fascinating.

I've wandered in here many times before I actually joined the forum. Back then I was just searching about swaging in general: jacketed bullets? No dealing with molten metal? Sign me up! Then I had a severe case of sticker shock and turned away in depression. Now you've got me looking down the rabbit hole again.

Am I misreading this, or is actually almost as simple as using a sturdy press (RCBS) with a normal die for reloading (a full re-sizing die whose cartridge shoulder matches the diameter bullet you're going for)?

Issues of springback, final sizing, and bullet weight make it more complicated. But in broad strokes, is that accurate?

[uncle dino]

Perpetual student In broad strokes it is that simple. Spring back, figuring bullet weight, and final sizing is just part of the process. Not complex at all. d

[just bill]

This thread has been absolutely fascinating.

I've wandered in here many times before I actually joined the forum. Back then I was just searching about swaging in general: jacketed bullets? No dealing with molten metal? Sign me up! Then I had a severe case of sticker shock and turned away in depression. Now you've got me looking down the rabbit hole again.

Am I misreading this, or is actually almost as simple as using a sturdy press (RCBS) with a normal die for reloading (a full re-sizing die whose cartridge shoulder matches the diameter bullet you're going for)?

Issues of springback, final sizing, and bullet weight make it more complicated. But in broad strokes, is that accurate?

If you want simplistic approaches to swaging, YouTube mannyCA and see how he uses all reloading dies to swage with cast boolet cores and spent brass for projectiles.

[Forrest r]

I just wonder why anyone would go through the trouble of swaging for .45's if you are only going to push a bullet under 1000FPS?
Seems a cast boolit would do just as well, unless you want the expansion of the casing.

Slim

I make them for the 45acp simply because I already had the push thru sizing die and the a notch forming die and the bullet mold for the cores. So I spent $5 at a gunshow for a used 243 winchester fl die to use as point forming die.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/45acpchrony_zps82e18452.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/45acpchrony_zps82e18452.jpg.html)

A close-up of the 225gr hp's for the 45acp, made these with out trimming the 40s&w cases.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/225g45acp_zps78339b4a.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/225g45acp_zps78339b4a.jpg.html)

I originally started swaging bullets out of shell cases because I wanted to make jacketed bullets for the 44mag's. After trying several different things I ended up with these 265gr hp's. These were made with un-trimmed 40s&w cases and a nothing die and a Cheap lee 6mm/244rem fl sizing die.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/265g44s_zps1c48dd6f.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/265g44s_zps1c48dd6f.jpg.html)

Plinking loads with those 265gr hp's in a 6" bbl'd 629.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44magchrony_zpscd769e68.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44magchrony_zpscd769e68.jpg.html)

Some 147gr hp's made from 380acp cases untrimmed and using a 222rem fl sizing die as a nose forming die.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/20038s_zps31b10993.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/20038s_zps31b10993.jpg.html)


I run them thru a lee push thru sizing die after they're swaged, .357 for 38spl's/357mag's and .356 for the 9mm's.

Anyway, nothing more then cheap dies, free range brass and free range lead for the cores.

[just bill]

I make them for the 45acp simply because I already had the push thru sizing die and the a notch forming die and the bullet mold for the cores. So I spent $5 at a gunshow for a used 243 winchester fl die to use as point forming die.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/45acpchrony_zps82e18452.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/45acpchrony_zps82e18452.jpg.html)

A close-up of the 225gr hp's for the 45acp, made these with out trimming the 40s&w cases.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/225g45acp_zps78339b4a.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/225g45acp_zps78339b4a.jpg.html)

I originally started swaging bullets out of shell cases because I wanted to make jacketed bullets for the 44mag's. After trying several different things I ended up with these 265gr hp's. These were made with un-trimmed 40s&w cases and a nothing die and a Cheap lee 6mm/244rem fl sizing die.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/265g44s_zps1c48dd6f.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/265g44s_zps1c48dd6f.jpg.html)

Plinking loads with those 265gr hp's in a 6" bbl'd 629.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44magchrony_zpscd769e68.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44magchrony_zpscd769e68.jpg.html)

Some 147gr hp's made from 380acp cases untrimmed and using a 222rem fl sizing die as a nose forming die.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/20038s_zps31b10993.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/20038s_zps31b10993.jpg.html)


I run them thru a lee push thru sizing die after they're swaged, .357 for 38spl's/357mag's and .356 for the 9mm's.

Anyway, nothing more then cheap dies, free range brass and free range lead for the cores.

What are you using for your.357 cores. Is it a cast boolet or just a sized core. I'm trying to make core molds from worn out Lee 6 cavity.
Bill

[Forrest r]

Both. Those bullets pictures above have a 93gr cast 32cal bullet or I'll use a lee 311-931r. I also made a core mold for heavier (180gr) bullets for the 357.

[PerpetualStudent]

While watching the MannyCA vids on swaging I started looking at the RCBS single stage presses just generally. Their Ammomaster2 is specifically rated for swaging, much pricier than the one in Manny's videos but it mentions in the manual that you can swage on it. The selling point seems to be more "you can reload .50 BMG" but if you tend to baby your equipment a bit- that might be a good option.

I also just found this page on the Corbin site ( http://www.corbins.com/reload.htm ) which explicitly says you can use a reloading press.

Thought that might be of use to lurkers :-)

[rbuck351]

I have been making a couple of different bullets by just annealing and sizing a case (40S&W) to, .410 shoving it into a 308 die to get the ogive I want and then filling with melted lead. .358 bullets for the 35Rem. 350 Rem and 358N by cutting off 223 cases, annealing, sizing, shoving into a 22jet die for ogive and filling with melted lead. I have never seen the point of swaging for bullets under about 1100 fps.

[bruce drake]

ping.
bringing this up to the top to read later this weekend.

[carbine86]

I have been making a couple of different bullets by just annealing and sizing a case (40S&W) to, .410 shoving it into a 308 die to get the ogive I want and then filling with melted lead. .358 bullets for the 35Rem. 350 Rem and 358N by cutting off 223 cases, annealing, sizing, shoving into a 22jet die for ogive and filling with melted lead. I have never seen the point of swaging for bullets under about 1100 fps.
Care to share some of the case length after you cut and what you are getting for bullet weight with those associated lengths?
thanks